Article: Michelle Kwan: The Kwaniacs Attack!

[Piel]

If you can't offer a straight answer to a simple question try to bamboozle them with obscure quotes. -Piel

:sheesh: :sheesh: :sheesh:

 

[R.D.]

I'm sorry- but re. the comments that Piel quoted, I find a lot of those just legitimate opinions. They may not be backed by any reasoning but IN MY OPINION it's no reason to think that those comments are bashing her. However, there ARE many comments in there that I find disrespectful or hateful towards Kwan and/or her fans.

ITA with SusanBeth; I think it's hard for certain Kwan fans to tell the difference between what's just an opinion and what is TRUE bashing. Naturally, the Kwan fan's bias does not allow him/her to be able to tell a clear difference between the two. I think this is where a lot of this misunderstanding comes from.

Enough about the Kwan fans for now. I haven't touched much on the other side- the haters. I know a lot of you are probably thinking that I side with them on this issue. To tell you the truth, I'm not really siding with them. Where my bias really is, is that I'm willing to give the nonfans who responded to the Kwanfans the benefit of the doubt. Maybe I'm wrong in doing this, but since I've been attacked by many Kwanfans, my heart just is more on the nonfans side right now, and therefore my sympathy for the Kwan fan sinks.

That said, there are a lot of Kwan haters out there, and many of the comments that these people make are quite hateful. I don't know where their hatred comes from. This would be key to understanding this side: Where does the hatred come from? Does it come from Kwan winning all the time? Does it come from her rabid Kwaniacs? Does it stem from racism? I hate to even attempt to ask that last question, but if we're to be thorough we have to consider ALL possibilities.

Maybe it's all of the above mixed in. But I will definitely say that I know two things that turn many people off of Kwan:

1) She is hyped so much during the Olympics, yet she loses to someone else. (I know someone who cheered for someone else just because they were tired of the Kwan hype.)

2) Her rabid fans. I need not explain this one.

I don't think people automatically "hate" somebody (unless they're racist). It takes time to build up such hatred. Ultimately I THINK it goes like this:

boredom --> frustration --> resentment --> angriness --> hatred

That's by all means non-scientific; it's just my BELIEF as to how it works. It can start at any stage and then progress. It doesn't necessarily have to start from the beginning.

Why am I doing all this? Once again, if and only if we understand both sides, we can then work towards a "central solution".

 

[SusanBeth]

There are probably only 3 things said on that entire list that aren't bashing. The rest focus on integrity, ethnicity and a few other things. I know the difference between bashing and constructive/nonconstructive criticism. The majority of those posts just don't reach that criticism criteria. Other than that, it's just one poster's opinion.

The fact is that no one can stand up for Kwan without getting branded a rabid fan. That isn't true. I've been accused of trying to hide my "uber Kwan fandom" when in actuality, I've been a fan of figure skating long before Kwan ever jumped on the ice. I don't think defending Kwan when her integrity is attacked by posters who don't like her skating is wrong. But I think there is a way to do it.

And who is to know what to believe about Nationals in Atlanta? Why care when it's all water under the proverbial bridge now?

Excuse me, but opinions do not have to be correct or nice to be legitimate opinions and everyone is entitled to their opinions. One factor- are there any facts that can reasonably support the view held? If so, it's a legitimate opinion in my book. Also, is it clearly phrased that the writer is expressing what he/she thinks or feels or "owns" his words and not presenting it as fact? That's another mark of a legitimate opinion.

I don't agree with 95% of the (IMO) garbage, but I will never tell anyone that he has to think and feel as I do in order to speak up.

 

[R.D.]

I will never tell anyone that he has to think and feel as I do in order to speakup.

I don't have to agree with it, but unless it's meant as a sign of disrespect to the recipient, it's perfectly fine by me. Even simply saying "I don't like her" or even "I hate her" is fine IN MY OPINION, because the person is describing how THEY feel towards her, and I don't think that's a bash. (Now, if they back it up with hateful comments, things change.)

There are lots of opinions out there that I don't agree with but I NEVER hold it against the person for having them. I will attack their point of view, but I will never attack THEM. That's the issue here with the Kwan fans/haters. Both sides are taking it PERSONAL.

 

[Piel]

RD thanks for that post. I think the problem is that rational people are trying to make sense of irrational responses. For me it comes down to what is the thought process behind the response? Trying to get this infortmation from someone has got me into more than a little hot water over the years.

I don't know where their hatred comes from. This would be key to understanding this side: Where does the hatred come from? Does it come from Kwan winning all the time?

Wouldn't a rational person ADMIRE someone for winning all of the time instead of hating them? This is at the very heart of my not understanding the antiKwans and even the nonfans. How can you not admire a winner especially if they have conducted themselves as well as Kwan has? If you can't admire that what does it take?

 

[Piel]

Why say hateful mean things unless you are a hateful mean person? When does opinion become a bash?

I got b****** at for saying Sasha can't keep a** off ice when it is a fact she at that time she had managed to fall in most of her programs . That is fact. To say that Kwan doesn't show up for events except Nationals and Worlds implies that she played hookie or just blew it off when in FACT she was either injured or was not scheduled to appear at all. So that is not fact it is plain misinformation for what reason? To make Kwan look bad. Sasha can learn to keep a** off ice but there is no way Kwan can control what people who don't like her say. Do you see the difference?

 

[R.D.]

Wouldn't a rational person ADMIRE someone for winning all of the time instead of hating them? This is at the very heart of my not understanding the antiKwans and even the nonfans. How can you not admire a winner especially if they have conducted themselves as well as Kwan has? If you can't admire that what does it take?

You have a good point. But I must call you out on your bias once again "Admire" IMO is kind of a strong word. It's too positive. I think "respect" might be a better word. Of course, this doesn't mean that some nonfans don't admire her.

Here's the difference, I believe, between the nonfan and the Kwan hater. (Everyone who's been calling me a Kwan hater LISTEN UP.)

KWAN WINNING ALL THE TIME

The nonfan will most likely respect (or admire) an athlete who is able to stay at the top of her game. However, I don't think it's unusual or wrong for certain non-fans (i.e. me ) to wish that someone else win every once in a while, just to see some diversity. Yes, it's admirable, but at the same time, you just kind of want to see someone else up there every once in a while. But here's the key difference; The nonfan does NOT hold this against Kwan. The nonfan feels indifferent to Kwan, so therefore either a) the nonfan won't care or b) the nonfan might want someone else to step up to the plate and win. Just depends on the nonfan.

The Kwan hater, on the other hand, is typically a fan of one of Kwan's rivals. He sees Kwan as an obstacle to his favorite winning gold, and with each Kwan win, frustration and resentment builds similar to the flow chart I drew above.

One MUST understand the difference between a nonfan and a hater. It's in the feelings. The nonfan is indifferent, the hater is angry. The nonfan offers opinions (positive or negative), the hater puts in digs and slights and bashes. The real problem I see is that many Kwan fans CAN'T TELL THE DIFFERENCE between what's an opinion and what's a dig/slight/bash. THAT's why I think people have been attacking us who don't look so favorably toward Kwan.

 

[R.D.]

I got b****** at for saying Sasha can't keep a** off ice when it is a fact she at that time she had managed to fall in most of her programs . That is fact. To say that Kwan doesn't show up for events except Nationals and Worlds implies that she played hookie or just blew it off when in FACT she was either injured or was not scheduled to appear at all. So that is not fact it is plain misinformation for what reason? To make Kwan look bad. Sasha can learn to keep a** off ice but there is no way Kwan can control what people who don't like her say. Do you see the difference?

Piel- your USE OF WORDS is key. Do you see what you're doing wrong here?

If someone were to say "Kwan can't get Cop for the *** of her" would you get mad? I believe you are using similar word usage to describe Cohen not being able to skate a clean program. Saying she can't keep her *** off the ice is a bit strong, don't you think? How about saying that "she is never able to skate a clean program"? Therefore you say the same thing but without the bias. No one can take offense to a comment worded that way. By using *** you automatically put Sasha fans and nonfans on the defensive. Now, I never use words like *** when talking about Kwan, yet I get jumped on. I will admit that my posting style, which is typically blunt, may send off the wrong impression at times, but I correct myself later on.

Now- to say that Kwan doesn't show up for events besides Nationals and Worlds is a half-truth. I also count the pro-ams she does, but a FACT is she hasn't done the GP in two years. You can't argue with that. You can put whatever insight you want into it, but you can't argue with facts- right?

 

[Piel]

She didn't do the GP and she said she wasn't doing the GP. She didn't agree to do it and then "not show up", which would be going back on an agreement (lying). See the difference? The a** off ice comment was supposed to be funny and IIRC was in the context of jokes about several skaters including Kwan. I love sarcasm especially when aimed at something like skating that I think is a bit too precious. In fact I think making it a little more like other sports and less high brow would do a lot to make it palatable to more people. Actually I predicted Kwan's difficulty with the COP during Rgirl's contest to name the moves when I came up with Kwan's "Who needs a triple triple when I have such a great spiral spiral".

 

[R.D.]

- I think even Tongue in Cheek comments set off certain Kwan fans' fuses. (This is not to say you're one of them, as I don't know that.)

She didn't agree to do it and then "not show up", which would be going back on an agreement (lying).

- Well, there was the whole "Skate America" thing last year. At Campbell's she IMPLIED that she was going (due to a reporter's question). She could have easily clarified that she WASN'T going to be there, but she didn't. Then we heard of the news later on, just before the event started. But that's all I'm going to say- it's been over and done with.

- I think it depends on how that sarcasm is used. For example I find certain sarcastic statements funny, and others just get on my nerves, I mean seriously. But those same comments that might get to me might crack someone else up. I say proceed with caution, unless (excuse my board dragging) you're at FSU. I think emoticons really help to convey whether a comment is made sarcastically (sp?) or not.

 

[Piel]

Am I missing something by not visiting FSU?

 

[SusanBeth]

Why say hateful mean things unless you are a hateful mean person? When does opinion become a bash?

I got b****** at for saying Sasha can't keep a** off ice when it is a fact she at that time she had managed to fall in most of her programs . That is fact. To say that Kwan doesn't show up for events except Nationals and Worlds implies that she played hookie or just blew it off when in FACT she was either injured or was not scheduled to appear at all. So that is not fact it is plain misinformation for what reason? To make Kwan look bad. Sasha can learn to keep a** off ice but there is no way Kwan can control what people who don't like her say. Do you see the difference?

Sasha can't keep her *** off the ice.

Two problems here. Fact- Yes, Sasha falls often. However, she lands plenty and has skated clean. So, she can keep her *** off the ice. This fails the fact test.

Also, you do not own this as your opinion. You present it as fact. It's a bash.

If you had said-

Sasha has had trouble keeping her *** off the ice in big competitions. (fact) I believe there is going to continue being serious *** to ice contact in her future. (owns opinion)

IMO, that's a legitimate opinion. It may be wrong. It may be vulgar, but it's not a bash.

 

[R.D.]

Am I missing something by not visiting FSU?

Not really...Nevermind.

SB- I agree with you as well. However, I would just not use the word *** at all because that is a strong word that puts fans on the defensive. It's usage of words like *** that start fights.

 

[tdnuva]

Wouldn't a rational person ADMIRE someone for winning all of the time instead of hating them?

There is a lot between admiration and hate. Why oh why is everything suddenly only black or white when it comes to Kwan (which is a big part of MY not undestanding the Kwaniacs). And concerning her victories - sometimes marks in a skating comp are just not the thing I would base ANY of my opinions on

How can you not admire a winner especially if they have conducted themselves as well as Kwan has? If you can't admire that what does it take?

For me it's artistry. Which includes creativity for me. Interpretation. I know that Kwaniacs say she has all that. Sorry I disagree. She is a good and usually consistant skater, but neither is she the best technically all the time nor is she that an artist to me. Which does NOT mean I hate her... I mean - why should I??? She is just one of several top lady skaters in the last decade where I have the feeling they did not fulfill their potential...... which is sad at the most.

But there is not ONE skater out there I would hate - basic problem, I don't KNOW them personally. I try to state my opinion about their skating and I would like this opinion to be as respected as everybody else's opinion about the skating of those skaters. If this skater is your idol (object of admiration) and my opinion is not 100% yours, why should this be a problem to you, to other fans or even the skater??? I am nothing special in the skating world. Just a fan. Of skating. With my personal opinion. And I am tired that the only incidents I get really bashed for my opinion are when I talk about either Kwan or Plushenko, but still in case it's Kwan I am talking about, the bashing was usually a lot more rabid..... (MY experience here, no urban legend, no exaggeration)

 

[Jimmy Hoffa]

Excuse me, but opinions do not have to be correct or nice to be legitimate opinions and everyone is entitled to their opinions.

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one -- and some give off an offensively odorous stench. Anyone is entitled to walk around with an asshole that smells like a cesspool, but they shouldn't get terribly upset when people hold their noses and say "YOU STINK! TAKE A BATH!"

Now excuse me while I go beat up a toddler who doesn't like Kwan.

 

[Piel]

Two problems here. Fact- Yes, Sasha falls often. However, she lands plenty and has skated clean. So, she can keep her *** off the ice. This fails the fact test.

But at the time not through an entire LP which was the context it was used in. Do you folks not have a sense of humor? FS is all together now.......... ENTERTAINMENT not a reason to live. It is supposed to be FUN. IMO costumes, music choices, and performance are all prime targets for satirical revue. Things the skater has no control over are not.

OK RD I checked out FSU. A$$ seems pretty tame compared to some of the stuff I read. Must admit I love their emoticons. My favorite emoticon was on a Temptations message board that had a little smily guy with a BS sign.

 

[SusanBeth]

Not really...Nevermind.

SB- I agree with you as well. However, I would just not use the word *** at all because that is a strong word that puts fans on the defensive. It's usage of words like *** that start fights.

I agree that the word is vulgar and it's better left off. I just think the offense it causes isn't from bashing.

Just a FYI for newcomers. In order to put someone on ignore-

Click on his screen name
Choose view public profile
There's an option for adding whoever to your Ignore list.
Click that and sweet peace is yours..

You will still see when someone posts, but you don't have to read it unless you click on the link provided.

 

[Piel]

Jimmy Hoffa you have been missed around here!


I think if someone is THAT offended by a little three or four letter word they need to grow up or stay away from sport. That's why a lot of folks don't see FS as sport or if they do as an elitist sport that they want no part of. More Douglas Dorsey and less Kate (who in the end decided to kick a little a$$,LOL) Of course my Mother would say "An adult doesn't need profanity to express herself". So I get your point RD and SB.

 

[R.D.]

Now excuse me while I go beat up a toddler who doesn't like Kwan.

 

[R.D.]

That's why a lot of folks don't see FS as sport or if they do as an elitist sport that they want no part of

I can't speak for everyone but the biggest reason I don't see FS as a sport is because it's judged. (However, the confusing thing is that sometimes you have to put it in the "sports" category if there's nowhere else for it to go. )

Of course people swear at each other all the time but it's neither appropriate nor desirable on a board like this. There are anything-goes boards out there for that purpose- rant, rave, swear all you want there. This board should be for civil discussion- it shouldn't be the place to "duke it out" so to speak. Save the harsh words for when you really need them...hehe.