Brennan: Why U.S. figure skating has fallen

[Poodlepal]

I think ice dancing was more "fun" when people were dying on the ice--you never knew what would happen next. Like I said, the reason the sport is popular in Japan and Russia is because they have many potential medal winners right now.

Two questions: is it still popular in Korea, now that there is no star (I assume)coming up for the next Olympics? If the popularity has fallen dramatically without Yuna, there's the answer to one question (but again, I don't know if it has).

Question #2: Did the cost of figure skating rise above and beyond inflation (like college tuition, for example)? People always say the cost is preventing more people from skating, but it was always very expensive--read any biography, and you'll see many $ spent on coaches, travel and living at training sites. Yet the US always managed to find someone to be in medal contention every year until 2007. Was it more do-able for a middle class family back then, despite it all?

 

[semosk8tfan]

Meryl Davis's take on the controversy:
https://twitter.com/meryl_davis/status/691312888494039041

 

[Mathman]

Also I notice that people whining how IJS took the 'fun' out of things don't seem to bring it up when US teams do so well in ice dancing @_@

Sure IJS has its flaws but it also has its pros, and I personally think it's here to stay. So get on with the program.
Get the audience educated if they 'don't get it'.

I think the challenge is that casual TV viewers don't want to be educated. They want to be entertained. (First, they have to be watching the competition in the first place before we can either educate or entertain them. )

As for ice dance, unfortunately, despite the run of great champions and despite the popularity of dancing shows on TV, nobody besides us is interested in this sport at all, be it judged by 6.0 or IJS. So the theory about "we need consistent winners" doesn't seem to be the whole story either.

To tell the truth, the 6-hour (so far) coverage on major network TV was a great show. I hope it got decent ratings. The men's competition scheduled for this afternoon is up against the Patriots-Broncos game, which is a tough draw under either 6.0 or IJS.

 

[R.D.]

Those of us here on the east coast affected by the snow - did not get the Sat. afternoon coverage. Our local station did show the prime time event, however (and how crazy was that finish...although that's for another thread).


It seems we've been arguing this point for a decade now. After observing and reading all these threads over the years, I think this is the order (from biggest to smallest):

1) Expanding media and entertainment options over the past 15 years (this one has led to a drop in ratings for basically every sport except the NFL)
2) Culture shift (the prim, proper ice princess image was "in" 30 years ago, not so much now)
3) Lack of proper marketing/exposure
4) Diminished variety of skating styles (this one can be blamed on IJS)
5) Lack of a dominant and/or winning US female skater
6) Perception of fixed/rigged results


You may have wondered why I have "preception of fixed/rigged results" on the bottom. It's not because it's not a critical issue - but it's because people complain about it even in the popular sports (like the NFL) and that hasn't affected their viewership (at least not in the short term). It's a major issue in skating, but I think it's that in combination with OTHER issues that ultimately drove us down this path.

 

[MaxSwagg]

Most casual people find dance boring. My dad watching when I have it on television and he found dance boring. People want to see jumps...risky elements. Dance has risky elements, though they are much less clear. That's why dance isn't popular despite having the best dancers in the world.

With how IJS uses cumulative points now, "casual" viewers get the impression that our skaters aren't up to international standards when the finish 60+ points blow the winner and don't even make the podium. People want to see winners or at least someone who can consistently challenge for the top. As for the perception of rigged results, that is a point too. We were watching NHK and Terry said that it's the "10th time in the past 11 years that a Japanese man has won," it makes you go "hmm". Not that there was anything suspicious about those past results (not sure, i can remember every little detail of NHK per the past decade) but that's how it appears. Lol

Also, like most Olympic sports, there's not wide scale coverage outside of Olympic years. That's just how it is and how it will always be. Any sport that isn't baseball, football (American), or basketball will not get anywhere near that level of coverage. Plus, I think among a lot of people, subscription television service (satellite, cable, etc.) is losing popularity. Many people stream their options now, especially among those who are in their 30s and younger.

Great viewership in the 90s was due to controversy. Michelle was lucky because she was incredibly successful and had a lot of sponsorships = exposure. My coworker only remembers Michelle Kwan.

I don't think it's all bad. I think Nathan (I became a fan after his SP this championships when I wasn't much of one before) is perhaps the biggest young talent with the most potential we have, more so than any one in the past 5 years, which is why I think it is absolutely imperative that he gets the support he needs. Gracie, Polina, and Ashley showed that they can have some chance (if they only put it together when it counts) and I saw some other good girls too. I think US singles are moving in the right direction and are slowly coming back out of the trenches, though large-scale success probably won't be realized until 2022 quad at the earliest. We shall see though...

 

[silverfoxes]

I think ice dancing was more "fun" when people were dying on the ice--you never knew what would happen next. Like I said, the reason the sport is popular in Japan and Russia is because they have many potential medal winners right now.

Two questions: is it still popular in Korea, now that there is no star (I assume)coming up for the next Olympics? If the popularity has fallen dramatically without Yuna, there's the answer to one question (but again, I don't know if it has).

Yes, it seems like Koreans are crazy for skating, just look at the recent hype around Young You. I noticed when I watched the JGP that the Youtube viewing count would swell whenever a Korean skater was on. They're building a pretty strong program there with the next Olympics being in Pyeongchang, so I think it will stay popular for awhile.

Everyone keeps saying we need to win to make it more popular & I don't disagree, but first we need to change attitudes & have more skaters willing to push themselves, not just treat skating like a hobby. And coaches need to quit coddling them if they seriously want to be competitive athletes. I think Rafael is on the money when he says it has to start much earlier.

 

[TMC]

Meryl Davis's take on the controversy:
https://twitter.com/meryl_davis/status/691312888494039041

I love Meryl so much right now

 

[sabinfire]

Everyone keeps saying we need to win to make it more popular & I don't disagree, but first we need to change attitudes & have more skaters willing to push themselves, not just treat skating like a hobby. And coaches need to quit coddling them if they seriously want to be competitive athletes.

I'm taking bets on how many double axels we'll see in the men's event tonight.

 

[yuzushenko]

another reason is that many parents don't even know that skating is an option for their children.

when i was little, the most important thing was school. both parents worked and none of them even considered any extra-curricular activities. my parents are immigrants, idk they just didn't think about "ah my child must do a sport!" or anything like that. it just wasn't on their radar. living in california, ice skating isn't something that is thought of as a sport. it's more of a winter holiday thing when places might put up small rinks. they didn't know there were rinks that were year round. and even if i had an interest in it, i wouldn't have been able to google it or anything. i only started skating when i was 18 because i saw jason brown on TV and then followed the olympics and fell in love with it. i was able to search for rinks near my city, something i wouldnt have been able to do before. it was also extremely expensive. i doubt my parents would have been able to afford it even when i was younger, i had to pay for it myself when i started. but great competitive skaters don't start skating when they're 18, they start when they're around 3 years old. and a 3 year old doesn't know what it wants to do, it can't pay for things itself, it doesn't even know that ice skating is a sport. a lot of it comes from parents putting them in that environment.

perhaps skating is an unknown sport because it isn't portrayed as one either. you see classic movies like sandlot or just any other tv show or movie and if the kids happen to play a sport, it's usually soccer or baseball or football. ive never seen a show or movie where the child does figure skating. just recently in Inside Out, the main character played hockey. and in san fransisco, no doubt. but she got her start from skating on a pond, because she lived in the midwest or east coast. it's much more common and normal over there. but over here in the west it's just not really a thing. i dont know of any other movies or tv shows that show skating as a sport that any young kid can learn. (besides obvious skating movies like blades of fury and ice princess. blades of fury was definitely popular, but it showed them as olympic-level skaters and as adults)

but even if parents knew about skating, there's the problem of affordability. ice time, lessons, skates, maintenance, off-ice, costumes, training clothes. it's so expensive. perhaps parents don't think it's worth it spending so much on a sport. it's thought of as recreational. most of the people i see skate are from wealthy families. but they start when they're 12 or a bit older, and money can't buy you triple-triples. i see some parents and kids worrying more about buying the latest zuca bag and chloe noel and rockers skaters than actually practicing. coaches don't correct skaters with awful stroking. coaches and skating academies need to focus on the basic skills too. not just spins and jumps.


the judging is also complicated to explain. it takes like 30 minutes to explain to somebody everything and they still won't absorb the information. it's hard to understand for some reason. and dont even get me started with the judging. having to explain to somebody why a single, triple-double, and double jump program is placing 2nd above somebody who had more revolutions and was clean is difficult. i was watching with my dad the other day and he asked "why do they all skate the same routine?" all the programs look so similar.
i know that the judging system is the same in japan and russia but perhaps the scoring is at least more fair. it's irritating to see politics and unfair judging, it turns people off from the sport. it isn't something that should be glossed over lightly. it turns people away. why do men who fall score higher than somebody who was clean? quads, reputation, ect. my mom said reputation shouldn't have anything to do with it, and she's right. it's just difficult to explain. it's just too subjective. people who aren't skating fans easily realize how subjective and unfair the judging is, while us long-term fans have gotten so accustomed to it that we try to defend the judges' acts with "oh well he's the olympic champion and his PCS was higher" or "well he's the favorite". it's messed up. americans don't like unjust things.

 

[moriel]

Well, disagree about judging. "Each skater has to do a bunch of elements, each is awarded a score according to difficulty and quality of the execution. Then they also get a bunch of points for artistry, choreography and overall quality of their skating" is pretty much enough for a newcomer. Also explains well why a skater who falls can win over a clean skater. This actually makes way more sense than the previous system, where it was all up to "the judges like X better than Y".

For me, one of the big issues about USA skating is that both skaters and fans are not really adapted to COP. For example, so many people saying "he/she should have won because he/she skated clean", which is totally not true under COP: a clean skater with no triples will lose to Yuzuru with 5 falls, no matter how clean and perfect the first skater skates. But no, skating clean seems to be a supreme virtue, and a fall means the skater should not medal at all.
So the skaters doesnt do well. The fans get upset because skaters doesnt do well, and also because they don't like the results, which are calculated in a COP way.

 

[heyang]

I don't believe the new scoring system is solely to blame for the decline of skating in the US.

A lot of it is because American skaters are not consistently landing on the world podium, if at all.

US Nationals are competitive. There's a 3 way rivalry forming in Ladies within years of the next Olympics between Polina, Ashley and Gracie with some potentials on the rise, too. However, none of them are landing on the World podium - just missing. Right now, it'd be hard to hype them as true candidates for the top of the Olympic podium. Since Kwan retired, there's been no dominant US lady at Nationals nor at Worlds - hard to form a strong marketing campaign around that.

US Pairs has been abysmal for years - mostly due to pairs not staying together long enough. Understandable - the sport is expensive and without 'fast' results difficult to maintain the desire to compete without financial support.

Ice Dance is on the rise in the US. There's definitely more shown on US TV since Meryl and Charlie's win than before. However, still only during weekend afternoons. I don't think the Shib's free dance was aired during last night's competition. Instead, the 2nd hour broadcast the ladies 7th-12th - skaters who are unlikely to medal this year.
It would've been better for skating if NBC had shown the top 2 pairs long and top 2 free dances, instead. This would've shown a higher quality of skating vs what was shown.

I know that true skate fans would want to see it all, but the casual viewer would not be excited by the skaters shown during the 2nd hour of the broadcast and likely would've changed channels. This is where the media has 'failed' in promoting skating properly. It was fine to show 7-12 when the popularity of skating was at a high. Now, you need to show the best of the best. Since US has a strong showing in ice dance, I don't know why they didnt' at least show the Shib's free dance during the evening broadcast. Lost opportunity to promote ice dance and support a discipline that is on the rise in the US.

 

[Amei]

It's really such a shame. I'm finally taking Basic Skills lessons now as an adult for fun. They're super affordable at this level (how far I'll be able to afford it who knows), but I've always wondered how families like the Aarons or the Golds can do not just one but multiple children in the sport at higher levels. It's incredibly cost-prohibitive, especially in this economy. The government-run system like China or Russia has huge drawbacks in other ways, but I'm sure more talent gets found that way. Not sure if it's worth it overall, but still, the talent gets found.

According to Wikipedia both parents of the Aarons and Golds are in the medical profession - mother's are both nurses and fathers are doctors (pediatrician and anesthesiologist)

 

[Princessroja]

According to Wikipedia both parents of the Aarons and Golds are in the medical profession - mother's are both nurses and fathers are doctors (pediatrician and anesthesiologist)

Oh I'm sure, and I knew Dr. Aaron was, well, a doctor, but two or three kids times $50,000 a year... no matter how high your salary is, that's an ouch on the budget, especially in areas with high costs of living like California. Anyway, I don't want to turn this into speculating about them specifically, their finances deserve to be private, but still. It's a lot of money for families to scrape together. I guess though once (if they make it that high) the kids are high enough up that sponsors and fed funding help a little bit.

 

[theoreticalgirl]

It's infuriating that the same hackjob article Christine Brennan has written for the PAST TEN YEARS is still being published (and making this board devolve AGAIN into the tired IJS vs. 6.0 system debate.) It's not only that's she's recycling the same premise for these poorly-researched pieces, but she's actually reusing entire phrases and lines for her articles. She's self-plagiarizing, which is against every journalism code of ethics there is:

Speaking as a writer, repeating what you've written in the past isn't unethical, but you're expected to properly attribute it. Brennan's arguments are pretty one-note, but she gets away with it because there's basically no one else out there on the beat with the same longevity. Newsrooms–all of which I might add are shrinking, or disappearing entirely–are not invested in sustaining writers who want to track this particular beat.

 

[Poodlepal]

I've said this in other posts and I don't mean to repeat myself, ala Christine Brennan (who I don't always like, but I agree with some of her points here) but the real question is why has one female American skater after another gone up to 4th or 5th place then fizzled out only to be replaced by another 4th or 5th placer? Kimmie followed by Rachael followed by Mirai followed Alissa followed by Ashley followed by Gracie.

It would be interesting to see if interest would pick up if there ever was a "lady" that won a medal at the Olympics. I agree that the 90's will never be repeated, though, in terms of cheezy competitions on every station all the time, but maybe they could get back to the 80's or early 2000's with successful touring companies and the Worlds broadcast while they are still going on.

 

[jcoates]

Brennan is doing a live stream with TSL recapping Nationals right now. It'll be interesting if she responds to Meryl.

 

[FlattFan]

Meryl is the sad one. She doesn't seem to realize ice dance is the step child of figure skating. No one cares about you,Meryl.

 

[Mathman]

Meryl is the sad one. She doesn't seem to realize ice dance is the step child of figure skating. No one cares about you, Meryl.

Actually, I think more people might care abput Meryl than about watching ice dancing. She got quite a bit of public exposure for her gig on Dancing with the Stars, plus she is an Olympic gold medalist. This gives her a little more cachet than the average Joe.

I bet more people have heard of Meryl Davis than of Christine Brennan.

 

[Mathman]

For me, one of the big issues about USA skating is that both skaters and fans are not really adapted to COP. For example, so many people saying "he/she should have won because he/she skated clean", which is totally not true under COP.

I don't think this will ever change in the minds of viewers and spectators, no matter how patiently we feed them the CoP. "Look, Ma, I can skate. *splat*"

"No, child, that's not skating. You have to stay or your feet if you say you are skating."

 

[andromache]

If the success of a country's athletes is partially dependent upon how popular the sport is (thus attracting new potential talent) how in the heck has the US become an ice dancing powerhouse when it's generally considered to be the least popular discipline?

Not really arguing anything here, but it really just blows my mind that the US has so much depth of talent in ice dance in spite of the fact that it receives very little attention. Especially when considering ice dance is similar to pairs in that it takes 2 people. American pairs all split up all the time, but ice dancers stay together?