2009/2010 Programs

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Two dimentional Quads or any other jump on tape that is deemed underrotated by a poster, are strictly in the eye of the poster. More than JMO.

 

[Buttercup]

Two dimentional Quads or any other jump on tape that is deemed underrotated by a poster, are strictly in the eye of the poster.

Well, UR or not, that program is not well-choreographed and the music cuts are bad. Chan should demand his money back. It's essentially a collection of elements designed to get points, and while some would argue this is a CoP thing, I think we've seen skaters do high-scoring elements while still skating an artistically meaningul program.

IMO, a skater should be hit with low component scores on choreo, interpretation and P&E for something like that. There is no real artistic merit to that program, for which I blame Lori Nichol, not Patrick. He has the talent to do better, and she should have provided him with a vehicle that would allow him to shine. POTO is not that vehicle in its current form. And next season, the tango comparison may not be to Chan's benefit in the SP; Dai has a better one.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Do you think your opinion of the program would improve with a better viewing of it (ie, professional taping) along with a better performance (ie, less than four falls and cleaner triples). I have issues with the music cuts as well, but I wonder if the program itself could improve over the season to overcome your objections.

 

[Buttercup]

Do you think you're opinion of the program would improve with a better viewing of it (ie, professional taping) along with a better performance (ie, less than four falls and cleaner triples). I have issues with the music cuts as well, but I wonder if the program itself could improve over the season to overcome your objections.

It's no secret here that I am not overly fond of Chan as a skater and find the hype about him off-putting, so do take that into account. With that caveat, I think the answer for me is yes and no.

Re the P&E, with a better performance - of course it should be higher. But even with a cleaner skate, I really dislike the choreography and I think it's doing Chan a disservice. As I wrote, he has the skills and the talent, and it's a matter of finding the right outlet for them.

The good news for him is, it's July. He has plenty of time to make considerable changes to the LP. Without making some changes, though, I don't see how this can be a good program. It might serve him well, but that's not the same thing.

 

[i love to skate]

The good news for him is, it's July. He has plenty of time to make considerable changes to the LP. Without making some changes, though, I don't see how this can be a good program. It might serve him well, but that's not the same thing.

Well then you are in the minority. People at the competition were raving about the intricacy of transitions and choreography - his feet do not stop moving. A lot of people do not like the music cuts but I will wait to see it on TV and live to make my judgements on that.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Well, UR or not, that program is not well-choreographed and the music cuts are bad. Chan should demand his money back. It's essentially a collection of elements designed to get points, and while some would argue this is a CoP thing, I think we've seen skaters do high-scoring elements while still skating an artistically meaningul program.

IMO, a skater should be hit with low component scores on choreo, interpretation and P&E for something like that. There is no real artistic merit to that program, for which I blame Lori Nichol, not Patrick. He has the talent to do better, and she should have provided him with a vehicle that would allow him to shine. POTO is not that vehicle in its current form. And next season, the tango comparison may not be to Chan's benefit in the SP; Dai has a better one.

I think the purpose of a "B" competition is get programs out there and then fix them up Call it Tweaking if you like. I doubt any fan will see the exactsame program from a "B" competition to a "GP" to a Nats to an Oly to a Worlds.

When Plush carefully prepares to do his next jump and pauses for applause before he repeats the same, he still get high points under CoP despite the ordinary choreography. If you've seen one program of Plush, imo, you've seen them all and I expect this season to be the same.

As for Dai, I haven't seen any skating this season. I'm hoping his surgery went well, and look forward to seeing that old spark he is famous for.

As for Lori, she has had a lot of success under the 6.0 system, and touched up Rhapsody in Blue for Evan's World championship. (He is using her again.) I am sure what anyone has seen in the way of a program for Chan in Aston, will not be the same in the Russian GP.

As for Chan, one of the best Flowing skaters of today, he had a poor day in Aston, that doesn't mean he will have poor days in the future.

Whether the poor skate was due to choreography or just too early in the season is moot. My opinion, however, is that the cut of the music was too eratic, but that can be taken care of.

 

[museksk8r]

One could interpret the bit about the programs of the 6.0 era being easier despite the quads as disrespectful towards the skaters who did them - that includes Plush.

I don't see how a comment like that can be interpreted as disrespectful when it is the truth though, and I don't think Chan intended that comment to be disrespectful. I've seen video and read interviews from 6.0 skaters when they admit that the COP programs now are much more difficult than the programs they had to do when looking at the harder step sequences and spin requirements under COP. Skaters could more likely get away with wrong edge takeoffs and under-rotated jumps in the 6.0 era too.

But I don't recall any specific negative comments made by Chan regarding Plushenko.

True.

 

[zephyrskates]

I thought I was in the minority of not liking the music cut. I think that the music especially in the beginning is over crowded and frantic. The music is definitely recognizable, but decide on 2 or 3 songs from the musical and stick to that. You don't have to jam every song in the musical in a 4 minute program.

 

[merrybari]

This early in the season it's the cut of the music that turns me off to this POTO for Patrick.

I love the POTO score - most of the "songs" are strong and powerful but to me that power is not sustained in the cuts chosen. With the choppy cut there's no way for him to relate to the music as it doesn't stay with one "theme" long enough. As the music is what drives the performance for me, even with better execution, it's going to be hard for me to like it. Will wait and see how they "tweak" it before the GP and reserve the right to change my mind depending on what happens with it in the meantime.

 

[Wrlmy]

This early in the season it's the cut of the music that turns me off to this POTO for Patrick.

I love the POTO score - most of the "songs" are strong and powerful but to me that power is not sustained in the cuts chosen. With the choppy cut there's no way for him to relate to the music as it doesn't stay with one "theme" long enough. As the music is what drives the performance for me, even with better execution, it's going to be hard for me to like it. Will wait and see how they "tweak" it before the GP and reserve the right to change my mind depending on what happens with it in the meantime.

ITA. I hope Team Chan gets a new cut. To think Lori gave him a masterpiece Tango sp last year and choreographed this blunder for the olympic season. It's Fumie all over again.

 

[casken]

I think Buttercup need to separate how much he/she likes the program and how good it is in terms of the rules of skating.

I don't particularly like the program at all, but as a judge I would shower it with high SS,CH,and TR scores at least.

Joubert couldn't skate that program for his life.

 

[Dipyramidal]

According to a recent news clip, Mao Asada has been allegedly training a 3Lo-3 Lo! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-f_zDL_GEs

 

[museksk8r]

According to a recent news clip, Mao Asada has been allegedly training a 3Lo-3 Lo! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-f_zDL_GEs

I can picture the "<" and resulting negative GOE on her protocol sheets already, if true. Judges have not been friendly at all with ratifying combination jumps ending in 3loop under the revised COP system.

 

[Wrlmy]

She had some trouble early in the season, but by the time the worlds came around, she fully rotated 3f-3r two years in a row. I actually prefer her 3r-3r, bases on some footage from last year, over 3f-3r. It looks so much prettier and covers more distance. Less risky and more rewarding than 3a-2t.

 

[Tinymavy15]

Well then you are in the minority. People at the competition were raving about the intricacy of transitions and choreography - his feet do not stop moving. A lot of people do not like the music cuts but I will wait to see it on TV and live to make my judgements on that.

Well his program was probably head and shoulders above all the other programs presented at that event, but pales in comparison to previous program he and othe olympic condendors have put out there. Beware in making too strong judgements one way or the other. This was a very preliminary event, very early in the season. With the bad lighting, old costume it was hardly more than a practice session for him.

 

[Buttercup]

I think Buttercup need to separate how much he/she likes the program and how good it is in terms of the rules of skating.

I don't particularly like the program at all, but as a judge I would shower it with high SS,CH,and TR scores at least.

Joubert couldn't skate that program for his life.

I think you should actually read my post before replying to it. I wrote that the program is constructed specifically to get points, and would probably be effective in that regard if skated cleanly. I did not write that it should be marked badly on TR and SS. The thing is, there are plenty of programs that are designed to get points, and it doesn't make them good programs as a whole, or artistically meaningful. But it is possible to do both things (think of Savchenko and Szolkowy: difficult programs, but ones that also form a coherent and artistic whole).

Brian Joubert has absolutely nothing to do with whether this is a badly choreographed program or not, which in theory is what we're discussing here. Chan couldn't skate Joubert's programs, Joubert couldn't skate Jeremy Abbott's programs, Abbott couldn't skate Plushy's programs, etc. They're different skaters with different strengths and different styles. As they should be.

Tinymavy and I both wrote that it's basically an early season practice skate against weaker skaters, to test the program. As such, I don't see why there's a need to get defensive about people stating that it wasn't a shining example of what Patrick Chan can do. I'm sure he would be the first to say that it still needs work; in fact he's already told IN that it does.

I don't see how a comment like that can be interpreted as disrespectful when it is the truth though, and I don't think Chan intended that comment to be disrespectful. I've seen video and read interviews from 6.0 skaters when they admit that the COP programs now are much more difficult than the programs they had to do when looking at the harder step sequences and spin requirements under COP. Skaters could more likely get away with wrong edge takeoffs and under-rotated jumps in the 6.0 era too.

I didn't say it was my interpretation . Certainly some parts of today's programs are harder than in the past. But it was an unfortunately phrased remark; still, since I was not present when it was made, I lack the context to know exactly what was meant by it.

 

[Morning Glory]

According to the staff blog of THE ICE, Takahiko will show his new SP, rock music by Jimi Hendrix, in THE ICE

http://weblog.ctv.co.jp/figure/top
(Japanese only...)

We can see it tomorrow!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

A competitor should not be judged on what he/she says, but definitely should be judged on his/her skating abilities by fans as well as judges.

 

[Wrlmy]

According to the staff blog of THE ICE, Takahiko will show his new SP, rock music by Jimi Hendrix, in THE ICE

http://weblog.ctv.co.jp/figure/top
(Japanese only...)

We can see it tomorrow!

Great! I loved Joannie's "Little Wing" from couple years ago, although not well received by the judges. I noticed the judges are more lenient with the men in terms of music choice. I hope this works out great for Takahiko.

 

[Morning Glory]

Takahiko Kozuka's new SP is Bold as Love!

Very short news clip:

http://www.dailymotion.pl/user/ippanjin2008/video/x9yr8p_maonews0725_sport

I've heard this program was choreographed by Yuka Sato, but not confirmed.