Base Values for Jumps | Golden Skate

Base Values for Jumps

LiamForeman

William/Uilyam
Medalist
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
Can someone kindly point me toward a chart that gives all the updated jump base values for this season? Single jumps through Quadruple jumps. I can only find 2018-2019 at the latest, and I know that lutz, flip and loop are all worth the same amount now. I've tried Google and have lost my patience. Thanks in advance.
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Can someone kindly point me toward a chart that gives all the updated jump base values for this season? Single jumps through Quadruple jumps. I can only find 2018-2019 at the latest, and I know that lutz, flip and loop are all worth the same amount now. I've tried Google and have lost my patience. Thanks in advance.
They aren't worth the same. They planned to do that but voted not to do that in the end (or voted to delay the changes I can't remember). Q is a thing though , but BVs not changed. (Same as before).
 

Pablo1

Rinkside
Joined
Sep 6, 2021
Country
France
Axel

1A= 1.10
2A = 3.30
3A = 8.00
4A = 12.50

Lutz

1Lz = 0.60
2Lz = 2.10
3Lz = 5.90
4Lz = 11.50

Flip

1F= 0.50
2F = 1.80
3F = 5.30
4F = 11.00

Loop

1Lo = 0.50
2L o= 1.70
3Lo = 4.90
4Lo = 10.50

Salchow

1S = 0.40
2S = 1.30
3S = 4.30
4S = 9.70

Toe Loop

1T = 0.40
2T = 1.30
3T = 4.20
4T = 9.50

Euler

1Eu = 0.50
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Geez, Yuzuru is working so hard on that jump worth just one more point than the 4Lz. Why do the 2A and 2Lz have a bigger difference of 1.2?
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Geez, Yuzuru is working so hard on that jump worth just one more point than the 4Lz. Why do the 2A and 2Lz have a bigger difference of 1.2?
Because nobody actually thought through the scoring for a quad axel, as nobody has landed it yet. As soon as somebody lands it they will probably re-vamp the scoring system and base values (Probably adding from 5T-5Lz as well)
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
Because nobody actually thought through the scoring for a quad axel, as nobody has landed it yet. As soon as somebody lands it they will probably re-vamp the scoring system and base values (Probably adding from 5T-5Lz as well)
? If that were the reason, they wouldn't have dropped it's BV... The closest thing I've seen to a real reason is that it's to prevent injuries due to the extreme difficulty, but they forgot that athletes do crazy stuff all the time whether it's rewarded or not.
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
? If that were the reason, they wouldn't have dropped it's BV... The closest thing I've seen to a real reason is that it's to prevent injuries due to the extreme difficulty, but they forgot that athletes do crazy stuff all the time whether it's rewarded or not.
TBH I just don't think they thought it through at all. It's possible they might not have wanted yolo attempts where they try to do a jump they aren't capable of - if it were 15points for example (which is probably in the region where it should be) you'd have a 12point base value for under rotations, and so going for a fallen 4A< would be worth instead of a triple lutz in case they happen to accidentally land it. (and this sort of yolo attempt is possible from certain skaters).
In reality I just think they went with linear scale (or close to that) without thinking through the difficulty increase.
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
TBH I just don't think they thought it through at all. It's possible they might not have wanted yolo attempts where they try to do a jump they aren't capable of - if it were 15points for example (which is probably in the region where it should be) you'd have a 12point base value for under rotations, and so going for a fallen 4A< would be worth instead of a triple lutz in case they happen to accidentally land it. (and this sort of yolo attempt is possible from certain skaters).
I think if they didn't want any of the things you're mentioning, they could have just banned it from competition (or assigned it no base value at all, like with quints). Then it wouldn't have mattered, only very motivated skaters would be doing it then (much like no one's really going out of their way to train quints of 4+4s, except maybe a few you hear whispers of, because they just don't matter with our current CoP). But as such, it's a confusing base value, for me.

In reality I just think they went with linear scale (or close to that) without thinking through the difficulty increase.
Well, they didn't really make it linear or close to it.

Going back to the topic at hand, or a slight diversion from it. I do wonder if they will in the future devalue 2A a bit. Make it go from 3.3 to 2.5 or something like that. It would be one way to encourage ladies training more 3As, and I'd like it more than seeing meh quality 3As getting +3s and +4s.
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
I think if they didn't want any of the things you're mentioning, they could have just banned it from competition (or assigned it no base value at all, like with quints). Then it wouldn't have mattered, only very motivated skaters would be doing it then (much like no one's really going out of their way to train quints of 4+4s, except maybe a few you hear whispers of, because they just don't matter with our current CoP). But as such, it's a confusing base value, for me.


Well, they didn't really make it linear or close to it.

Going back to the topic at hand, or a slight diversion from it. I do wonder if they will in the future devalue 2A a bit. Make it go from 3.3 to 2.5 or something like that. It would be one way to encourage ladies training more 3As, and I'd like it more than seeing meh quality 3As getting +3s and +4s.
Rqthee than actually just linear, I meant a linear type graph. 9.5, 9.7, 10.5, 11, 11.5, 12.5 has a PMCC of 0.9868, which indicates very strong linear calculation. If you set it to 15, the PMCC becomes 0.8882 which is still fair linear correlation but not as strong.

On 2A, I really wouldn't agree with the BV decrease purely because of its difficulty (I find it much harder than 3T and other triples, and know many people who agree). Of course would encourage more women to train it- but would rather see them do jumps they can do rather than risk a 3A which they struggle to land.

They will add quints if somebody can do 4A, but right now they see them as impossible (not sure if it is or not, but quad was once considered impossible).
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
On 2A, I really wouldn't agree with the BV decrease purely because of its difficulty (I find it much harder than 3T and other triples, and know many people who agree). Of course would encourage more women to train it- but would rather see them do jumps they can do rather than risk a 3A which they struggle to land.
I don't think finding a 3T harder than 2A is the same thing. I'm sure you know many who agree, but that's not a generalization, and not really taking certain factors into consideration. Just as one consideration, say 10 people all know perfect 2A technique, but those 10 people know flawed 3T technique making it easier than the 2A for them. Then it's not the same thing as 90 people knowing perfect 2A technique AND perfect 3T technique (that they find makes 3T harder than 2A for them).

But ignoring that, they don't have to really have to consider any of that. If they want more women landing 3A, they might well consider devaluing 2A. If they want more women landing quads, they might well consider devaluing all triples apart from 3A.

Personally, I think what they should do is devalue all jumps a bit. This will make it so that we don't have the huge discrepancies between PCS and TES, and I like the idea more than increasing the PCS multipliers.
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
I don't think finding a 3T harder than 2A is the same thing. I'm sure you know many who agree, but that's not a generalization, and not really taking certain factors into consideration. Just as one consideration, say 10 people all know perfect 2A technique, but those 10 people know flawed 3T technique making it easier than the 2A for them. Then it's not the same thing as 90 people knowing perfect 2A technique AND perfect 3T technique (that they find makes 3T harder than 2A for them).

But ignoring that, they don't have to really have to consider any of that. If they want more women landing 3A, they might well consider devaluing 2A. If they want more women landing quads, they might well consider devaluing all triples apart from 3A.

Personally, I think what they should do is devalue all jumps a bit. This will make it so that we don't have the huge discrepancies between PCS and TES, and I like the idea more than increasing the PCS multipliers.
I'm talking about 3 or 4 with good technique for both. With 2A you can't use momentum with the hips and throwing leg as much for a jump making it actually pretty difficult for some people. Regardless, it's difficulty vs a 2Lz is extremely hard (there's a reason some people get stuck on it for years and never land it after landing all doubles). Lots of people do land a triple before a double axel, probably more don't but that's because they train it first.
Doubles are pretty easy (relatively of course), and to then have 2A as first jump where you need the mechanics to be perfect to make the rotation. It's closer to triple just like 3A is closer to quad.
If you take the 180degree prerotation in triple salchow and toe its essentially same amount of rotation, only less momentum and harder to gain height in double axel. Of course most prerotate 0.25-0.5 in 2A, and that's essentially the way to speed up rotation by initiating it earlier - but for people who use a more forward takeoff (with "better" technique although that's fully debatable), it's perfectly reasonable that they struggle with it more than the "easy" triples.

The main issue (from ISU standpoint) with devaluing base value is people who watch TV who don't understand skating enjoy hearing about new highest scores in history and ISU want to be pushing this narrative that skating is constantly improving and this would benefit this. Tbh I don't care how they change it to balance the two as long as they do.
 
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