Arms over the head

[Mathman]

Watching the Europeans coverage on network TV in the US today, I was struck by the completeness of the "two-arms-iver-the-head" coup that seems to have oevertaken ladfies jump technique. For skaters such as Valieva, Trusova, and Kurakova, essentially every jump had this feature. When Brian Boitano introduced the 'Tano Lutz (one arm over the head) tecades ago, it was a program highlight. Now it seems to be expected. This made me wonder about the following questions.

1. Has the two-arms-over-the-head become the new normal? Is it now, or is it shortly to become, THE technique that will be taught to all young skaters on all jumps?

2. As this techniques bercomes more common and less special, will the ISJ judges strop rewarding it as a special feature in GOE?

3. Commentators always point out that this position makes the jump harder because it changes the center of gravity. Is it really intrinsically harder, or is it just a question of what technique you were taught at an early age?

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Watching the Europeans coverage on network TV in the US today, I was struck by the completeness of the "two-arms-iver-the-head" coup that seems to have oevertaken ladfies jump technique. For skaters such as Valieva, Trusova, and Kurakova, essentially every jump had this feature. When Brian Boitano introduced the 'Tano Lutz (one arm over the head) tecades ago, it was a program highlight. Now it seems to be expected. This made me wonder about the following questions.

1. Has the two-arms-over-the-head become the new normal? Is it now, or is it shortly to become, THE technique that will be taught to all young skaters on all jumps?

2. As this techniques bercomes more common and less special, will the ISJ judges strop rewarding it as a special feature in GOE?

3. Commentators always point out that this position makes the jump harder because it changes the center of gravity. Is it really intrinsically harder, or is it just a question of what technique you were taught at an early age?

This is the Rippon jump technique. Sadly, I don't think girls in certain skating schools jump any other way. It's annoying and should be limited.

 

[moonkat]

This is the Rippon jump technique. Sadly, I don't think girls in certain skating schools jump any other way. It's annoying and should be limited.

Right, it helps with the axis. Maybe switching up the arms in combo can be rewarded.

 

[gravy]

I've actually heard from skaters at my rink that it's easier to jump this way because it pulls them up higher to get their rotations in.

It's mostly annoying now but I have to say I'm used to it. I remember during the Medvedeva days it was infuriating because they weren't good Tanos. Zagitova definitely had the best ones and the current crop have ugly ones that don't add anything to the jump. I wouldn't mind if it were banned.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Right, it helps with the axis. Maybe switching up the arms in combo can be rewarded.

If you have proper jump technique you can jump with arms anywhere.

 

[dorispulaski]

Yes, the center of gravity is raised, but if the skater can go up straight in the air, so the axis of jump rotation goes through the center of gravity, perpendicular to the plane of the ice, that does not matter.

So If the skater can do a jump that way at all, you will note that rotational moment of inertia is less, so it is easier to rotate the jump.

Chris Howarth was commenting on the men's competition and was saying at this point, it is just a matter of how you learned your jumps.

I do not think it should get points as a feature.

In another year's rules, I think it would be nice to have arm position on jumps be varied.

 

[jenaj]

It was supposed to be a highlight, as noted. Seeing it with every jump make its an annoyance. What feature does it count for? Difficult entry? That seems like a stretch. If it is going to be rewarded, it should be done explicitly. And limited. Or not awarded points at all.

 

[yume]

I think judges don't value it anymore. Medvedeva was getting +2s and +3s thanks to it because it was new and she was the only one to do it (all the others who were doing it were in juniors, her luck). Aside the tano + the difficult exits of most of her jumps, there wasn't anything special. Sotskova started to do the same thing but she never matched Medvedeva's TES. That's why when Samodurova came with the same thing, she was mostly getting +1s to +2s (except at euros). Tanos were not making up for her tiny jumps.
All EX-russians (Kurakova, Shabotova, Safanova, Ryabova) do rippons on all jumps but almost always get low TES.
It only works for those who have big fed support.

That said, i would like to see skaters jump with hands on the hips. I think i only saw Nancy Kerrigan do it on a 2lz.

 

[Anna K.]

I'm tired of tanos. Thanks for asking. I wish they applied Zayak rule to arm positions when jumping.

 

[Rudel-chw]

I tought they jumped that way, particularly on the 4x jumps, because it was safer for the skater's spine whan they land the jump, as it keeps it straighter.

 

[Mathman]

Yes, the center of gravity is raised, but if the skater can go up straight in the air, so the axis of jump rotation goes through the center of gravity, perpendicular to the plane of the ice, that does not matter.

So If the skater can do a jump that way at all, you will note that rotational moment of inertia is less, so it is easier to rotate the jump.

This makes sense. Maybe it is not a coincidence that quads and raised arms work well together from a mechanical persdpective.

 

[lesnar001]

Does anybody still do "Tano" jumps with one arm overhead? All I have noticed recently are the "Rippon" jumps. I think maybe Liza T?

I remember that Alina Zagitova's jumps used both positions, as well as the conventional style with no arms raised. Rarely, if at all, did she extend her arms on her combination jumps (maybe just in practice).

Like anything else that becomes more commonplace, it tends to lose impact if overdone. Kind of like Morozov-style footwork sequences from the 2000's(?). Or Biellman spins for that matter. Do we even know if doing them adds to GOE? I know that Johnny & Tara say it does, but I thought it was removed from the scoring when GOE went from +3 to +5?

 

[4everchan]

easy : do like for the spins. I believe that there is one variation that can only be used once (jump???) I may be mistaken about this though.. but if that's the case, then, people can do whatever they want but only the first time a jump uses the arm variation it can count as a feature... i wouldn't care if a tano counted as one and a rippon as another... but at least, that way, nobody could just nail that feature for every single element..

PS : i love Jo's rippon lutz

 

[Amei]

Does anybody still do "Tano" jumps with one arm overhead? All I have noticed recently are the "Rippon" jumps. I think maybe Liza T?

The only skater I can think of that 'recently' did the one-arm overhead is Maria Sotskova (and I didn't remember her tanos for a good reason)

Like anything else that becomes more commonplace, it tends to lose impact if overdone. Kind of like Morozov-style footwork sequences from the 2000's(?). Or Biellman spins for that matter. Do we even know if doing them adds to GOE? I know that Johnny & Tara say it does, but I thought it was removed from the scoring when GOE went from +3 to +5?

I thought it was removed as well, I don't have the ambition to go Google it right now to confirm though. But GOE is honestly 90% reputation and 10% what's put on the ice IMO.

 

[Kitt]

I've been completely over it ever since Sotskova overdid it.

 

[Bentley]

Watching the Europeans coverage on network TV in the US today, I was struck by the completeness of the "two-arms-iver-the-head" coup that seems to have oevertaken ladfies jump technique. For skaters such as Valieva, Trusova, and Kurakova, essentially every jump had this feature. When Brian Boitano introduced the 'Tano Lutz (one arm over the head) tecades ago, it was a program highlight. Now it seems to be expected. This made me wonder about the following questions.

1. Has the two-arms-over-the-head become the new normal? Is it now, or is it shortly to become, THE technique that will be taught to all young skaters on all jumps?

2. As this techniques bercomes more common and less special, will the ISJ judges strop rewarding it as a special feature in GOE?

3. Commentators always point out that this position makes the jump harder because it changes the center of gravity. Is it really intrinsically harder, or is it just a question of what technique you were taught at an early age?

 

[Bentley]

I am getting pretty tired of it because it is way overdone. Overdone to the point it has lost it's appeal.
Especially when some do it on every jump and not very well either.

 

[skylark]

Like anything else that becomes more commonplace, it tends to lose impact if overdone. Kind of like Morozov-style footwork sequences from the 2000's(?). Or Biellman spins for that matter.

Yes -- with a groan. I'd rather never see another Biellman.

Do we even know if doing them adds to GOE? I know that Johnny & Tara say it does, but I thought it was removed from the scoring when GOE went from +3 to +5?

Someone (must have been Ted, because it was in English) said recently while Kamila was skating that she learned the jumps when the both arms variation was being rewarded, but Kamila still does them that way because it's a lot of effort to re-learn without. So I think your statement is right, the "adds to GOE" has been removed.

I still think the Rippon variation looks great. But I hate the 'tano the way some of the Russian girls did/do them, sort of waving around or flopping. I think Liza T still does them, but sparingly, but honestly I don't like hers either.

 

[jenaj]

Yes -- with a groan. I'd rather never see another Biellman.



Someone (must have been Ted, because it was in English) said recently while Kamila was skating that she learned the jumps when the both arms variation was being rewarded, but Kamila still does them that way because it's a lot of effort to re-learn without. So I think your statement is right, the "adds to GOE" has been removed.

I still think the Rippon variation looks great. But I hate the 'tano the way some of the Russian girls did/do them, sort of waving around or flopping. I think Liza T still does them, but sparingly, but honestly I don't like hers either.

Someone needs to tell Tara and Johnny, because they are always remarking on someone jumping with the arms aloft and, if I recall correctly, saying it adds to the GOE.

 

[macy]

i prefer Rippon arms to Tano arms, mainly because the Rippons are more extended and visually pleasing than many helicopter Tanos that are not extended and their forearm is basically resting on top of their head. it's so ugly and IMO should not get full credit for a Tano feature. sorry Medvedeva, Sotskova, Tuktamysheva.