2016-17 State of Russian Ladies skating

[silverlake22]

I think what is happening now is that Russian coaches have prepared their skaters well to peak around 15-17. None of the skaters have yet proved to have the longevity of Slutskaya or Butyrskaya. From 1998-2005 Russia won 10 medals but only four skaters won those (and only two won more than a single medal). Since 2012 Russian women have won 6 world medals but none have won more than one.

Liza had her "peak" season last year at age 18. Pogorilaya winning a World medal was a big breakthrough in her career and she did that a couple weeks before turning 18. When Adelina won in Sochi she was a few months from turning 18. I get that 17/18 is still very young, but all three of these ladies had success as young teenagers, went through some challenges when dealing with puberty and then were able to have career high performances at major events after enduring the rough transitional period.

It's yet to be seen if any of Liza, Adelina, and Anna will continue to have success into their 20s, but I think it could certainly be possible. Also, the outcome of future events might prove that some of these Russian ladies did not in fact peak around age 15, 16, 17, the best could be still to come. For example, I could see someone like Medevedeva or Pogorilaya improving in coming seasons.

Finally, I think the insane depth of ladies skating in Russia is more to blame for the lack of "longevity" than anything else. Leonova, for example, has remained competitive on an international level for several years now and would be viewed as a top skater with longevity if she competed for somewhere that wasn't Russia. She can still do all the elements to be relevant internationally, but because she hasn't competed at major events like Euros and Worlds in recent years, it's easy to classify her as "second tier" or a skater that has regressed, when that's not really the case. If Ashley Wagner was competing for Russia, she most likely wouldn't be on the Worlds team for the last 5 years, would subsequently have less international recognition, and likely would be viewed similarly to Leonova as opposed to a top skater with longevity. It's really circumstantial IMO.

 

[boskil]

Competition in Russia's ladies field is not for a faint of heart.

They learn to compete from the very young age. As far as I know there no medals for the 4th (or the last) place in Russia.

I've watched one decoration of 5-6 year olds yesterday: top three entered the podium, medals, diplomas, souvenirs, host made small pause and asked for special applause for medalists, then 4+ places were called forth individually, received only diplomas and souvenirs. Of course everybody was applauded, atmosphere was super warm and kind, but winners were clearly distinguished (particularly as podium steps were almost their height ).

It's the Russian guys who are getting soft. Most young guys in Russia dream to be a hockey player, like Ovi.

I've seen one interview with female Russian coach: she was talking about the conditions, training process, skating boom etc. and they asked her about low number of boys - she smiled, admitted there is a problem, but also said fs suits girls better and she'd rather have her son playing hockey.

 

[Pracygr]

Finally, I think the insane depth of ladies skating in Russia is more to blame for the lack of "longevity" than anything else.

Yep. The kind of performance that Anna Pogorilaya shown to claim bronze in Worlds this season is exactly what she had to show to get third place in Russian Nationals. So demanding these girls to make team every year or else declaring them "not having longevity" is more or less expecting somebody to medal in Worlds every year. By that logic Miyahara is also past her prime at age of 18 since she didn't medal this time at Worlds.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Yep. The kind of performance that Anna Pogorilaya shown to claim bronze in Worlds this season is exactly what she had to show to get third place in Russian Nationals. So demanding these girls to make team every year or else declaring them "not having longevity" is more or less expecting somebody to medal in Worlds every year. By that logic Miyahara is also past her prime at age of 18 since she didn't medal this time at Worlds.

Well, not having longevity is related to how well they are competing against their countrywomen. Irina didn't medal every year, and didn't even make the world team once, but she always was a medal contender at every event. Probably Liza would be too if she were from any other country. But none of the Russian women will have longevity if they can't rotate 7 triple LPs regularly because they won't make the team for any high profile events. Skaters like Ashley, Gracie, Mao, and Carolina can have a handful of bad events every year and still make the team to put themselves in a position to medal at Worlds.

 

[Pracygr]

Well, not having longevity is related to how well they are competing against their countrywomen. Irina didn't medal every year, and didn't even make the world team once, but she always was a medal contender at every event. Probably Liza would be too if she were from any other country. But none of the Russian women will have longevity if they can't rotate 7 triple LPs regularly because they won't make the team for any high profile events. Skaters like Ashley, Gracie, Mao, and Carolina can have a handful of bad events every year and still make the team to put themselves in a position to medal at Worlds.

Which is kind of my point as well. Every skater can have a high point or a lull in his career, but only in Russia currently a high level athlete will not make team unless he's in absolutely best shape possible. And this will naturally result in bigger team variability, since in figure skating being in absolutely best shape year after year after year is very difficult. No design by coaches or anybody else has to be involved for situation to play out this way.

I've seen one interview with female Russian coach: she was talking about the conditions, training process, skating boom etc. and they asked her about low number of boys - she smiled, admitted there is a problem, but also said fs suits girls better and she'd rather have her son playing hockey.

Yes, parents rarely consider figure skating as an option of a sport for boys. Back in the days, though, you could only apply for hockey around age 8, so figure skating had a window of opportunity to claim some talented kids before they're went for more popular sports. Not any longer, since now you can apply for hockey at basically same age as figure skating.

And that results in boys being sort of endangered species in skating groups. They don't have as much competition and aren't motivated to improve quite as much. There are talks to introduce mixed gender competitions for pre-novice ages just to help to alleviate that.

For girls, however, figure skating is one of the top contenders for sport in most parents' eyes, along with ballet/dancing classes and rhythmic gymnastics.

 

[vorravorra]

Yes, it actually sounds like now it is a better time to take boys to figure skating - so much less competition. For girls, unless they have an option to skate for another country, it's tough. Really, more small countries should seize the opportunity and get these ladies to skate for them. Uzbekistan anyone? Surely there is a way to arrange it. I know that Medvedeva was offered to skate for Armenia at one point. Of course, she doesn't need to - yet, at least, but I think another woman actually does skate for Armenia.

 

[moriel]

Yes, it actually sounds like now it is a better time to take boys to figure skating - so much less competition. For girls, unless they have an option to skate for another country, it's tough. Really, more small countries should seize the opportunity and get these ladies to skate for them. Uzbekistan anyone? Surely there is a way to arrange it. I know that Medvedeva was offered to skate for Armenia at one point. Of course, she doesn't need to - yet, at least, but I think another woman actually does skate for Armenia.

Doesnt seems good for the ladies though - while they have more competition in Russia, they also have big part of their training costs covered there, which isnt guaranteed if they relocate. Also, not everybody is willing to skate for a random country just because there is too much competition at home. Last but not least, that would mean sitting out of competition for a season or two, with no certainty about future success and most likely inferior training conditions.

For example, Pogorilaya's parents are from Ukraine, and she could most likely switch reasonably easy, as she either has or could obtain the citizenship easily. She doesn't look like she is rushing to be Ukraine's #1.

 

[vorravorra]

Doesnt seems good for the ladies though - while they have more competition in Russia, they also have big part of their training costs covered there, which isnt guaranteed if they relocate. Also, not everybody is willing to skate for a random country just because there is too much competition at home. Last but not least, that would mean sitting out of competition for a season or two, with no certainty about future success and most likely inferior training conditions.

For example, Pogorilaya's parents are from Ukraine, and she could most likely switch reasonably easy, as she either has or could obtain the citizenship easily. She doesn't look like she is rushing to be Ukraine's #1.

Anna Pogorilaya is not doing too badly in Russia, why would she switch? Obviously it's not an option for everyone. It's more for those who would have had no chance to continue with their career in Russia. Sitting one or two seasons out doesn't sound too bad compared to never making it to any major competitions at all. Skating for a minor country, you can come back year after year even after placing near the bottom at Worlds. And I am pretty sure nobody actually has to train in Uzbekistan even if they skate for it.

 

[Krunchii]

Anna stated in an interview before that she would never skate for another country if my memory serves me right, this was around the time when she was still a bit flippy floppy on the podiums, people suggested it to her because they were afraid she would eventually be overtaken and not get to go Euros or Worlds. And it turned out good for her because she is still alive and kicking and doing better than ever, the competition in Russia does seem to be a heavy burden on her because we can see how crushed she is when she does badly but it also seems to have made her stronger.

 

[silverlake22]

Anna stated in an interview before that she would never skate for another country if my memory serves me right, this was around the time when she was still a bit flippy floppy on the podiums, people suggested it to her because they were afraid she would eventually be overtaken and not get to go Euros or Worlds. And it turned out good for her because she is still alive and kicking and doing better than ever, the competition in Russia does seem to be a heavy burden on her because we can see how crushed she is when she does badly but it also seems to have made her stronger.

A lot of the Russian ladies admit that skating for a country with such a deep field pushes them to improve and stay competitive. I believe both Anna and Evgenia had mentioned in interviews that the level of their skating would go down if they switched to represent a different country (which I guess either girl could do fairly easily given Evgenia's father is Armenian and both Anna's parents are Ukrainian). It's no surprise that a competitive environment pushes people to improve and become better. I mean look at what has happened with the Canadian ladies.

 

[Krunchii]

A lot of the Russian ladies admit that skating for a country with such a deep field pushes them to improve and stay competitive. I believe both Anna and Evgenia had mentioned in interviews that the level of their skating would go down if they switched to represent a different country (which I guess either girl could do fairly easily given Evgenia's father is Armenian and both Anna's parents are Ukrainian). It's no surprise that a competitive environment pushes people to improve and become better. I mean look at what has happened with the Canadian ladies.

Well they could get citizenship easily but it's ultimately up to whether Russian fed wants to release them, which is not in a billion years, they were talented as juniors too and I wouldn't let them go either haha. Plus with the skating facilities and funding in Russia they probably have a better time staying in Russia along with lots of opportunities there since figure skating is a popular sport. Anna and Evgenia seemed to be on TV a lot after Worlds which must have been a great experience for them.

 

[Pracygr]

Obtaining citizenship is the easiest part. There aren't many nations that wouldn't accept a high level athlete especially in a field that isn't well represented. However as far as actually supporting the athlete in question financially, coaching, equipment and facility wise - not many will be willing (or able) to do that, or, even if they are, to quite the extent it needs to be for that athlete to compete on his level. And then there are things like moving away from your family, friends, trying to setup in an unfamiliar country. Sitting out a season or two isn't going to help either, especially since skater's careers aren't usually very long.

The only good way to do it is if Russian fed is willing to strike a deal to keep you within Russian system. This way you can get a leave and start competing almost immediately, while still keeping access to same facilities, coaches and even competitions inside Russia. Russian fed isn't going to be willing to do that just for anybody though. Top level athletes are unlikely, and the choice of representation will most likely be limited to EACU (Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Armenia). And then there are still things like being a foreigner in your own country, representing smaller and less influential federation that can't do much if judges decide to pick on you etc. Also while renouncing Russian citizenship is easy, getting one back can be problematic. There are't many examples of Russian skater changing nationality and doing well either. In fact I'm not aware of a single one.

So yeah, lots and lots of complications, and for most it might be more preferable to just stick around as B teamers, getting an occasional Grand Prix or Challenger assignment, and then gradually move into coaching position as they retire.

 

[vorravorra]

The only good way to do it is if Russian fed is willing to strike a deal to keep you within Russian system. This way you can get a leave and start competing almost immediately, while still keeping access to same facilities, coaches and even competitions inside Russia. Russian fed isn't going to be willing to do that just for anybody though. Top level athletes are unlikely, and the choice of representation will most likely be limited to EACU (Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Armenia). And then there are still things like being a foreigner in your own country, representing smaller and less influential federation that can't do much if judges decide to pick on you etc. Also while renouncing Russian citizenship is easy, getting one back can be problematic.

Can't you get double citizenship? Russia doesn't forbid it. I don't know about those other countries.

 

[Pracygr]

Can't you get double citizenship? Russia doesn't forbid it. I don't know about those other countries.

AFAIK most countries (Russia included) will require you to renounce any other citizenship before giving theirs. Russia doesn't require you to give up citizenship when accepting new one, but more often than not it's still required anyways. In case it isn't though - yes, you can have double citizenship.

 

[vorravorra]

As far as a Russia is concerned, theoretically yes, but there are ways around that. And not just Russia, there are countries which just plain forbid double citizenship and yet people still manage. For athletes of course it is much harder because they are high-visibility, everything has to be official etc. And renouncing a citizenship if you have any plans of getting it back is certainly not a smart thing to do.

 

[hanca]

Obtaining citizenship is the easiest part. There aren't many nations that wouldn't accept a high level athlete especially in a field that isn't well represented. However as far as actually supporting the athlete in question financially, coaching, equipment and facility wise - not many will be willing (or able) to do that, or, even if they are, to quite the extent it needs to be for that athlete to compete on his level. And then there are things like moving away from your family, friends, trying to setup in an unfamiliar country. Sitting out a season or two isn't going to help either, especially since skater's careers aren't usually very long.

The only good way to do it is if Russian fed is willing to strike a deal to keep you within Russian system. This way you can get a leave and start competing almost immediately, while still keeping access to same facilities, coaches and even competitions inside Russia. Russian fed isn't going to be willing to do that just for anybody though. Top level athletes are unlikely, and the choice of representation will most likely be limited to EACU (Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Armenia). And then there are still things like being a foreigner in your own country, representing smaller and less influential federation that can't do much if judges decide to pick on you etc. Also while renouncing Russian citizenship is easy, getting one back can be problematic. There are't many examples of Russian skater changing nationality and doing well either. In fact I'm not aware of a single one.

So yeah, lots and lots of complications, and for most it might be more preferable to just stick around as B teamers, getting an occasional Grand Prix or Challenger assignment, and then gradually move into coaching position as they retire.

If someone changed countries, he/she would need to stay within Russia so that he/she still gets the same level of coaching, access to facilities etc. There is plenty of examples when switching countries did not work, but there are some examples when it did. It didn't work for Ovcharova, Shelepen and Gosviani, for example, but one can argue that their last year skating for Russia wasn't that great anyway, and that they would have as bad results no matter whether they stayed in Russia or whether they changed the country.

Davidov, if I recall correctly, changed country and while he didn't have as great results as winning Europeans or worlds, he wouldn't win no matter what country he skated, so I think it worked because it gave him the opportunity to at least compete at those events, whereas it wouldn't be guaranteed if he stayed skating for Russia.

It worked for Rigini, and it worked for Contesti. Neigh of them would be getting to the competitions they got to if they skated for their original country. I think it also worked for Tkachenko, because he was number 4 or 5 in ice dance and now he is attending Europeans for Israel as their number 1.

I would say that it is never certain whether it would work out for any particular skater or not, but it can give the skaters the opportunity to at least get to Europeans, if that's what is their goal.

 

[LRK]

What is the situation with Nikol now anyway?

 

[Pracygr]

Davidov, if I recall correctly, changed country and while he didn't have as great results as winning Europeans or worlds, he wouldn't win no matter what country he skated, so I think it worked because it gave him the opportunity to at least compete at those events, whereas it wouldn't be guaranteed if he stayed skating for Russia.

I wanted to comment on this part, since I read an interview with Davydov recently. And he sounded like he was neither too fond of how his skating career turned to be, nor was he happy being stuck with Belarus passport. He's a coach at Sambo-70 now, and a fairly successful one at that. He is leading a strong junior group and his girls get a fair share of Grand Prix assignments. But while Belarus citizen enjoy unrestricted residence and work rights in Russia, it still is an impediment in his coaching career.

So I'm not telling that choosing to represent a different country is strictly wrong and nobody should do it, but this isn't something you just do, and it's a decision that comes with long term consequences.

What is the situation with Nikol now anyway?

4-th at Italian Nationals with 134 total score.

 

[LRK]

4-th at Italian Nationals with 134 total score.

Thanks. That... was unfortunate. Does she intend to continue, or has she retired? I hope not the latter, as I really liked her, and would like to see her compete again. If she goes on, hopefully she could improve, as she certainly was capable of much better than that.

 

[Pracygr]

Does she intend to continue, or has she retired?

She's been under the radars recently, so no idea. There were news of her struggling with injuries and getting married, and maybe she's not serious anymore, but no way to tell.