Arms over the head

[NanaPat]

No kidding. Especially when done on both (or all 3) jumps in combinations, it looks like kindergarteners singing In a Cottage in The Wood, the part where they throw up their arms three times, while singing, "Help me, help me, help me!"

RSNO Junior Chorus: In A Cottage In A Wood

Learn the actions to In A Cottage In A Wood with members of the RSNO Junior Chorus! This audio track is from the RSNO Junior Chorus' album A Christmas Festiv...

youtu.be

Perhaps someone could do a program with ALL the arm motions from the song. Heck, use the song as the sound track.

 

[reneerose]

Maybe the judges can start marking down PCS for overuse of the arms above the head. Evgenia M did it a lot and overall I'm just tired of seeing it. If they want a jump fest, have an All Star Figure Skating comp separate from the Olympics and have everyone do a bunch of those like throwing 3 pointers into a basket at the NBA or home run derby at the MLB All Star game. Make it a hands over the head jump derby

 

[Amei]

Maybe the judges can start marking down PCS for overuse of the arms above the head. Evgenia M did it a lot and overall I'm just tired of seeing it. If they want a jump fest, have an All Star Figure Skating comp separate from the Olympics and have everyone do a bunch of those like throwing 3 pointers into a basket at the NBA or home run derby at the MLB All Star game. Make it a hands over the head jump derby

Or maybe the judges should mark down the PCS of skaters doing the overused arms across the chest when they jump, I mean for decades that has been used over and over and over again for arm placement

 

[skatedreamer]

Or maybe the judges should mark down the PCS of skaters doing the overused arms across the chest when they jump, I mean for decades that has been used over and over and over again for arm placement

Arms over the head, across the chest, wherever...after these Olympics, I could get on board with adding a separate jumping event for the jump specialists.

That said, I've always just assumed that across the chest was the standard arm placement for jumps to make the body as compact as possible during rotation. Never even thought there were options until Brian Boitano came up with his Tano Lutz.

 

[gkelly]

Arms over the head, across the chest, wherever...after these Olympics, I could get on board with adding a separate jumping event for the jump specialists.

Agreed.

That said, I've always just assumed that across the chest was the standard arm placement for jumps to make the body as compact as possible during rotation. Never even thought there were options until Brian Boitano came up with his Tano Lutz.

Definitely in the 1970s and earlier 80s, when skaters who could do double axels and triples were required to do doubles and occasionally single axels in their short programs, and often included one or more doubles in their freeskates in addition to whatever triples they could do, it was pretty common to use variations on these lower revolution jumps. That remained true in the early 1990s when women were still required to do solo double as the jump out of steps.

Boitano may have been the first, or one of the first, to use an arm variation on a triple.

I like this single axel with one arm overhead in the air and the other arm on the landing.

 

[skatedreamer]

Agreed.

Definitely in the 1970s and earlier 80s, when skaters who could do double axels and triples were required to do doubles and occasionally single axels in their short programs, and often included one or more doubles in their freeskates in addition to whatever triples they could do, it was pretty common to use variations on these lower revolution jumps. That remained true in the early 1990s when weomen were still required to do solo double as the jump out of steps.

Boitano may have been the first, or one of the first, to use an arm variation on a triple.

I like this single axel with one arm overhead in the air and the other arm on the landing.

Thanks, that was lovely to watch! John Curry + Rachmaninov—what more could anyone ask?

 

[lizardlass]

I'm just getting sick of hearing Johnny and Tara rhapsodize every single time a skater does it. Like arms over the head automatically means a jump deserves heaps of positive GOE, and cancels out any deficiencies in technique.

 

[skatedreamer]

I'm just getting sick of hearing Johnny and Tara rhapsodize every single time a skater does it. Like arms over the head automatically means a jump deserves heaps of positive GOE, and cancels out any deficiencies in technique.

It just occurred to me that the overhead thing could serve as a distraction from technical issues. I’m no expert (UNDERSTATEMENT) but somehow when the arms are up, it seems like that’s where the eyes naturally want to go. And if your eyes are on the skater’s arms, chances are you’re gonna miss what’s happening with their feet. Like a 2-footed landing?

 

[noskates]

Initiallly I was impressed with this but now I'm just tired of seeing it. It's wayyyyy overdone and not always done well.

 

[Ares]

Initiallly I was impressed with this but now I'm just tired of seeing it. It's wayyyyy overdone and not always done well.

Me too. But at least we see less ugly helicopter-tanos variation now. It was all the rage not that long ago still.

 

[Trusova4Ever]

What about quads with the arms over the head? Anna is the only one of the current top Russian ladies, that are senior right now, who jump quads with her arms in the traditional position. I must admit, while her take off is sketch I have always thought that she has one of the best air positions for quads, after she gets her leg tucked in. While I like quads with arms over the head on some skaters (Trusova, Valieva, Khromyhk, Zhou, Danielian) and think that when done right they really add the aesthetics of the air position, I can turn around and hate them on others' quads (Samodelkina, Akatieva). But regardless of whether I like the position on some skaters rather than others I have noticed, with Trusova for example when she added the rippon variation in the 2020-2021 season and continues to do so, that adding the rippon makes quads look more effortless, but sometimes to the extent of making them look less impressive. The quads that Sasha landed when she was with Plushenko were some of the best of her career when she hit. Earlier in the season it was clear he was focusing on getting her into tight rotation faster and when she hit that occasional jaw dropping-ly massive quad, like the 4S at that one Russian cup stage, she looked INCREDIBLE in the air flying across the rink with her arms tucked at her chest. But later in that season, and in this season, while her quads still look impressive with the rippon and so easy for her, there isn't that WOW moment so much now, even if the quad, which is usually the Salchow, is massive and landed perfectly, like at the US Classic in Boston last year.
I also noticed this with Kamila at test skates and on the JGP circuit, before she added the rippon to improve her axis, her 4T, when she hit, looked amazing and beautiful!

 

[Alex Fedorov]

What about quads with the arms over the head? Anna is the only one of the current top Russian ladies, that are senior right now, who jump quads with her arms in the traditional position.

Explanations of Anna Shcherbakova (starting at 22:26):



-So, I see, it's great, but how does it happen when you jump with your hands over your head?

Yes, with hands on top, the jump technique is generally similar. We usually hold our hands like this and press them to ourselves. And here…

-Yes, we were taught that we should do like this - hop, and [we spin ourselves]

And here, in the same way, you move your hands (gets up and shows) and connect them at the top. This is also really the case - as you jumped for the first time, so then you сonnect your hands - so that you feel comfortable.

-Come on, I'll try, teach me, show me a master class (gets up and goes out of the chair). Can we do it here now?.. Look - this is how Adelina Sotnikova taught me: step, bounce, spin and ...

Here, it's pretty good! This is your axel, that is, a jump from the front. And in the same way - you take your hands to yourself, but here you need to bring your hands up and connect. For example, I put my hands together like this (shows). That is, I take my right hand with my left hand. But maybe be different way more convenient for someone.

- That is, you need to spin yourself in the same way, and ...

But you need to work out this movement ... Like this, yes. In the same way, bring your hands up (shows).

-I'm going to try now! (Jumps with arms up)

Here, in my opinion, it turned out even better!

- It worked, right? Great, but that's about it.

There are actually athletes who find it easier to jump with their hands up, because it somehow lifts the body more into the air.

- But it's harder to spin yourself, or not?

Well, it depends on the habit. For example, I do some jumps only with my hands up and if I am asked to perform the same elements “without hands”, then I will probably fall a lot of times and not immediately be able to remember what to do.

 

[mskater93]

I have a friend who is a coach whose skaters asked her to teach them the arms over the head technique and as she broke it down on videos, she realized that this particular method is being used to pre-rotate the shoulders and use the whole body to generate the moment of inertia in the jump and that multi-rotation jumps are actually easier this way

 

[skatedreamer]

I have a friend who is a coach whose skaters asked her to teach them the arms over the head technique and as she broke it down on videos, she realized that this particular method is being used to pre-rotate the shoulders and use the whole body to generate the moment of inertia in the jump and that multi-rotation jumps are actually easier this way

I don't have even the tiniest fraction of a clue about how the physics works (pathetically math/science challenged) but on some gut level this makes sense to me. Something about getting the body into a more aerodynamically efficient shape?

 

[LiamForeman]

But isn't it weird that arms above is soooo easy that it finally took over 100 years of skating for someone to figure that out?!?! Doesn't make much sense to me.... I like and prefer the arms up. The jumps look higher and more extended. The ugly helicopter arm (Sotskova, Medvedeva, Samodurova) should get a penalty IMO.

It's just weird that certain coaches are suddenly coming out of the woodwork saying arms up makes a jump easier. Well, why didn't they teach that technique when their own students were (and still are) falling all over the ice with their "harder"/traditional technique. I don't believe that bull.

 

[Trusova4Ever]

You know it is bad when arms at the chest becomes the variation.

 

[LiamForeman]

You know it is bad when arms at the chest becomes the variation.

Yeah, apparently it is the more difficult variation... lol. Maybe Karen Chen should have learned the "easier" arms up technique so she wouldn't be falling all the time. And the arms up technique that Hanna Harrell started to do didn't make it easier for her to land her jumps either. So which is it? Sour grapes is my suspicion.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I don't have even the tiniest fraction of a clue about how the physics works (pathetically math/science challenged) but on some gut level this makes sense to me. Something about getting the body into a more aerodynamically efficient shape?

I feel like from a physic standpoint it makes sense. Throwing your body up to a certain height versus throwing part of your body weight higher would make it seem easier to generate height. The pre-rotation thing is interesting but I think that is pretty standard on several jumps where the upper body leads the jump in the rotation to generate the torque needed to rotate the jump.

I wouldn't go so far as calling it an "easier" variation. It's like saying going into a jump with more speed is an easier variation because it allows you to generate more height. If you've ever tried to do a tano or rippon jump, it still takes a ton of core strength and flexibility to straighten your body like that and keep in straight in spite of rotating.

Just try doing a backspin with your arms at your chest vs a backspin with your arms above your head. Similar to a Rippon, you do get faster rotation (perhaps this is why so many skaters would do that to close their programs in classic skating programs because you rotate even faster with your arms above), but it's still not easy to control. Especially difficult to spin/jump with hands above your head if your spin/jump isn't centred/off axis.

 

[mskater93]

I feel like from a physic standpoint it makes sense. Throwing your body up to a certain height versus throwing part of your body weight higher would make it seem easier to generate height. The pre-rotation thing is interesting but I think that is pretty standard on several jumps where the upper body leads the jump in the rotation to generate the torque needed to rotate the jump.

I wouldn't go so far as calling it an "easier" variation. It's like saying going into a jump with more speed is an easier variation because it allows you to generate more height. If you've ever tried to do a tano or rippon jump, it still takes a ton of core strength and flexibility to straighten your body like that and keep in straight in spite of rotating.

Just try doing a backspin with your arms at your chest vs a backspin with your arms above your head. Similar to a Rippon, you do get faster rotation (perhaps this is why so many skaters would do that to close their programs in classic skating programs because you rotate even faster with your arms above), but it's still not easy to control. Especially difficult to spin/jump with hands above your head if your spin/jump isn't centred/off axis.

I would ask that you go look slow motion at jumps from someone like Valieva or Trusova to understand my coaching friend's point about generating momentum and this particular technique on getting jumps rotated/in the air. The shoulders getting ahead of the core and lower body is why many of those quad attempts aren't pretty on the landing. She wrote an incredibly LONG thread on FB about her findings regarding the technique which was much more in depth. I can tell you that NEITHER of my coaches approve of this technique nor will they teach it because they feel it is not truly correct.

 

[Amei]

I would ask that you go look slow motion at jumps from someone like Valieva or Trusova to understand my coaching friend's point about generating momentum and this particular technique on getting jumps rotated/in the air. The shoulders getting ahead of the core and lower body is why many of those quad attempts aren't pretty on the landing. She wrote an incredibly LONG thread on FB about her findings regarding the technique which was much more in depth. I can tell you that NEITHER of my coaches approve of this technique nor will they teach it because they feel it is not truly correct.

I believe Valieva did not start her quads with the arms over her head but she had some axis issues that the arms over her head helped her control it better. Trusova either, she didn't use to do her quads with her arms over her head, I think to increase her GOE she started doing it.