2023 Grand Prix de France Women's Free Skate

[Joekaz]

The thing is that complaining about the results doesn't change the results (at least it hasn't since the 2002 Olympics pairs event), so that's why I try not to say anything when I'm not happy about the scores. I'll admit when I don't like someone's program, but I have no influence on the scores it receives. I'm just a fan of figure skating, nothing more, nothing less.

What is the purpose of a skating discussion forum if you don't state your opinion on scoring you think is obviously bogus? To just only talk about positive things and blindly pretend like designated winners and champions are always legitimate assures continued corruption. It's not like many people think figure skating is actually a legitimate sport the way it is judged. It may not change results, but it relieves some of the frustration of not getting fair judging of a sport you otherwise like.

 

[skatesofgold]

What is the purpose of a skating discussion forum if you don't state your opinion on scoring you think is obviously bogus? To just only talk about positive things and blindly pretend like designated winners and champions are always legitimate assures continued corruption. It's not like many people think figure skating is actually a legitimate sport the way it is judged. It may not change results, but it relieves some of the frustration of not getting fair judging of a sport you otherwise like.

I just don't think it helps (and this goes for any sport, because complaining about refs has never helped either), and I rather talk about the programs themselves or music choices or athletic achievements. Maybe because I'm relatively younger on this board (millennial), I just don't think 100% fair judging is possible because humans themselves are imperfect. I think it's impossible to be impartial for a lot of reasons that I've noticed regarding sports (for one, I don't think I've ever heard an unbiased commentator across all sports). Also, the people who don't think figure skating is a sport are never going to think of it as a sport, fair judging or not.

 

[Joekaz]

I just don't think it helps (and this goes for any sport, because complaining about refs has never helped either), and I rather talk about the programs themselves or music choices or athletic achievements. Maybe because I'm relatively younger on this board (millennial), I just don't think 100% fair judging is possible because humans themselves are imperfect. I think it's impossible to be impartial for a lot of reasons that I've noticed regarding sports (for one, I don't think I've ever heard an unbiased commentator across all sports). Also, the people who don't think figure skating is a sport are never going to think of it as a sport, fair judging or not.

I'm sorry, maybe it's your youth and inexperience. But if you think this sport is judged anywhere near the level of competency or honesty of the major sports, then you have a rude awakening coming my friend. Skating is judged on a level of professional wrestling and a beauty contest. The skating itself is a sport. The corrupt judging and organization that runs it are what disqualifies it.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I just don't think it helps (and this goes for any sport, because complaining about refs has never helped either), and I rather talk about the programs themselves or music choices or athletic achievements. Maybe because I'm relatively younger on this board (millennial), I just don't think 100% fair judging is possible because humans themselves are imperfect. I think it's impossible to be impartial for a lot of reasons that I've noticed regarding sports (for one, I don't think I've ever heard an unbiased commentator across all sports). Also, the people who don't think figure skating is a sport are never going to think of it as a sport, fair judging or not.

For that matter, I totally agree with you... But when i had 'complains', i was complaining because numbers on the paper I saw were not right in my opinion, maybe because statistic is my everyday job and i'm too much into it, and the first time I actually called the judge who was 'way outside the box with his numbers' i named him judge No2. And we all can have different opinions, but we are not the judges who suppose to judge by some written rules, no matter they like those rules or not.

 

[skatesofgold]

I'm sorry, maybe it's your youth and inexperience. But if you think this sport is judged anywhere near the level of competency or honesty of the major sports, then you have a rude awakening coming my friend. Skating is judged on a level of professional wrestling and a beauty contest. The skating itself is a sport. The corrupt judging and organization that runs it are what disqualifies it.

I'm 35, not 12, and believe me, I'm old enough to know that if you don't want refs to determine how a game finishes, don't give them a reason in the first place. As far as figure skating goes, 2002 is exactly the reason why I don't expect fairness, and I'm the first person to admit that I don't know what the right balance of artistry and athletism is because I prefer athleticism. I don't think artistry can be judged impartially. If judges are corrupt, I just try to enjoy the programs for what they are. I also don't know what judges should do when everyone has mistakes, which is what happened in the 2014 olympics men's event, and that's exactly how I feel about this women's event. Isabeau is my favorite because my faves tend to be American or Russian, but I don't know who should have won. That's not up to me to determine. I don't watch figure skating to be a couch judge. If I care too much, I end up disappointed.

 

[TallyT]

I just don't think 100% fair judging is possible

But could we please aim for say 60-75% to start with? Is that too much to ask?

Isabeau is my favorite because my faves tend to be American or Russian

I always get confused by this, liking individual people because of the colour of their passport, can you explain how it happens?

 

[Joekaz]

Even in a sloppy competition like this, there aren't that many mistakes where you can't keep track. Especially with slow motion replay and judges scorecard available. I understand that you are a casual fan that doesn't want to take the time to go too deep. Nothing wrong with that. I'm no skating expert either. But the discrepancies between the judging and what I see are so frequent and blatant, even a layman can see it without too much effort. I go back to Janet Lynn, and believe me, this system is just as corrupt as the 6.0 system, probably more so.

 

[skatesofgold]

Even in a sloppy competition like this, there aren't that many mistakes where you can't keep track. Especially with slow motion replay and judges scorecard available. I understand that you are a casual fan that doesn't want to take the time to go too deep. Nothing wrong with that. I'm no skating expert either. But the discrepancies between the judging and what I see are so frequent and blatant, even a layman can see it without too much effort. I go back to Janet Lynn, and believe me, this system is just as corrupt as the 6.0 system, probably more so.

I sometimes think it's because during the first competition I ever remember (1994 Olympics ladies), it was unclear who the winner should be, so I just always assumed that's how figure skating is. It's a constant debate. Maybe if I had a list of the most fairly judged events to watch/rewatch, it would help?

 

[Joekaz]

I sometimes think it's because during the first competition I ever remember (1994 Olympics ladies), it was unclear who the winner should be, so I just always assumed that's how figure skating is. It's a constant debate. Maybe if I had a list of the most fairly judged events to watch/rewatch, it would help?

Its not how figure skating is. It is how the corrupt ISU and national feds that administer the sport are. Because it is a relatively minor sport worldwide they have got away with it my whole life. That is why skating fans have no faith in the judging and look for themselves at the scoring.

 

[skatesofgold]

But could we please aim for say 60-75% to start with? Is that too much to ask?


I always get confused by this, liking individual people because of the colour of their passport, can you explain how it happens?

Because I'm not unbiased. I watch figure skating and gymnastics similarly to how I watch mainstream sports. I don't really know how not to. I root for the Americans because I'm American, and at least as far as pairs and women's go, the Russians have been the epitome of excellence. Have I liked all their programs, of course not, but I recognize greatness when I see it.

 

[TallyT]

I sometimes think it's because during the first competition I ever remember (1994 Olympics ladies), it was unclear who the winner should be, so I just always assumed that's how figure skating is. It's a constant debate. Maybe if I had a list of the most fairly judged events to watch/rewatch, it would help?

Well not here, because you know in your heart of hearts that everyone has a different list anyway so derailing would be inevitable (I am not saying for one minute that your list would be dodgy, but even the most optimistic fan would not expect many to agree with them, that's why every single event since the bone skates of early man has been furiously debated).

 

[TallyT]

Because I'm not unbiased. I watch figure skating and gymnastics similarly to how I watch mainstream sports. I don't really know how not to. I root for the Americans because I'm American, and at least as far as pairs and women's go, the Russians have been the epitome of excellence. Have I liked all their programs, of course not, but I recognize greatness when I see it.

But some of them have been awful and some overscored to the moon and back... do they all get a pass on 'national greatness'???

I can see liking your countrymen to win (reflected glory and all that, every nation does it which is human nature if not the better side of it) but I simply don't understand 'this individual is simply better because of the flag they represent' and I never have. In any sport or any other endeavour.

 

[skatesofgold]

Well not here, because you know in your heart of hearts that everyone has a different list anyway so derailing would be inevitable (I am not saying for one minute that your list would be dodgy, but even the most optimistic fan would not expect many to agree with them, that's why every single event since the bone skates of early man has been furiously debated).

And that's the problem isn't it? Because all of our lists would be different.

But some of them have been awful and some overscored to the moon and back... do they all get a pass on 'national greatness'???

I can see liking your countrymen to win (reflected glory and all that, every nation does it) but I simply don't understand 'this individual is simply better because of the flag they represent' and I never have. In any sport or any other endeavour.

I've never seen the Russians as being overscored mostly because they've gone above and beyond difficulty-wise. Same reason why I always thought as long as Nathan Chen went clean, he would be the clear winner.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I sometimes think it's because during the first competition I ever remember (1994 Olympics ladies), it was unclear who the winner should be, so I just always assumed that's how figure skating is. It's a constant debate. Maybe if I had a list of the most fairly judged events to watch/rewatch, it would help?

For me personally, the fair judging is showing by the numbers they put on their sheets. Now, i again agree with you, how sometimes the winner is 'unclear'. I was saying that all 3 ladies in Sochi deserved gold, but the competition was in Russia, so Sotnikova won, if that competition was 4 years later in Korea, I'm pretty sure YuNa would won, and if that competition was at next Olympics in Italy, Karolina would won. Because home crowd matters, and judges are human after all. But to be fair - majority of judges actually did have the similar scores at that competition, and would probably come with the similar scores for another winner if those Olympics were in another place. This time, i've just called the judge who obviously disagreed with the other judges in this particular competition. He is a clear statistical anomaly, no matter who he is, or which country he represents.

 

[TallyT]

I've never seen the Russians as being overscored...

I think it would be a good idea to stop right there - especially in this thread, which doesn't need derailing on that issue. So I will simply withdraw right. now.

 

[Lutzedge]

But some of them have been awful and some overscored to the moon and back... do they all get a pass on 'national greatness'???

I can see liking your countrymen to win (reflected glory and all that, every nation does it which is human nature if not the better side of it) but I simply don't understand 'this individual is simply better because of the flag they represent' and I never have. In any sport or any other endeavour.

I see rooting for specific countries (American if your American, Russian if your Russian, and so on) as not much different from rooting for the LA Dodgers being from LA or the New York Yankees being from New York (just examples). Just like being an American but rooting for Russians because of their dominance could be like routing for a top Football or Baseball team because they are good. This part makes sense. But looking in fairness, I may route for Yuzuru Hanyu cause I prefer his skating, but if Nathan was better and deserved to win, I would have no reason to argue. In my case, I am from the USA and have watched US Figure Skating for years. I tend to know a lot of US skaters and root for them, but I also prefer other skaters from different countries (Russia, France, Italy, etc...) over some skaters from the US at times. I like figure skating very much in general, and have certain skaters I may think are stronger than others, but I also try to look at it in a standpoint of what seems more right in judging.

I'm not disagreeing, but just wanted to give my view on it.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

It's totally fine to root for the skaters of your country, that's even normal if you are a 'die hard fan' of the sport. I just don't like when people disregard other skaters because of nationality or because of any other etiquettes we tends to put on another people. Probably because of my forum's name, i need to remind people i'm not a Russian, and when i was rooting for Medvedeva, Zagitova or Scherbakova it is just because i really enjoyed watching their skating performances. The same way i preferred watching Lysacek or Johny Weir to Plushenko or any Russian male skaters at that time (but i was not on this forum to express that). I guess it's a little bit easier to enjoy everybody's skating when you don't have a representative of your country fighting for the medals, or if you are not against something for whatever reason you have - i think the point is not to thrive to be against something, just to enjoy in those things you enjoy, and to be open-minded to find more of it in every different skater you watch.

 

[4everchan]

Ermmm... i will leave aside a lot of the comments but as a Canadian, of course I root for Canadian skaters. Obviously, not exclusively.
We like whom we know. A fan of the sport, goes to events. Local events are often attended, even at novice and junior levels. Then, a fan of the sport will go to Nationals... or at least watch it. A fan will automatically get to discover young talent, follow their evolution and cheer for them.
I discovered Conrad Orzel when he was skating junior. He is nothing compared to Patrick Chan. I don't root for him because I think he is better than others I know what he needs to work on more than anyone else but his coach I just cheer for him because I have been a fan for years. Sometimes, I get to discover a young skater from another country and will root for them too. But the exposure is definitely helping.
Many Americans on this forum are cheering for the home talent. Same with Canadians. Same with Russians. Most active people who visit the Canadian skating thread are, surprise-surprise, Canadians. Also, some of my tax money goes to fund sports (all sports) so might as well benefit from it right? So yeah, it's completely fine to have a special affinity with skaters from your own country. What is not fine is to be dismissive of skaters based on which country they represent. I have had favourites from all over the place + my Canadian home boys and girls

 

[Skating91]

Wow, i have never seen bigger discrepancy in judging one skater in my whole life. USA judge gave Gubanova 5.75 ,6.75, 6.50 for the components and total score of 107.58 ranking her 10th in the free skate (which is way out of the box ), while Suisse judge gave 8.50, 8.25, 8.25 and total score of 126.59. I think Japanese judge was the fairest one with 7.75, 8.00, 7.50 in components and 123.60 for the total score.
E: The same American judge gave Rion 129.36 for the free skate, placing her 3rd in the free

Imagine what Gubanova would be getting for jump GOE if she bent over and slowed to a crawl before each jump. Every clean landing would be 0 GOE. What if 3/6 of her jump elements in the short program were at the very least on the q if not underrotated this season(they would ding her every time)? Not to mention if she had repeated issues with the edge on her lutz and flip (she would be dinged every time). She wouldn't crack 50 points in a short program.

In any other sport or occupation this sport would be investigated for corruption or links to organised crime/gambling/match fixing (I'm not saying there are but where such imbalances exist it would necessitate investigation), and there would be a case for EU Commission looking to address discrimination (we need to be sure that these imbalances are completely random and due to incompetence and poor education of officials not discrimination).

I'm sure someone smart could take all this data and create a model which shows who is being advantaged or disadvantages and do it by age, weight, hair colour, coach, federation, etc. There is such a imbalance in judging for no justifiable reason that I think it could throw up some surprise results. Then we could address those biases and create a better sport for the fans and most importantly the athletes who break their bodies for our enjoyment.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Imagine what Gubanova would be getting for jump GOE if she bent over and slowed to a crawl before each jump. Every clean landing would be 0 GOE. What if 3/6 of her jump elements in the short program were at the very least on the q if not underrotated this season(they would ding her every time)? Not to mention if she had repeated issues with the edge on her lutz and flip (she would be dinged every time). She wouldn't crack 50 points in a short program.

Ok, you kinda ruined my crescendo i gave, with what i planned to finish my visit to this forum for this week But, if you ask for my opinion - I was watching Gubanova from her juniors days, and i think she is not one of the very best skaters in the worlds as some others thought or are maybe thinking now, but i do think that one judge (or maybe more) did injustice to her in this exact competition, not even because of a general placement she finished with, but because of some of the marks she received for her skating. It was just not fair to her, and that's all.