2015 World Team Trophy Mens FS Apr 17

[deetrakt]

Tell that to Papy O'Daniel

I think the Pappy O'Daniel reference is to a scene in the Coen Brothers' movie "O Brother Where Art Thou" in which Pappy (a character based on a real life Texas politician and radio host of that name, played by Charles Durning) introduces a group on his show singing Sunshine.

Every year, hundreds of references appear in mass and social media making unexplained and even unidentified references to Coen Brothers' movies. Sometimes I recognize them, often not.

 

[gmyers]

I'm not from the US but I find this quite offensive :no:

I am from the us and its a fact. Quads are frowned upon severely if it jeopardizes clean programs. It's lysacek land and brownland

 

[gmyers]

I'm sure they want to master the 3A in the second half too, since he had been attempting it there all season long. (And FWIW, he did have a ratified 3A(x) with positive +GOE in the second half at 4CC).

Likewise during his actual debut senior season, they also worked on a 3A-3T as well, but ultimately felt they could gain more points doing a 3A-2T and a 3F-3T(x) rather than trying to force a 3A-3T where he would likely get less +GOE. Again, maybe if there was a bonus for doing a 3A-3T in either BV or GOE they might keep at it. But under how combos are scored, he gets so much spring on his 3F-3T, it makes sense to do that combo rather than force a 3A-3T.

The program is supremely difficult in other ways. 6 out of his 8 jumping passes, including his 3-3 and a 3-1L-3S combo, are in the second half and just about every jump is done with few crossovers and with loads of transitions in and out.

Again, it comes down to what will help your skater show up in competition. Perception sucks, but it doesn't matter if you get the scores from the judges. I suppose it's annoying to constantly hear fans complain, but really they don't matter all that much in the end. I think they choose to get the feedback they feel will help him advance in his career.

All that said, given the fact they've changed that FS layout like a million times this season alone, I don't expect them to keep the same layout next season. I'm thinking they opted to move the 3A up because Kori knew that Jason was tired from Worlds and decided that was the was the best way to get a clean program.

Also, I'm willing to take WTT numbers with a grain of salt since it seems judges are quite generous. I don't expect him to get 89 at the GP and we'll see if he can hit those higher TES numbers this fall.

Lol when mrs p doubts something regarding jason you know its going to happen

 

[TMC]

I am from the us and its a fact. Quads are frowned upon severely if it jeopardizes clean programs. It's lysacek land and brownland

Quads are one thing, saying that the mentality of an entire nation is somehow cowardly is another.

 

[gmyers]

Quads are one thing, saying that the mentality of an entire nation is somehow cowardly is another.

cowardly or not its right accroding to ijs all these people tlaking about quads are wrong. its 10.3 points. lots of ways to get to 10.3 points. i assume very strongly that men will reduce quads to compete with jason. hes 4th in the world. hes judged second to hanyu. its not going to be like 2008-2010 but quads are going to be less done quickly. men are going to wait until jason did.

 

[Sandpiper]

Quads are one thing, saying that the mentality of an entire nation is somehow cowardly is another.

If anyone called it cowardly (did they? I don't recall), that's wrong. However, I don't think it's wrong for a person to say they, personally, don't like seeing someone not challenging the most difficult element. (Just like I can say I don't like inconsistent skaters--that doesn't mean I'm being racist against everyone at Europeans).

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Geoblocked.

Deetrakt is right. Papy introduced the Soggy Bottom boys as his brain trust and pardoned them from their misdemeanoring past and rather forcefully asked the to lead everyone in "you are my sunshine"

I should stay on topic more but I just couldn't resist the chance to reference what is possibly my favorite movie ever. O' Brother Where Art Though

 

[Mrs. P]

If anyone called it cowardly (did they? I don't recall), that's wrong. However, I don't think it's wrong for a person to say they, personally, don't like seeing someone not challenging the most difficult element. (Just like I can say I don't like inconsistent skaters--that doesn't mean I'm being racist against everyone at Europeans).

Of course it's fine saying that they wish Jason tried quads. Or they don't like that he beat skaters who tried quads The issue was the poster made Jason's "riskless" strategy of not putting in a quad as some sort of reflection of a "U.S. Mentality." The poster later clarified it was in reference to the U.S. men figure skaters, not a nation as a whole.

Still, even with that statement, that's a broad stroke especially considering Adam's 4 Lz attempts and Max having put as many as 3 quads in a FS at one time.

As I said earlier, I don't begrudge people taking risks. But risks don't always pay off neither does deciding to opt-out of a major risk.

 

[gmyers]

If Kovtun had gone out and skated a clean program, his PCS would have gone up and he likely would have outscored Jason. I feel like Jason definitely deserves to be way ahead of Kovtun in PCS but that Jason also got a boost to his score because he skated that program perfectly. When you go clean, there's that magic that allows the judges to go up with the scores and really reward the performance - that happened to Jason here. Once there are mistakes, the magic is lost and the scores go back to reality. So really, I don't think it's fair to say a clean Kovtun FS with 3 quads would be outscored by Jason - he hasn't skated the program totally clean this season, so we can't say what his score would be. My guess though would be that the score would be really high, as he would receive the bonus for skating perfectly.

A skater gets 8 jumping passes. Kovtun throws 3 or 4 away. Jason throws none away. Jason does harder spins and steps. He gets choreo and does programs. Kovtun could never beat brown. He throws too much away. FUSPs? 2axels and salchow triple? Not ever going to happen where kovtun beats brown now.

 

[TMC]

If anyone called it cowardly (did they? I don't recall), that's wrong. However, I don't think it's wrong for a person to say they, personally, don't like seeing someone not challenging the most difficult element. (Just like I can say I don't like inconsistent skaters--that doesn't mean I'm being racist against everyone at Europeans).

Of course, but then call it what it is: "I don't like the Jason Brown team's mentality of not going for quads" instead of saying "it's the US mentality".

Sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine when I see an entire people painted with the same brush.

It's not even true: Sam Auxier said in an interview that they're putting extra money into developing those quads. That doesn't sound like frowning upon quads to me.

 

[karne]

Team USA post-FS quotes (from USFS fanzone):

Max Aaron (free skate 151.43 points, 8th place)
This is the first time ever internationally I’ve gotten 75 points for my program components. Obviously that’s not good enough to be a world champion or world medalist but I’m on my way. At this event, I wanted to do whatever I could to help the team but I also had a goal for myself to put out good components. I talk about them a lot. I put in the time and effort to do what I can to improve. It’s a long and tedious process for me because it doesn’t come naturally to me but I’m looking forward to continuing that challenge.​

Thanks golden411! I hadn't realised that this was his first 75+ PCS. Seems crazy!

As I watched Max's Black Swan, I kept talking to my computer screen as he kept impressing me more and more :yay:. His years of work on his components are really paying off.

You're not alone. I talk to my computer screen all the time.

Wow--I loved Max Aaron's free skate. Too bad about the mistakes towards the end. But if he skates this clean, he is going to be back on the Nationals podium and the World team.

Minor nitpick - he was on the Nationals podium this year, too. (Funny how so few remember that they hand out the pewter medal at US nationals.) But yes, if this goes clean - I can see him winning US Nationals again.

Has Jason ever had a problem with his edge on his lutz before? He had an unclear edge call in both the long and short at this event.

Yes, as a Junior he used to get called "e" quite regularly, but he and Kori worked hard on fixing it and it hasn't been a problem for a while, though he's come close to the ! at times. I think he was probably just tired.

If anyone called it cowardly (did they? I don't recall), that's wrong. However, I don't think it's wrong for a person to say they, personally, don't like seeing someone not challenging the most difficult element. (Just like I can say I don't like inconsistent skaters--that doesn't mean I'm being racist against everyone at Europeans).

Look at the poster.

Anyway, I'm having a laugh. All US men don't do the quad? Hmm, that doesn't sound right, because I'm very sure I saw one done last night by a guy with the US flag next to his name...​

 

[gmyers]

Of course, but then call it what it is: "I don't like the Jason Brown team's mentality of not going for quads" instead of saying "it's the US mentality".

Sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine when I see an entire people painted with the same brush.

It's not even true: Sam Auxier said in an interview that they're putting extra money into developing those quads. That doesn't sound like frowning upon quads to me.

But the judges always go for the Lysaceks or browns.

 

[deetrakt]

I am from the us and its a fact. Quads are frowned upon severely if it jeopardizes clean programs. It's lysacek land and brownland

Guess you're too young to remember when the US was TimGoebelland or BrandonMrozland. Problem was, they weren't complete skaters.

There aren't more than half a dozen male skaters in the world right now who are both complete skaters and have reliable quads. If the US had one, we'd be ecstatic! And if and when Jason has one reliable quad in his short and one in his long, he'll be a contender for the podium in every international competition. (I have to laugh when quad-philiacs refer to a skater as "having a quad". Jason easily beats most of them most of the time--they don't "have it" that often and/or don't have much else.)

 

[cheerknithanson]

Look at the poster.

Anyway, I'm having a laugh. All US men don't do the quad? Hmm, that doesn't sound right, because I'm very sure I saw one done last night by a guy with the US flag next to his name...

I'm trying to think of a good comeback line to support you.... but I'll say this,

"Oh! You're right!"

Crab that was so weak what I just said.

 

[Mrs. P]

A skater gets 8 jumping passes. Kovtun throws 3 or 4 away. Jason throws none away. Jason does harder spins and steps. He gets choreo and does programs. Kovtun could never beat brown. He throws too much away. FUSPs? 2axels and salchow triple? Not ever going to happen where kovtun beats brown now.

I'm so bumping this post up when this turns out to not be true.

FWIW, Jason and Maxim's face-to-face record is now 3-1, Jason (2-0, Jason in seniors).

But I wouldn't count Maxim out. In fact, now I'm going to actively root for him to beat Jason once next season! Life would be so boring if everything always turned out Milhouse for our favorite skaters.

 

[cheerknithanson]

Guess you're too young to remember when the US was TimGoebelland or BrandonMrozland. Problem was, they weren't complete skaters.

There aren't more than half a dozen male skaters in the world right now who are both complete skaters and have reliable quads. If the US had one, we'd be ecstatic! And if and when Jason has one reliable quad in his short and one in his long, he'll be a contender for the podium in every international competition. (I have to laugh when quad-philiacs refer to a skater as "having a quad". Jason easily beats most of them most of the time--they don't "have it" that often and/or don't have much else.)

No offense, but I don't like the term incomplete skaters. No one is incomplete. They can do spins and StSq. But it might not be their forte. There are things that aren't our fortes. Like for me, I'm a cheerleader, but I don't do extremely complex stunts cause I'm not that strong enough. But that doesn't mean I'm an incomplete cheerleader.

 

[Mrs. P]

No offense, but I don't like the term incomplete skaters. No one is incomplete. They can do spins and StSq. But it might not be their forte. There are things that aren't our fortes. Like for me, I'm a cheerleader, but I don't do extremely complex stunts cause I'm not that strong enough. But that doesn't mean I'm an incomplete cheerleader.

That's a good way of looking at it. There are certain pieces of our respective careers/vocation/calling that may come tougher than others. The men's field certainly shows that. And it certainly plays into how each skater approaches their respective competitive strategy.

I'm all for diversity in men's skating...I may be drawn to a certain style/skaters but in general, I think it's good that there are many paths to success.

 

[deetrakt]

No offense, but I don't like the term incomplete skaters. No one is incomplete. They can do spins and StSq. But it might not be their forte. There are things that aren't our fortes. Like for me, I'm a cheerleader, but I don't do extremely complex stunts cause I'm not that strong enough. But that doesn't mean I'm an incomplete cheerleader.

Sorry if I hit a nerve, but I assume that despite your skills, not being able to "do extremely complex stunts" keeps you from being at the top of your sport.

If Jason can routinely be dismissed as if not yet having a quad makes him a lesser class of male skater (as he has been by some fans, some commentators, some coaches, etc.), I can refer to guys who have poor spins, next to no or no transitions, limited interpretive skills, etc. as "incomplete". As long as guys like Yuzuru, Javi and Denis are around, they're not going to be challenging them.

The international judges aren't favoring Jason--they're just saying he as all the talent and skills to be a podium contender except the quad, which seems pretty much inarguable to me.

 

[Mrs. P]

Sorry if I hit a nerve, but I assume that despite your skills, not being able to "do extremely complex stunts" keeps you from being at the top of your sport.

If Jason can routinely be dismissed as if not yet having a quad makes him a lesser class of male skater (as he has been by some fans, some commentators, some coaches, etc.), I can refer to guys who have poor spins, next to no or no transitions, limited interpretive skills, etc. as "incomplete". As long as guys like Yuzuru, Javi and Denis are around, they're not going to be challenging them.

The international judges aren't favoring Jason--they're just saying he as all the talent and skills to be a podium contender except the quad, which seems pretty much inarguable to me.

Come on, was that necessary? :no:

I agree with CKH that yes, every skater has weaknesses they have to work on, but success doesn't come by forcing those weaknesses to go away, but to compete in a way that allows them to thrive in competition and make the most of their strengths, whatever they may be. Brandon Mroz and Timothy Goebel certainly had weaknesses outside of jumping, but they still had success in the sport. Goebel is an Olympic Bronze Medalist. Mroz is a Nationals medalist. Those two are more successful than the majority of people who will skate.

Jason may have beaten many of these skaters today, but we've seen how the men's field can change day to day. I mean did anyone envision several months ago that Javi would beat Yuzuru for the world title?

ETA: CKH, despite your self-proclaimed weak areas (which is great your'e aware of them), I bet you are a very good cheerleader. :yes:

 

[gmyers]

Guess you're too young to remember when the US was TimGoebelland or BrandonMrozland. Problem was, they weren't complete skaters.

There aren't more than half a dozen male skaters in the world right now who are both complete skaters and have reliable quads. If the US had one, we'd be ecstatic! And if and when Jason has one reliable quad in his short and one in his long, he'll be a contender for the podium in every international competition. (I have to laugh when quad-philiacs refer to a skater as "having a quad". Jason easily beats most of them most of the time--they don't "have it" that often and/or don't have much else.)

I didn't forget about goebel or mroz silver but even Canada produced stojko so there's obvious exceptions to everything!

Yes you indicate something factual which is that "having" a quad doesn't mean its ever really reliable for most. Now there's a brown pushing good tries" quad skaters out of the conversation for success.

I'm so bumping this post up when this turns out to not be true.

FWIW, Jason and Maxim's face-to-face record is now 3-1, Jason (2-0, Jason in seniors).

But I wouldn't count Maxim out. In fact, now I'm going to actively root for him to beat Jason once next season! Life would be so boring if everything always turned out Milhouse for our favorite skaters.

If I saw the math I wouldn't have made the risk of bumping for proof of wrongness. Lol. Even in jumps brown beats kovtun now.