Artist, Performer, or Jumper? Ladies Edition

[Ophelia]

Does that make her less of an artist? No. When I chose 'Artist' as a category, and I apologise as I should have written what it meant to me, it was meant to represent just what Sandpiper said. It's about the skater and the audience and their ability to listen to the music and therefore move themselves and their audience with their performance, their interpretation of the piece (an internal monologue I suppose) and a projection of their style- their signature on the ice. os168's definition of artistic is basically that Kim is uncompromising in what she did in her career. but like Sandpiper has pointed out- we don't know that for sure. How do we know that Kim compromised with David Wilson over what choreography she used? With Orser on how she should layout her jumps? Also, she skated to a rulebook written by the ISU! There already was a compromise from the beginning because Kim and all the skaters in competition had to skate by the bullet point. This argument would have more merit to it had Kim skated on her own, resisted the ISU game rules, choreographed her own programs, skated without a coach in competitions. I can see where he is coming from, but its a very narrow argument.

This.

 

[Ophelia]

So in turn, who in your opinion was an artist, but had no connection with the audience?

Kim? I would argue that Kim is artistic, but she doesn't necessarily have a strong connection with viewers. After any of her performances, there's always a sizeable subset of people who say that her performances leave them cold although they can acknowledge and applaud the complexity of her skating.

 

[MiRé]

So in turn, who in your opinion was an artist, but had no connection with the audience?

Out of my head So Youn Park comes into my mind. Her artistry is there, but it does not connect with the audience (IMO).

I just wanna mention that I think you completely ignored the last part on my post

I would say however, that most artists can be performers and performers can be artists as they do collide in certain points. But when you make them into separate categories, you'd need to have a clear definition for one of each.

 

[kiara_bleu]

Kim? I would argue that Kim is artistic, but she doesn't necessarily have a strong connection with viewers. After any of her performances, there's always a sizeable subset of people who say that her performances leave them cold although they can acknowledge and applaud the complexity of her skating.

This is true for ANY skater. You just can't please or connect with everyone. And not everyone who watches figure skating will take the time to go on social media to say how skater X did not connect with them but in the moment of watching might form that opinion.

 

[Sandpiper]

Kim? I would argue that Kim is artistic, but she doesn't necessarily have a strong connection with viewers. After any of her performances, there's always a sizeable subset of people who say that her performances leave them cold although they can acknowledge and applaud the complexity of her skating.

Disagree. Many people--myself included--do feel a connection with her performances. But obviously you can't win over everyone. I can't think of a single skater where the majority of people who calls them artistic also has no emotional connection with them. :scratch:

Out of my head So Youn Park comes into my mind. Her artistry is there, but it does not connect with the audience (IMO).

I just wanna mention that I think you completely ignored the last part on my post

To me, SoYoun seems like a budding artist who isn't quite there yet. She certainly has some connection with the audience, and as she improves her artistry--and improves her technical skills, which are tools to use in the performance--she will get there.

I can't answer the last part of your post. I'm not TheCzar, and I didn't start this thread. But if you want my view: I already stated in the men's thread that I personally wouldn't make a concrete distinction between the two; performance is simply one style of art (or, in the case of figure skating, perhaps artistry is one style of performance).

 

[kiara_bleu]

So I did a search and found this wonderful explanation about artistry in dance from this website: http://www.danceadvantage.net/what-is-artistry/

How does one display artistry in dance?

No two dancers are alike. The pieces of a great dancer’s puzzle fit well together because they have spent much time and energy shaping each piece. Certain skills or strengths will stand out above the others, meaning a dancer might be known for displaying prowess in a particular area but, generally, great dancers develop outstanding skill in all of the following areas:

Technical ability or virtuosity (impressive skills),
Musicality (ability to connect with the music, interpret it, phrase and add dynamics to movement in relationship to the music in a way that is unique or interesting),
Acting ability (a talent for displaying emotion, depth of character, or communicating intent/motivation)
Performance (being engaged in the movement, the expression, or emotion of the piece, check out these seven secrets of super performers)
Movement quality (making smooth transitions between movements/steps, attacking sharp/strong movements or exhibiting control with smooth or sustained movements, etc.)
Creativity (taking the choreography in and then making it your own, an expression of yourself).

What do you guys think?

 

[minze]

So I did a search and found this wonderful explanation about artistry in dance from this website: http://www.danceadvantage.net/what-is-artistry/

How does one display artistry in dance?

No two dancers are alike. The pieces of a great dancer’s puzzle fit well together because they have spent much time and energy shaping each piece. Certain skills or strengths will stand out above the others, meaning a dancer might be known for displaying prowess in a particular area but, generally, great dancers develop outstanding skill in all of the following areas:

Technical ability or virtuosity (impressive skills),
Musicality (ability to connect with the music, interpret it, phrase and add dynamics to movement in relationship to the music in a way that is unique or interesting),
Acting ability (a talent for displaying emotion, depth of character, or communicating intent/motivation)
Performance (being engaged in the movement, the expression, or emotion of the piece, check out these seven secrets of super performers)
Movement quality (making smooth transitions between movements/steps, attacking sharp/strong movements or exhibiting control with smooth or sustained movements, etc.)
Creativity (taking the choreography in and then making it your own, an expression of yourself).

What do you guys think?

You just described Mao Asada

 

[Ophelia]

This is true for ANY skater. You just can't please or connect with everyone. And not everyone who watches figure skating will take the time to go on social media to say how skater X did not connect with them but in the moment of watching might form that opinion.

I'm speaking to relatives...not absolutes...

@Sandpiper-you're only one data point...

I agree with the Soyiun Park example.

 

[Sandpiper]

I'm speaking to relatives...not absolutes...

@Sandpiper-you're only one data point...

I agree with the Soyiun Park example.

So you're saying the vast majority of people who find Yuna artistic also have no connection with her?

 

[MiRé]

To me, SoYoun seems like a budding artist who isn't quite there yet. She certainly has some connection with the audience, and as she improves her artistry--and improves her technical skills, which are tools to use in the performance--she will get there.

I guess we have a different view point then. No big deal. Either way, there is no answer on who's right and who's wrong as this is a subjective topic. I just don't understand why some people take this seriously and justify that their skater has to belong into certain category (not that I'm directing this to you or anything, just in general)

I can't answer the last part of your post. I'm not TheCzar, and I didn't start this thread. But if you want my view: I already stated in the men's thread that I personally wouldn't make a concrete distinction between the two; performance is simply one style of art (or, in the case of figure skating, perhaps artistry is one style of performance).

I, too, agree that there shouldn't be a distinction between the two, but since TheCzar did make 3 different categories, I was just answering based on that. And if I had to make a distinction, my opinion would be that an artist is someone who can interpret their music by using body language, and a performer would be someone who excel in delivering a program while engaging with the audience (and I believe you don't have to be artistic in order to deliver a program).

 

[iceberg]

So this is another thread where all the alternicks come alive.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

So this is another thread where all the alternicks come alive.

I hope so :yes: Art is something for the impassioned.

 

[RABID]

I don't see her as a performer. There is a coolness about her. She certainly doesn't relate to the audience like a Bauil or even Ashley Wagner. As I said, I accept that people see her as a great artist. I don't.

Funny you should say that. I remember being on the 2013 Worlds thread here and YuNa was next up and someone wrote, "Come on YuNa, we need a performance!" And what did she give us? A standing ovation before she was even done? But I understand, performance like art and maybe like jumps, is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[jenaj]

Funny you should say that. I remember being on the 2013 Worlds thread here and YuNa was next up and someone wrote, "Come on YuNa, we need a performance!" And what did she give us? A standing ovation before she was even done? But I understand, performance like art and maybe like jumps, is in the eye of the beholder.

Sometimes standing O's are given because a skater completes difficult elements and doesn't make mistakes. Sarah Hughes at SLC, for instance. It doesn't necessarily mean it is an exceptional "performance," like something a natural performer like Plushenko or Takahasi might do.

 

[iceberg]

This timeless program perfectly describes all categories, PERFORMER, JUMPER and ARTISTRY at its finest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1GfZW03lM4

 

[begin]

Top of my lists (by very small margins!):
Artist(?) - Chen Lu
Performer - Akiko Suzuki
Jumper - Midori Ito

Sometimes standing O's are given because a skater completes difficult elements and doesn't make mistakes. Sarah Hughes at SLC, for instance. It doesn't necessarily mean it is an exceptional "performance," like something a natural performer like Plushenko or Takahasi might do.

To be fair, she's gotten a lot of standing O's in her career.
Excitement doesn't necessarily define a "performer" for me. You don't have to be histrionic to be captivating. For a good two years, Yuna was the most charismatic contender in ladies skating and it certainly had something to do with how she could connect to the audience.

 

[minze]

This timeless program perfectly describes all categories, PERFORMER, JUMPER and ARTISTRY at its finest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1GfZW03lM4

:Mao is legend

 

[kiara_bleu]

For me this is the epitome of athleticism and artistry (as defined by the dancer I cited from an earlier post):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KV9cUupflo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noxpvATWzho

What makes it even more remarkable is that she was able to deliver this type of performance when the stakes were highest. In the most pressure-filled environment in a skater's career, she was able to skate with such command, confidence, and freedom.

 

[iceberg]

hahaha here they come!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[iceberg]

:Mao is legend

correct! that program is definitely the PRIMEST epitome of athleticism and artistry. #wearenotworthy