Brennan: Why U.S. figure skating has fallen

[cruzceleste]

I don´t thin the new one decade score system is to blame. By that time Brennan should take a pild and accept that the score sysem it is what it is.

Inconsistency from skaters in US is a key factor, so no one has taking the role as the golden boy/ girl that US tv and US sport federations love to pin. Look in gymnastic they got Shawn Johnson even now more popular than Nastia Liuken, then they got Gaby Douglas and then Simone Biles, and I don´t think gimnastic score system is any easier than skating one. But this girls keep winning that´s the key, not the score system. The one that wins are those that can read and take advantage in the system to win.

Skaters in US keep winning one, just to lose the next one. They can´t keep it up, and it looks like USFSF really is biased. Just look Gold score againts Nagasu. Why a person that lost a complete jumping pass has better score? Explain that to me.

There are perfectly constructed programs that manage the artistic and technical level without looking forced. And I didn´t see Brennan complaining when ice dance took turn that favorite skaters like Meryl and Charlie over other teams (and I love them so no bias here). The fact that Ice Dance shifted the power from Russia to America´s teams is because of the new score system so there, is US could do it un ID, is up to them to do it in the other disciplines.

 

[Tavi...]

Q Score = Qualifying Score

Thank you Sam, but qualifying score for what? It sounds to me like Skater Boy was talking about something marketing, media or PR related - where they rate athletes on how big and what kind of audience they draw.

 

[WeakAnkles]

Still, it is understandable that people long for Faulkner in a Twitter world.

Personally, I think the whole thing about "IJS is hard to understand; USFS and NBC should explain it better on TV" is sort of missing the point. The casual audience knows that you get points for doing certain tricks and then you get points for "artistic expression." Whoever gets the most points wins. What's hard to understand about that?

The real question, in my mind, about the IJS is whether or not it is responsible for producing paint-by-the-numbers programs that are unlovely and uninteresting. It does seem like the IJS encourages busy but ugly spins, busy footwork and transitions that contribute nothing of value to the program, etc.

Yes, the scoring system, at least on a basic level, is not that difficult to understand. Probably the one thing that will stymie most casual fans is the ways falls are treated (and that what really counts are the rotations, not the landings). I am actually a fan of COP, but the one thing you can say that has been utterly lost is the appreciation for elegant simplicity. The audience hasn't lost that appreciation--just check out their reaction whenever a skater or pair does a beautiful, simple move that truly captures the music--but the judges are now bound by the "more is better" ethos. Pity.

 

[Interspectator]

Yes, the scoring system, at least on a basic level, is not that difficult to understand. Probably the one thing that will stymie most casual fans is the ways falls are treated (and that what really counts are the rotations, not the landings). I am actually a fan of COP, but the one thing you can say that has been utterly lost is the appreciation for elegant simplicity. The audience hasn't lost that appreciation--just check out their reaction whenever a skater or pair does a beautiful, simple move that truly captures the music--but the judges are now bound by the "more is better" ethos. Pity.

Yes, I agree with this.
A nicely held spiral, or taking from this year, Yuzu's cross-rolls (used to have two sections but one was taken out) are very effective, and totally build the atmosphere of a program.
-But they aren't difficult and therefore don't contribute much to points.

 

[valerie123]

I will also say, if it has not been mentioned before, that lack of TV coverage is major. I am a major sports fan. This weekend Figure Skating could be perfectly positioned to have the US Championships on a little more. College Football is over, no one really cares about college basketball until March Madness, and only 4 pro football games on this weekend. No Red Zone TV.

NBC did a great job last fall of showing Grand Prix competitions. Why not more coverage of the Nationals? They have a sports channel (NBCSN), but what has it been showing every night this week? Some stupid car auction!

BTW, in my world "Q" rating is a recognizability rating. Don't know if I spelled that right, or if it's even a word, but it means if you mention someone's name, how quickly does the average Joe on the street recognize who that is.

 

[hamesc101]

We need to change the system. Which they need the budget and intelligence to change. They need someone like Marta Karolyi in charge to implement the kind system our national gymnastics team has. Monthly mandatory training camps during the season for the girls to prove their readiness and to test their nerve and competitive attitude. Competing with the other American skaters in front of judges as often as possible. Thats how you build consistency. They should also make coverage easier to find. Gymnastics is better at that also, having live streams for practicality every competition. Being an American figure skating fan is so frustrating right now and will be for the foreseeable future.

 

[noskates]

This is actually quite a compelling thread. I suspected it would be a mere Brennan trashfest, but no... it's thoughtful. Brennan has "reported" the same thing for ten years... and I can't quite say I disagree with her main facts. But Christine, while dismissing the sport that made you one-time-famous-ish... how about some solutions? Any ideas how to fix it?

I also have to call out the old-time, fussy "I'm not paying to watch skating on that damned cable or newfangled interweb... no siree" types. Well then, you're just not likely to see much skating these days. Why would anyone say icenetwork.com has made it harder for fans to see? That's just foolish. I've been an IN subscriber from day one... it has ranged in price (and I think still does) between $25 (for USFS members) and $49. As a new business, the beginning quality was rough... and it sometimes, though rarely, still is. (Hey, IN... are you reading? The feed from St. Paul has been CRAP!). But for the price of one modest meal (say 2 for $25, 4 for $49), you can see every skating event held in the US (including ALL of Regionals, Sectionals, Nats), and many other competitions throughout the world ( including basically all of every GP, as well as Europeans, 4CC, Worlds and much more). The major networks don't want it. How is that making it harder for fans?

There are more entertainment/sporting options today than ever before. This is part of the issue. IJS is also part of the issue. There's just no way a casual fan can understand the complexities... how can we build stars like Kwan but blah, blah blah. Do I have the answer? Obviously not. But when I read this thread, the concerns I see are shared concerns. I hope someone figures it out. Please.

Sorry - but unless you have a large-screend computer and the highest speed internet possible, watching skating on IceNetwork is migraine-inducing. If the quality was half-way good, if I didn't live in a rural town in the MotherLode, the price wouldn't bother me. It still appeals to a niche group of people where the "moon is in the 7th house and all the planets align!" Not an option for me. So it IS harder for fans and totally negates possibilities for the not-quite-yet-a-fan to become a fan. My neighbor likes figure skating but I don't imagine in a million years she would pay for IceNetwork. She WOULD watch it on television though. Don't quite accept your argument.

 

[ice coverage]

What is a q score ... ?

... It sounds to me like Skater Boy was talking about something marketing, media or PR related - where they rate athletes on how big and what kind of audience they draw.

... BTW, in my world "Q" rating is a recognizability rating. Don't know if I spelled that right, or if it's even a word, but it means if you mention someone's name, how quickly does the average Joe on the street recognize who that is.

99% sure that "Q scores" measure like-ability ... not just recognizability.

I'm not an expert, but my understanding from my world is that Q scores take into account not only how many people like someone, but also how many people dislike someone.

So to take a non-skating example, my guess is that Tom Cruise has a fairly high, but not super-high Q score. Very recognizable. Many people like him (for his movies, for example). But many people dislike him (for his promotion of Scientology, for example). All of these factors would affect his Q score.

I'm guessing that some people dislike Tom Cruise strongly enough that they would avoid buying Brand X of something if Cruise was a paid spokesperson for Brand X.
That's one of the reasons why the "dislike" component matters.

 

[louisa05]

This is actually quite a compelling thread. I suspected it would be a mere Brennan trashfest, but no... it's thoughtful. Brennan has "reported" the same thing for ten years... and I can't quite say I disagree with her main facts. But Christine, while dismissing the sport that made you one-time-famous-ish... how about some solutions? Any ideas how to fix it?

I also have to call out the old-time, fussy "I'm not paying to watch skating on that damned cable or newfangled interweb... no siree" types. Well then, you're just not likely to see much skating these days. Why would anyone say icenetwork.com has made it harder for fans to see? That's just foolish. I've been an IN subscriber from day one... it has ranged in price (and I think still does) between $25 (for USFS members) and $49. As a new business, the beginning quality was rough... and it sometimes, though rarely, still is. (Hey, IN... are you reading? The feed from St. Paul has been CRAP!). But for the price of one modest meal (say 2 for $25, 4 for $49), you can see every skating event held in the US (including ALL of Regionals, Sectionals, Nats), and many other competitions throughout the world ( including basically all of every GP, as well as Europeans, 4CC, Worlds and much more). The major networks don't want it. How is that making it harder for fans?

There are more entertainment/sporting options today than ever before. This is part of the issue. IJS is also part of the issue. There's just no way a casual fan can understand the complexities... how can we build stars like Kwan but blah, blah blah. Do I have the answer? Obviously not. But when I read this thread, the concerns I see are shared concerns. I hope someone figures it out. Please.

I am barely employed and I try to feed two adults on about $50-60 a week. I'm not spending our food money on Ice Network. And the lack of easily accessible broadcasts of skating mean that the sport cannot attract more casual fans. No one who does not have a serious interest in skating is going to get out their credit card to subscribe to an internet service in order to watch it and as long as most competitions are only available there (especially in real time), the sport will continue to struggle. And the live broadcast part is a huge issue. NBC's Grand Prix broadcasts each fall are shown late and only in part. Football would lose a lot of popularity if networks only broadcast the second half a day later. Granted, live broadcasts in the U.S. from China or wherever are not always feasible, but showing the whole competition in a more timely manner surely would help.

That said, I suspect that the audience for most sports is aging these days. I heard a discussion on a sports radio broadcast last fall about the difficulty in attracting millennials, including the students, to attend major college football games. When I listen to the kids I encounter as a teacher, very few of them are actively engaged in watching any sports or being fans of sports teams beyond the most local ones and that seems to be on a more casual basis. A family friend owns a sports memorabilia store and says his clientele is rapidly aging--and he specializes in the most popular sports--NCAA football, MLB, NFL, NBA. A niche sport like skating is bound to be adversely affected in a culture where younger generations are less interested in any spectator sports.

 

[Naya]

Americans still are good skaters, but for some reason they can't land their jumps nowadays and that's the main problem. I desagree that popularity and success are necessarily connected. U.S are doing great in volleyball and, if I'm not mistaken, there is no even a national volleyball league there.

 

[Jammers]

We need to change the system. Which they need the budget and intelligence to change. They need someone like Marta Karolyi in charge to implement the kind system our national gymnastics team has. Monthly mandatory training camps during the season for the girls to prove their readiness and to test their nerve and competitive attitude. Competing with the other American skaters in front of judges as often as possible. Thats how you build consistency. They should also make coverage easier to find. Gymnastics is better at that also, having live streams for practicality every competition. Being an American figure skating fan is so frustrating right now and will be for the foreseeable future.

Exactly. Marta may be cold hearted ***** but she has turned the US Ladies into the gymnastics version of the Russian Ladies in figure skating. She has no problem leaving a highly decorating gymnastic at home if someone else is performing better so those girls know they need to be at their best all the time.

 

[louisa05]

Americans still are good skaters, but for some reason they can't land their jumps nowadays and that's the main problem. I desagree that popularity and success are necessarily connected. U.S are doing great in volleyball and, if I'm not mistaken, there is no even a national volleyball league there.

Exactly. And international volleyball events do not do well selling tickets at home even when Team USA is featured. Two such events were held in my area recently. An attendance of around 6-7000 for the USA matches was considered amazing at the one I got to go to in July and attendance around 10,000 this month at a USA match in the area was a record. And mind you, Nebraska is a volleyball state--huge crowds watch high school tournaments here, and until they got a bigger venue, the University of Nebraska team regularly sold out their home matches. Omaha set an attendance records for the NCAA Volleyball Final Four every year that it has been held here. And three former Nebraska players are on the USA team that played here in these events--and attendance was still sparse. So, yes, success does not equal fan interest in all cases.

 

[brightphoton]

Americans still are good skaters, but for some reason they can't land their jumps nowadays and that's the main problem. I desagree that popularity and success are necessarily connected. U.S are doing great in volleyball and, if I'm not mistaken, there is no even a national volleyball league there.

Figure skating is unpopular in the United States because
1. the American skaters aren't winning anything
2. more importantly, they're not winning consistently. It's not enough to have a gold or silver once in 2006, and then again in 2013. You have to do it year after year.

Who wants to watch a sport when the representatives of your country are ecstatic about a top 5 at Worlds? We want gold! I'll admit, this is better than the embarrassment when Czisny was our national champ and got what, 20th place and was happy that she finished her program or something. Improvement.

Exactly. Marta may be cold hearted ***** but she has turned the US Ladies into the gymnastics version of the Russian Ladies in figure skating. She has no problem leaving a highly decorating gymnastic at home if someone else is performing better so those girls know they need to be at their best all the time.

3. There needs to be consistency in who wins. We can't have a revolving door of different girls who are awesome and win every gold medal one year, then turn 13 and go through puberty, and are never heard from again. I have to criticize Russia figure skating and our gymnastics for that. It seems like you have 2 years to win an medal, then you're replaced by another 12 year old girl.

 

[andyjo24]

Why has US skating fallen?

Simply because there has been no one to have the mental, technical, and artistic goods all at once. Btw, I want to put a big emphasis on MENTAL.:disapp:

 

[Mathman]

We need to change the system. Which they need the budget and intelligence to change. They need someone like Marta Karolyi in charge to implement the kind system our national gymnastics team has…

Welcome aboard, hamesc101. As we say around here, "Post often, post long!"

That said, I kind of hope that the U.S. figure skating establishment does not go that route. It is hard for me to go along with a system that appoints a dictator in charge of abusing children, just so we can win a shiny medal.

The USFSA serves the needs of tens of thousands of children and recreational skaters. This has to be their primary focus. If you go to the USFSA web site and click on "programs" at the top, you will see the fourteen program areas that the organization runs for its members. The list ranges from Basic Skating and Ice Theater to Colegiate Team Skating and Special Olympics/Therapeutic Skating.

I guess I am a bad fan, but to me all of this is way cooler than one elite individual winning a prize. YMMD of course.

 

[Tavi...]

Golden411 and Valeri123, thanks both for your responses!

I googled it, and came up with two things of interest: the Wikipedia definition and the company's website:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_Score

http://www.qscores.com/web/default.aspx

Not surprisingly you don't get the info without paying, so I guess Skater Boy is an industry profesdional.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Figure skating is unpopular in the United States because
1. the American skaters aren't winning anything
2. more importantly, they're not winning consistently. It's not enough to have a gold or silver once in 2006, and then again in 2013. You have to do it year after year.

I think it all boils down to this. I can't think of any sports that are popular in the US that American athletes don't do very well at. Even some sports with Americans at the top, such as women's tennis, aren't especially popular.

 

[Mathman]

I'll admit, this is better than the embarrassment when Czisny was our national champ and got what, 20th place and was happy that she finished her program or something.

The reason that Alissa was happy that she managed to finish her program was because she suddenly found herself unable to jump at all. She fell 7 times (short and long programs combined). Upon being examined by a doctor she learned that she had suffered a torn labrum in her hip.

The surgery was successful, but when she tried to ease herself back into competition in time for the next year's nationals she dislocated her hip at a small local competition. It was terrible. She went up for a jump, came down and collapsed in pain. They had to carry her off the ice, and that was the end of her career. Two U.S. Championships, gold at Skate America, Skate Canada and the Grand Prix Final, two U.S. collegiate championships, and a boatload of beautiful and memorable programs that touched our hearts.

And through all the ups and downs, Alissa always faced life with a toothpaste commercial smile. :yes:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/c8/3f/5e/c83f5e9f4958da918f6380e88c465dbd.jpg

 

[brightphoton]

That's nice and all, but it didn't add to the medal count at Worlds nor did it increase skating popularity.

 

[Mathman]

That's nice and all, but it didn't add to the medal count at Worlds nor did it increase skating popularity.

Never mind.