2023-24 Russian Nationals Women's Free Skate

[Zora]

Kamila looks good... yes, her 4T isn't ready, but also not far from being landed, her step sequence seems small and she has stamina issues, but how high could her motivation have been to compete this year? With a bit more effort, she would still be hard to beat.
Her program might not be everyone's taste, but I think it's better to attempt something unique than go for the same old.

 

[Skating91]

The 4T isn't stable now but I think this is something she has a few years to work on. If it doesn't become at least a bit more stable in that time span then she probably ought to retire.

Should Sinitsina retire then? Probably immediately using your logic because she will never jump a quad let alone have a stable one.

 

[LolaSkatesInJapan]

She landed her 4T during practice before the competition.

Anyone can fall during competition, even being well prepared and practicing consistently. It's very heartbreaking, but it happens and it's no reason whatsoever to single Kamila out for falling as if she were the only one who fell, which is not the case.

Stamina issues? Yes, she had health issues not that long ago and maybe not fully recovered, but yet delivers a high level skate and keeps her skating at a very high level while her body has changed, she's a grown woman now (more height, weight issues etc).

 

[Skating91]

The solo 3T in the second part of the program is much more alarming than the fall on the quad.

I don't think either are alarming. She had just completed a lutz combo and the sequence successfully. The lutz is problematic. She had already fallen once so PCS would have taken a hit with another fall.

By that point she would have felt she had done enough for the podium, and just didn't want to risk the small chance of not being on the podium with a second fall.

 

[Skating91]

I just checked the results from a national championship (quite renowned event), no-one had a base value higher than Kamila. Several points higher than the next best (and that program had several errors), so it was I suspected. It would very premature for Kamila to consider quitting based on a base value of 71 with one error (the 4T was fully rotated which was the important thing).

 

[Alex Fedorov]

I don't think either are alarming. She had just completed a lutz combo and the sequence successfully. The lutz is problematic. She had already fallen once so PCS would have taken a hit with another fall.

By that point she would have felt she had done enough for the podium, and just didn't want to risk the small chance of not being on the podium with a second fall.

This is what is causing concern because it indicates a decreased level of proficiency in triple jumps. It can be noted, for example, that in 2021, when Russian figure skaters were still competing at the ISU Grand Prix, not one of them jumped either solo 3T or solo 3S. At that time nine girls competed (including Kamila), six of them on two stages and three on one stage.

 

[Skating91]

This is what is causing concern because it indicates a decreased level of proficiency in triple jumps. It can be noted, for example, that in 2021, when Russian figure skaters were still competing at the ISU Grand Prix, not one of them jumped either solo 3T or solo 3S. At that time nine girls competed (including Kamila), six of them on two stages and three on one stage.

You were saying this is alarming for Kamila, which obviously isn't. Context matters. She's gone through the most extreme body transformation over the past 18 months that would have finished off any other skater. Soon that will stabilise. Plus she had just jumped a combo and sequence so what if she was fatigued and went for the 3T instead of lutz.

 

[AlexBreeze]

Anisimova seems to be very happy with her first Nationals despite the mistakes.

She says that her emotions can't be described in words, and the high level motivates her to keep working. She was once again convinced how much she loves this sport and it was an honor for her to perform.

I hope we see her many more times.

 

[katymay]

Anisimova seems to be very happy with her first Nationals despite the mistakes.

She says that her emotions can't be described in words, and the high level motivates her to keep working. She was once again convinced how much she loves this sport and it was an honor for her to perform.

I hope we see her many more times.

I'm glad. Just making it there means you are one of the best of the best, and almost all of these girls would podium at Worlds.

 

[Jontor]

The lutz combo and sequence both in the second half would suggest otherwise, as well as the 4T attempted at the start of the program.

She had a base value of 71 there are probably only 4-5 senior skaters on the planet who can attempt a program with a higher base value.

But that is my point. I thought Kamila was one of those 4-5 skaters in the world.
She had higher BV than Sofia because of the 4T, but as she fell on it, it didn't matter.
Interestingly, Sofia had the exact same layout at the end - 3Lz+3T, 3F+2A+2A, but then Sofia ended with a 3Lz, Kamila ended with a 3T. Almost 3 points lost to Sofia because of that and the silver medal was gone.
And it suggests that Kamila has problems with her triples if she no longer can end with a Lutz.

 

[Pairluv]

I would cut Kamilla some slack. She's been incredibly busy, dealt with growing up, has the whole issue with CAS that she cannot ignore, injury and trying to stay in competitive shape when her future is in other's hands, and has the expectations of the Russian fans and public. That's a lot to deal with especially when you're still a teenager. TBH, I don't know how she manages it all. I'm pretty certain I'd be a basket case. The fact she can keep her mental focus is remarkable.

 

[Paulipau]

This is what is causing concern because it indicates a decreased level of proficiency in triple jumps. It can be noted, for example, that in 2021, when Russian figure skaters were still competing at the ISU Grand Prix, not one of them jumped either solo 3T or solo 3S. At that time nine girls competed (including Kamila), six of them on two stages and three on one stage.

Those are interesting statistics.

I see it as a sign of sport developing, those are low-value triples.
It's like no men attempt double axels anymore.

 

[Isk]

Ohh, this is turning out hard to watch. I watched most of the ladies' skates, and skating skills overall are inferior to Japanese women, and music choices are not very appealing: mostly minor keys and a lot of drama.

Kulikova's music choice is bizarr. The cover itself is bizarr, and the performance makes you wonder if the skater read the lyrics as she was smiling in the beginning of the program. This kid is fifteen, she looks full 12 years old, and the lyrics are very adult.

Here is how this song should sound IMO:

Spoiler: A nicer cover

Another skater worth mentioning is Alina Gorbacheva. She has lines and extension, seems to have speed and clearly can skate to piano music. There are lots of good piano music, navigating it takes a bit of education, and her coaches are quite young, maybe they should get advice from someone. Her skate was frantic and there seems not much progress in SS since last year and there needs to be. She might get the 4S back but she might also loose time chasing it -- something to think about -- Sinitsina and Frolova are in top 6 without ultra-C.

Russian women are pushing for content, but shortage of basic musical education and taste seems a pretty apparent issue, that's why it's a bit hard to watch. Problem is they don't go to top-level choreographers, it's a disadvantage, and also makes it hard for them to learn and develop. My impression is that they cover it up with drama. The winner of this competition skated to nice music, but this music choice is a recycled idea -- and something is telling me that if Stanislava Konstantinova hadn't skated to it, Adelia wouldn't be skating to it either.

Another program for Anna Frolova with hard to follow lyrics.

Agaeva in dress inspired by Trusova's infamous big spender costume

Totally.

 

[Mathematician]

Ohh, this is turning out hard to watch. The skating skills overall are inferior to Japanese women, and music choices are not very appealing: mostly minor keys and a lot of drama.

I watched a few ladies' skates, and Kulikova's music choice is bizarr. The cover is bizarr, and makes you wonder if the skater read the lyrics -- she was smiling in the beginning of the program. The kid is fifteen, she looks full 12 years old, and the lyrics are very adult.

Here is how this song should sound IMO:

Spoiler: A nicer cover

Another skater worth mentioning is Alina Gorbacheva. She has lines and extension, seems to have speed and can skate to piano music. There are lots of good piano music, but navigating it takes a bit of education, and her coaches are quite young, maybe they should get advice from someone. Her skate was frantic and there seems no progress in SS since last year, and there needs to be. She might get the 4S back but she might also loose time chasing it -- something to think about -- Sinitsina and Frolova are in top 6 without ultra-C.

Russian women are pushing for content, but the lack of basic musical education and taste seems pretty apparent, that's why it's a bit hard to watch. This takes learning, but the problem is they don't go to top-level choreographers, so it's kinda hard for them to learn. The winner of this competition had the nicest music of the day, but this music choice is also a recycled idea -- Stanislava Konstantinova skated to it before, and something is telling me that if Stanislava hadn't skated to it, Adelia wouldn't be skating to it either.

Totally.

The FS music selection this year in Russia was widely terrible - theres no excuse. I agree there seems to be a lack of sophistication which is bizarre given the music history of Russia. I also find it odd how few people recognize how inappropriate some of these songs are. However I wasnt impressed internationally at all either with the music. You're also kind of picking at skaters fresh from juniors with little experience (and not even the best of that category). Nevermind that we lost Akateva this year.

Also your off-hand implication that minor keys could somehow indicate an objective lack of sophistication is bizarre. I'm not a fan of vapid drama either but, I dont know what place minor keys could intrinsically have in regards to objective musical analysis.

Given that SS is a measure of technique and not artistry I find that its extremely disingenuous to compare Japanese SS to Russian SS when Russian girls jump multiple ultra-c. Even then, I dont see Valieva, Petrosian, Sinitsyna or Sadkova's SS as poor at all. You can even throw Gushchina in there (although her FS music was also quite poor).

I didnt watch the Japanese nationals but I did see the 3 Japanese girls internationally and the only one who's FS impressed me artistically was Rino. Shes very sophisticated, but I dont put her any higher than Petrosian artistically. I also liked Muravieva's FS a lot though I'm sure you disagree so you can ignore that. Sadkova was good but not Rino level of course. Sinitsyna historically is second to none but her FS was also uncharacteristically lacking this year, but her SP was great. I'll mention also that in general Kaori had some of her weakest programs ever artistically too this year.

The SPs this year in Russia were generally much stronger than the FS artistically.

Dvoeglazova and Prineva from juniors have fabuluous free skates but perhaps this isnt relevant.

I should add also that your comment about Adeliia's music is beyond pointless. Rachmaninoff or Bolero have been skated to countless times but good music does not get worn out.

I'd appreciate if you can let me know which Japanese skaters you believe demonstrate the superiority of Japan aside from Rino, who I mentioned, but alone does not prove superiority to me. I dont recall if Rinka impressed me this year though I did watch her - and as I mentioned Kaori was not who she should be which from what I understand is a majority perspective internationally.

 

[yume]

Japanese skaters, in general, have better SS, but lack performance abilities. More specifically, extroversion on ice, which imo what judges like the most, because it's glaring. Judges like extrovert and speedey skaters (and incidentally big jumps, which can elevate a bad program). I guess that's why Loena gets those big PCS ( i went watch her programs to see if all the shade was warranted. It was). And also why is Kaori is getting such cosmic PCS. Because of a combination of reputation, speed, and extroversion (not at Leona's level, but more than most of other Japaneses).
Imo, Kaori doesn't have the best SS. She has the best speed, which is one aspect of good SS, the most glaring. Any day, i would rank a clean Rino Matsuike and Mone Chiiba above her in SS and PCS overall. It might sounds crazy since judges gave her 77 PCS and the next highest PCS was 66, as if she was the epitome of artistry and that her FP was fine art.

That's some "qualities" that most Russians have. They were doing good internationally despite not having the best SS. They were selling the programs better. A good commercial can sell a medium product. A bad commercial won't sell a premium product.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

I really like this eternal condescending look down on Russian figure skaters. I wonder how many more competitions and by what margin in points the Russian girls would have to win against the “world team” in order for this ridiculous situation to finally change?

The contempt for Russian choreographers is especially surprising. They are, of course, not of a high level at all. But by a strange coincidence, the programs they produced won three Olympiads in a row, not counting the World Championships, European Championships and many Grand Prix tournaments. Just some kind of paradox!

A good example is the career of Aliona Kostornaya. When she performed the programs of the despicable Daniil Gleikhengauz, she won. As soon as Shae-Lynn Bourn was invited for Aliona, everything immediately went somewhere. Probably, in order for a choreographer to be recognized as an outstanding master of his craft, his program must fail in competition.

Sometimes you can compare choreography directly. Here is a short program choreographed by an inept Russian choreographer:


And here is a program for the same music, choreographed by the great David Wilson:


What a nightmare that we see this at 0:49?! Is this really a “senseless kick from karate”?! And the one-knee slide before this looks suspiciously like a direct quote from the despicable Russian choreographer.

 

[yume]

I really like this eternal condescending look down on Russian figure skaters. I wonder how many more competitions and by what margin in points the Russian girls would have to win against the “world team” in order for this ridiculous situation to finally change?

The contempt for Russian choreographers is especially surprising. They are, of course, not of a high level at all. But by a strange coincidence, the programs they produced won three Olympiads in a row, not counting the World Championships, European Championships and many Grand Prix tournaments. Just some kind of paradox!

A good example is the career of Aliona Kostornaya. When she performed the programs of the despicable Daniil Gleikhengauz, she won. As soon as Shae-Lynn Bourn was invited for Aliona, everything immediately went somewhere. Probably, in order for a choreographer to be recognized as an outstanding master of his craft, his program must fail in competition.

Sometimes you can compare choreography directly. Here is a short program choreographed by an inept Russian choreographer:


And here is a program for the same music, choreographed by the great David Wilson:


What a nightmare that we see this at 0:49?! Is this really a “senseless kick from karate”?! And the one-knee slide before this looks suspiciously like a direct quote from the despicable Russian choreographer.

The disdain Gleikhengauz receive comes more from the reputation of his camp and the Billie Eilish gate, than this own work imo. Someone just has to go in old archived threads, pre Medvedeva's leaving for heaven (TCC), to see that he was even relatively liked and more people were aknowledging his good works. Not saying he doesn't have bad works, he clearly has. But he also produces good programs. The most funny was the dichotomy of people saying how bad his programs were but also wanting high PCS for the skater (as in Kostornaya's case). I'm sorry, if the program is bad, a skater no matter how good he/she is, doesn't deserve 35+ and 70+.

About the others Russian choreographers, i have to say that i don't know many of them. But there are many programs that have nothing to envy to the ones choreographed by Bourne, Richaud or Nichols. And these choreographers are not even perfect. Some works are dubious (especially Richaud's), they give the same musics to their skaters, sometimes the same moves, no one notice.

 

[LolaSkatesInJapan]

I watch both skating worlds closely. The Russian since it's my favorite, I have a history with Russia since I trained classical ballet over there, many wonderful memories and life experiences as a teenager/young adult. And the Japanese, since I'm living in Japan, train figure skating in Japan, some Tokyo seniors and juniors come to train in the same rink I train, love watching them, and my coach has trained skaters competing in the ISU grand prix series. One can enjoy the Japanese figure skating world and appreciate it for what it is, but to say that it is superior to the Russians or even compare it to the Russians is very laughable in my humble opinion.

The FS music selection this year in Russia was widely terrible - theres no excuse. I agree there seems to be a lack of sophistication which is bizarre given the music history of Russia. I also find it odd how few people recognize how inappropriate some of these songs are. However I wasnt impressed internationally at all either with the music. You're also kind of picking at skaters fresh from juniors with little experience (and not even the best of that category). Nevermind that we lost Akateva this year.

Also your off-hand implication that minor keys could somehow indicate an objective lack of sophistication is bizarre. I'm not a fan of vapid drama either but, I dont know what place minor keys could intrinsically have in regards to objective musical analysis.

Given that SS is a measure of technique and not artistry I find that its extremely disingenuous to compare Japanese SS to Russian SS when Russian girls jump multiple ultra-c. Even then, I dont see Valieva, Petrosian, Sinitsyna or Sadkova's SS as poor at all. You can even throw Gushchina in there (although her FS music was also quite poor).

I didnt watch the Japanese nationals but I did see the 3 Japanese girls internationally and the only one who's FS impressed me artistically was Rino. Shes very sophisticated, but I dont put her any higher than Petrosian artistically. I also liked Muravieva's FS a lot though I'm sure you disagree so you can ignore that. Sadkova was good but not Rino level of course. Sinitsyna historically is second to none but her FS was also uncharacteristically lacking this year, but her SP was great. I'll mention also that in general Kaori had some of her weakest programs ever artistically too this year.

The SPs this year in Russia were generally much stronger than the FS artistically.

Dvoeglazova and Prineva from juniors have fabuluous free skates but perhaps this isnt relevant.

I should add also that your comment about Adeliia's music is beyond pointless. Rachmaninoff or Bolero have been skated to countless times but good music does not get worn out.

I'd appreciate if you can let me know which Japanese skaters you believe demonstrate the superiority of Japan aside from Rino, who I mentioned, but alone does not prove superiority to me. I dont recall if Rinka impressed me this year though I did watch her - and as I mentioned Kaori was not who she should be which from what I understand is a majority perspective internationally.

 

[Jontor]

Russian women are pushing for content

Yes they certainly do, and that's because figure skating is 75% about content. The whole scoring system is designed that way.
So it's no surprise that Russian women, who has the most fierce competition domestically, is pushing technical content because it is simply the only way to get competitive.

Just face it people. Figure skating is mostly about the tech. If you want it to be something else, I recommend you to complain to the ISU.

Personally, I love good figure skating that is both technical and artistic. When it comes to female skaters, I find myself rooting mostly for Russian women. I just can't appreciate skaters like Ziegler (who can't do a 3+3), Glenn (who can't seem to get all the jumps done), and we shouldn't even mention all the skaters that can't even do a Lutz.

 

[Jontor]

The most funny was the dichotomy of people saying how bad his programs were but also wanting high PCS for the skater (as in Kostornaya's case).

Yes, Kostornaya is an interesting example. Gleikhengauz managed to package her perfectly. Kostornaya was never one of the most technical skaters, She has a great pose, that is her strength, and sometimes people mistake that for artistry.

I remember her at Russian Junior Nationals 2017. She was a nobody and she finished 16th behind the likes of Kurakova, Nugumanova, Samodurova and Talalaikina. And while she was waiting for her (not so good) scores, the fans were all over Gubanova for autographs.

Then she moved to the Eteri camp, and they brilliantly transformed her into a star. That is choreographically genius. And it is an example of making the most of what you got. So Gleikhengauz and Co certainly have some success stories that wouldn't have happened without their direction.