Going into 2002 Olympics, Irina was hardly a clear favorite. Irina's Grand Prix season hadn't been anywhere near as successful as her 2000-2001 GP: she lost Skate Canada to Sarah Hughes. Yes, Irina won the 2001-2002 GPF, but that was a very controversial win, as she skated extremely poorly, landing just 4 triples in the final FS to Kwan's 6 and Hughes's 7. Then Irina lost the European championship to Maria Butyrskaya.
Can Michelle Get Back On the Podium?
- Thread starter Joesitz (RIP)
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And we are very happy about that.nicole_l said:
Joe
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chuckm said:
Keep in mind at the GP final she did win the first two programs comfortably, with straight first place votes. Given it was unaminous it is hard to argue much with the result of those two programs. So the whole event was not controversial in Irina's favor, only the final program. It was a split of 4 1st place votes, and 3 3rd place votes, very unusual. What is interesting is in the short Butyrskaya edged out Kwan for 2nd on a 4-3 split. At first I did not think anything much of that, but later I noticed that it was the same split as the 4 1st-3 3rd split in the free for Slutskaya. Thus it was obviously a block of four there to promote Slutskaya and Butyrskaya, that came into play only those two occasions(Butyrskaya bomed the final two programs to drop to 4th anyway).
Also while Irina probably should have lost to GP final gold to Michelle, because of her final long, at Skate Canada Irina should have won the event. She was 4th in the short by doubling her combo, Michelle was 2nd in the short falling on hers and not even trying the second jump, a bigger error. Their positions really should have been reversed, there is no way Michelle deserved to bump Irina out of the top 3 in the short, it was as blatant a gift as Irina received in the final program at the GP final. Then Irina would have won the gold by deservedly winning the long.
Lastly while Irina was not the clear favorite in SLC she was no worse than second favorite to Michelle. She was far more favored than Hughes was.
She was the reigning three-time GP final Champion, and 2 time World silver medalist behind MIchelle, but both times having taken some 1st place votes and leading Michelle after the short.
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Mathman said:
Michelle and Irina dont need an Olympic Gold to gain fame and fortune in their own part of the world, and have tremendous show and performing opportunities as pros. However many decades from now their careers will still be diminished in eyes of skating affciandos if they dont win the Olympic Gold, rightly or wrongly.
You are right the teenagers are so happy when they win. However the skating World was then not so happy when the last three teenaged Olympic winners, all whom likely would have been around atleast another 4 years had they not won Oly Gold, abruptly left the amateur ranks, made little impact as pros, and dissapeared from skatings radar screen. Some of them are even less happy now, regretting they did not have a commited plan in place what to do after their Olympic Golds. The list of Olympic Gold medalists has become the "blip on the radar screen" list. When one looks at all the great skaters who are still around and hold a prominent role in their sport, the most recent Oly gold medalists are the 88 and 92 Oly Champs who are in semi-retirement in a way, although they are still around skating some.
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- Jun 21, 2003
Good points. Katarina Witt, the most successful Olympian lady since Sonia Henie, leveraged her achievements into international iconic status. Kristi remains one of the most beloved skaters of all time in the U.S., although maybe not on the international scene.slutskayafan21 said:
The ironic thing is that if either Irina or Michelle wins in Torino, they might retire soon after and we still won't have a reigning Olympic champion out there promoting the sport.
Mathman
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- Jul 26, 2003
Sarah Hughes didn't take the money and run: she competed in 2003 Nationals and Worlds. Only after that did she decide she needed a break, having lost competitive shape and training focus. Lipinski had hip problems that would have side-lined her partway through the next Olympic cycle had she remained eligible. Who could blame Baiul for wanting some ease and comfort in her life, particularly with puberty lurking around the corner?
The only recent Olympic champion to stay in the eligible ranks after winning was Witt. In her time, coming from then East Germany, competing in eligible ranks was the equivalent of competiting professionally, because the East German government gave her the apartment, the car, coaching, and the training facilities. When professional skating blossomed, she was able to take advantage of this. Until then, the options for Western skaters were: a. Continue to pay the huge costs of training for eligible competition b. Take the contract with Ice Capades, and in the figures era, only if you were NA and a good freeskater. Chen Lu, a two-time Olympic medallist skated for a living, even if it was through government subsidy.
While earlier champions and medallists stayed in the sport longer to work up the ranks, they also had fewer competitions and very little exposure. Hughes might have competed on the world stage, but how many times were her programs televised? Certainly more than Fleming's and Hamill's five or so years, where three LP's a year were televised. There were no Grand Prix events or short programs (in Fleming's time) and no cheezefests. Yamaguchi was around a while because school figures held her back, but again in an era where TV coverage wasn't as extensive as it was later in the 90's. (She got most of her exposure in professional events.) If anyone's change to professional skating could be questioned, it is Yamaguchi's, because the next Olympics were only two years away. But she did what every other US ice princess did after winning gold -- went professional (albeit in pro skating's "golden" decade.) No one knows if Kwan would have gone pro if she had won in 1998 instead of having one of the longest careers at the top of eligible skating.
Whether they would have won if the summer Olympic cycle had changed instead of the winter is relatively unlikely, but they were in the right physical place at the right time and put down the skates to win. To me, it's a double standard to say the young teenagers ran out on the sport, particularly when in the US, it is Kwan who still has the affection of many, many fans, who consider SH's and TL's wins as "best on that day," but Kwan the true, beloved champion, not SH and not TL.
The only recent Olympic champion to stay in the eligible ranks after winning was Witt. In her time, coming from then East Germany, competing in eligible ranks was the equivalent of competiting professionally, because the East German government gave her the apartment, the car, coaching, and the training facilities. When professional skating blossomed, she was able to take advantage of this. Until then, the options for Western skaters were: a. Continue to pay the huge costs of training for eligible competition b. Take the contract with Ice Capades, and in the figures era, only if you were NA and a good freeskater. Chen Lu, a two-time Olympic medallist skated for a living, even if it was through government subsidy.
While earlier champions and medallists stayed in the sport longer to work up the ranks, they also had fewer competitions and very little exposure. Hughes might have competed on the world stage, but how many times were her programs televised? Certainly more than Fleming's and Hamill's five or so years, where three LP's a year were televised. There were no Grand Prix events or short programs (in Fleming's time) and no cheezefests. Yamaguchi was around a while because school figures held her back, but again in an era where TV coverage wasn't as extensive as it was later in the 90's. (She got most of her exposure in professional events.) If anyone's change to professional skating could be questioned, it is Yamaguchi's, because the next Olympics were only two years away. But she did what every other US ice princess did after winning gold -- went professional (albeit in pro skating's "golden" decade.) No one knows if Kwan would have gone pro if she had won in 1998 instead of having one of the longest careers at the top of eligible skating.
Whether they would have won if the summer Olympic cycle had changed instead of the winter is relatively unlikely, but they were in the right physical place at the right time and put down the skates to win. To me, it's a double standard to say the young teenagers ran out on the sport, particularly when in the US, it is Kwan who still has the affection of many, many fans, who consider SH's and TL's wins as "best on that day," but Kwan the true, beloved champion, not SH and not TL.
Up until Oksana Baiul in 1994, all the lady OGM winners went on to compete in the Worlds following the Olympics. Oksana was the first to bow out immediately after winning, followed by Tara and Sarah. Oksana left because she was penniless and needed the money. We know now that Tara was too injured to keep doing those 3/3s. Although Sarah had said after winning her OGM that she would represent her country at Worlds, she changed her mind less than two weeks before Worlds, saying she was too tired from the round of parties and celebrations.
Sarah did come back to Worlds 2003, but clearly she was not the same skater she'd been at SLC. She had cut back her practices to less than 10 hours a week (down from 30 in the Olympic season) and said before each of her 6 competitions that year (Campbell's, Crest, Hallmark, Nationals, Worlds, spring cheesefest) that she was not prepared.
Sarah did come back to Worlds 2003, but clearly she was not the same skater she'd been at SLC. She had cut back her practices to less than 10 hours a week (down from 30 in the Olympic season) and said before each of her 6 competitions that year (Campbell's, Crest, Hallmark, Nationals, Worlds, spring cheesefest) that she was not prepared.
Oksana skipped worlds b/c she was injured. Remember that collision that happened before the freeskate with Tanja Szevchenko? She could only compete with pain injections.
Maybe she would have skipped worlds but I don't think that she did so b/c the lustre of her medal would fade.
Quite frankly I don't get why people rag on Tara, Oksana and Sarah for "taking the money and running". Every gold medalist (save for Katarina Witt and Sonia Henie) did exactly that. Why compete for four more years when you've already achieved your goal? Kristi Yamaguchi didn't get any flack for not competing in 1994. She didn't want to compete under all of that pressure (her words) and was happy with her gold medal. Some skaters like to compete and others don't. I also don't see Katarina's 1994 Olympic results tarnishing her 2 previous gold medals. In fact, her popularity increased b/c she had such a beautiful program in Lillehammer.
Maybe she would have skipped worlds but I don't think that she did so b/c the lustre of her medal would fade.
Quite frankly I don't get why people rag on Tara, Oksana and Sarah for "taking the money and running". Every gold medalist (save for Katarina Witt and Sonia Henie) did exactly that. Why compete for four more years when you've already achieved your goal? Kristi Yamaguchi didn't get any flack for not competing in 1994. She didn't want to compete under all of that pressure (her words) and was happy with her gold medal. Some skaters like to compete and others don't. I also don't see Katarina's 1994 Olympic results tarnishing her 2 previous gold medals. In fact, her popularity increased b/c she had such a beautiful program in Lillehammer.
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Until 1994, Oly eligible skaters could not make money. What money they earned was limited had to be kept in trust for training purposes. I don't remember if there was prize money even for the Grand Prix, and there certainly weren't as many competitions being aired. Thus, the reason why most Olympic medalists went pro after their medal wins - they needed to take advantage of the publicity to get the best contracts.
The whack heard round the world in 1994 changed this dramatically. There was major attention on ice skating. We were inundated by an overwhelming number of competitions being broadcast. Also, there wasn't the post-Olympic void because people who had competed in 1992 also competed in 1994. When most of the1994 medal winners went pro and the ISU could see more people going pro for the money, they had to offer more prize money and more competitions. This paved the way for the Oly eligibles to make money and stay in the field longer. Thus, MK and IS are still in the running.
The only problem I had with the Post Oly Worlds was the number of medalists who chose not compete at Worlds. Kristi Y was the last female OGM to go to Worlds in the same year . Now, we know that Oksana and Tara didn't go due to injuries - although it did seem as though they had time to party - so, I do think that a lack of training time had something to do with the decision to not attend Worlds. Sarah's only apparent reason for skipping Worlds in 2002 seems to be spending too much time revelling in the limelight and not enough training on the ice. Can't really blame her for it, but it didn't seem like a good move since she obviously didn't plan to retire or go pro - as evidenced by her return to Nationals and Worlds' in 2003.
BTW, who was the last male OGM to attend and/or win World's in the same year? I don't remember if Kulik or Yagudin went to World's - I think Boitano did to got World's in 88. In pairs, I know G&G and B&S and S&P didn't go to World's in 94 & 2002 - did K&D go in 1998? How about Dance?
The whack heard round the world in 1994 changed this dramatically. There was major attention on ice skating. We were inundated by an overwhelming number of competitions being broadcast. Also, there wasn't the post-Olympic void because people who had competed in 1992 also competed in 1994. When most of the1994 medal winners went pro and the ISU could see more people going pro for the money, they had to offer more prize money and more competitions. This paved the way for the Oly eligibles to make money and stay in the field longer. Thus, MK and IS are still in the running.
The only problem I had with the Post Oly Worlds was the number of medalists who chose not compete at Worlds. Kristi Y was the last female OGM to go to Worlds in the same year . Now, we know that Oksana and Tara didn't go due to injuries - although it did seem as though they had time to party - so, I do think that a lack of training time had something to do with the decision to not attend Worlds. Sarah's only apparent reason for skipping Worlds in 2002 seems to be spending too much time revelling in the limelight and not enough training on the ice. Can't really blame her for it, but it didn't seem like a good move since she obviously didn't plan to retire or go pro - as evidenced by her return to Nationals and Worlds' in 2003.
BTW, who was the last male OGM to attend and/or win World's in the same year? I don't remember if Kulik or Yagudin went to World's - I think Boitano did to got World's in 88. In pairs, I know G&G and B&S and S&P didn't go to World's in 94 & 2002 - did K&D go in 1998? How about Dance?
Kuilik didn't go to worlds but ALexei did and won in 2002. I've got a lot of respect for Alexei b/c he was able to do the interviews and deal with the hype and still maintain his competitive focus.
I don't know why Tara didn't go to Worlds. It was a really big disappointment b/c I felt she would have kicked Kwan's a$$ there as well. Probably her people told her that her medal would have gotten tarnished and made it seem like her OGM was a gift. Or perhaps she was hurting too bad but I never understood why she couldn't hold out for a few more weeks.
I don't know why Tara didn't go to Worlds. It was a really big disappointment b/c I felt she would have kicked Kwan's a$$ there as well. Probably her people told her that her medal would have gotten tarnished and made it seem like her OGM was a gift. Or perhaps she was hurting too bad but I never understood why she couldn't hold out for a few more weeks.
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- Jul 26, 2003
Well, we all know how much energy partying takes, compared to practicing for the World Championships.
Post-whack, being Olympic Champion meant that along with the money came the obligations, beginning with Nancy Kerrigan's ill-fated appearance on the Disney float. During the 80's, which were dominated by Witt, there was a proliferation of magazines and TV channels through cable, and an increasing obsession with celebrity. Part of dealing with sponsors and getting sponsors-- including USFS and USOC sponsors -- was making repeated appearances in the media. It was a different world in which Baiul, Lipinski, and Hughes entered after they won their Olympic medals.
Post-whack, being Olympic Champion meant that along with the money came the obligations, beginning with Nancy Kerrigan's ill-fated appearance on the Disney float. During the 80's, which were dominated by Witt, there was a proliferation of magazines and TV channels through cable, and an increasing obsession with celebrity. Part of dealing with sponsors and getting sponsors-- including USFS and USOC sponsors -- was making repeated appearances in the media. It was a different world in which Baiul, Lipinski, and Hughes entered after they won their Olympic medals.
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Baiul, Lipinski and Witt were also preSLC scandal. I can't speak for other countries but for America, it took its toll on interest in figure skating. Most avid fans of figure skating want to sweep that whole incident under the rug and move on with full faith and trust in the judging system, but the Sport has suffered.
Hughes rose above the mire and she did get many perks from her Oly win.
Joe
Hughes rose above the mire and she did get many perks from her Oly win.
Joe
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
slutskayafan21 said:
How long has been that COPs been in place?! Correct me if i'm wrong but by the time the 2001/2002 season rolled around the ladies had a mandatory combination of 3/2 or 2/3 or 3/3, they were no longer allowed to do 2/2 as the combo in the short. If Irina doubled her combo in the short and did 2/2 it was a failed element that should have a received a 0.4 mandatory deduction. Equally if Michelle fell on her triple lutz and didn't attempt the second jump then it is a failed element at receives the same 0.4 mandatory deduction therefore the error is identical for the technical mark so niether mistake is bigger than the other - they're just the same.
Ant
Joesitz said:
A lot of general interest in figure skating was waning even before the SLC scandal due to overexposure. You can show Kat Witt and Rosalyn Sumners and their diminished skating skills on TV just so many times before people get tired of seeing the same numbers over and over.
Avid skating fans do NOT want to sweep the incident under the rug. If you look at all the boards, there is much suspicion and distrust of the judges, especially now that they are anonymous. Tatiana Tarasova said in a recent interview that the judges have already figured out how to manipulate the system, and I think she is right on the money.
So I can't agree that SLC is to blame for the loss of interest in FS in the US. Pairs took the brunt of the blow, and Jamie and David were not US skaters. Kyoko and John were our best Pairs, and they were far from the podium. So really, no US skaters were associated with the scandal at all.
Sarah COULD have gotten many perks for her OGM, but the sad truth is Poppa Hughes firmly turned away lots of offers---that's why we are seeing Sarah skating in SOI with only 10% of her skating skills. This is the last year she can reap financial benefits from the OGM, so for her it was now or never.
When Sarah came back to eligible skating in the 2002-2003 season, it didn't help that her skating skills had eroded so much that she finished 6th at Worlds. It's sad that she is now skating in SOI as the OGM winner when her skills are below even the novice level. The general public expects an OGM winner to be THE best, and Sarah is far from that.
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- Jun 21, 2003
Hi Hockeyfan. These quotes are from post 62 on this thread. I have to admit that when I read analysis like this, it throws me into despair that figure skating judging will ever be anything more than whimsy.
So in other worlds, figure skating judging at the World championships is total garbage (I am not saying this sarcastically), and the judges are either fools or crooks:
Poykio skated better than Kwan, but the judges placed Kwan ahead of Poykio.
Volchkova skated better than Kwan, but the judges placed Kwan ahead of Volchkova.
Kwan skated better than Arakawa, but the judges placed Arakawa ahead of Kwan.
Kostner skated better than Kwan, but the judges placed Kwan ahead of Kostner.
Sebestyen skated better than Kwan, but the judges placed Kwan ahead of Sebestyen.
Arwakawa was vastly superior to Kwan, but four judges placed Kwan ahead of Arakawa.
Sebestyen, Poykio, Rochette and Suguri skated better than Ando or Kostner, but the judges placed Ando and Kostner ahead of Sebestyen, Poykio, Rochette and Suguri.
Well, you get the point. I have no reason to doubt any of the judges' qualifications. Yet over and over they gave the higher marks to the worse skates. Whether this is the result of protocol judging or what, the judges seem just to throw any old marks out there without regard for the skating. How, in your opinion, can we consider this a sport at all?
Mathman
So in other worlds, figure skating judging at the World championships is total garbage (I am not saying this sarcastically), and the judges are either fools or crooks:
Poykio skated better than Kwan, but the judges placed Kwan ahead of Poykio.
Volchkova skated better than Kwan, but the judges placed Kwan ahead of Volchkova.
Kwan skated better than Arakawa, but the judges placed Arakawa ahead of Kwan.
Kostner skated better than Kwan, but the judges placed Kwan ahead of Kostner.
Sebestyen skated better than Kwan, but the judges placed Kwan ahead of Sebestyen.
Arwakawa was vastly superior to Kwan, but four judges placed Kwan ahead of Arakawa.
Sebestyen, Poykio, Rochette and Suguri skated better than Ando or Kostner, but the judges placed Ando and Kostner ahead of Sebestyen, Poykio, Rochette and Suguri.
Well, you get the point. I have no reason to doubt any of the judges' qualifications. Yet over and over they gave the higher marks to the worse skates. Whether this is the result of protocol judging or what, the judges seem just to throw any old marks out there without regard for the skating. How, in your opinion, can we consider this a sport at all?
Mathman
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
That's why I put in the disclaimer at the beginning of the post that it was the judges that did the robbing, not the skaters, and that saying that Kwan "robbed" or "wuzrobbed" by another skater was a figure of speech.attyfan said:
Mathman said:
I Iabelled the fourth example incorrectly: it should have been
"(2004 LP) Kostner and Ando robbed a bunch of skaters in their LP (Sebestyen, Poykio, Rochette, Suguri among them) "
not "(2005 Qualis)," which was misleading.
The "robbing" falls into three major categories:
1. 6.0 judging issues:
a. Placing skaters based on the "wow" values of difficult opening jumps/combos, but ignoring the rest of the program (flawed jumps later, spins, spirals).
b. "Saving" scores for skaters coming up in later flights or later in the flight.
2. CoP technical issues:
a. Not taking required deductions, which mostly results in +GOE on elements that should not have received more than base.
3. Protocol judging in both systems, which in CoP is primarily in the components scores.
I think the judging did get better this year when ranking the top skaters, particularly if you compare the robbeds/wuzrobbeds from 2004 to 2005.
Were they throwing marks around without regards to skating? Not indiscriminately. I would say that it's protocol judging rearing it's ugly head again. Were they marking less carefully in the lowest ranks? I would say yes, particularly by undermarking excellent elements and, in particular, the transitions scores.
Do the judges need to learn/"learn" to mark component scores correctly? Yes. Without starting from scratch with a completely new set of judges, it would take superhuman strength not to fall back on old patterns, particularly under pressure (to give them the benefit of the doubt.) Are they heading in the right direction? Impossible to tell, as this is a base year, the first year in which CoP was used for more than a subset of competitions where the number of participants was limited. Looking at this year, it was no worse than it's been in the past, particularly for components judging.
One way in which is it, IMO, vastly superior to 6.0 is that on the technical side, everyone is playing by essentially the same rules: the elements are worth the same when performed by each skater. It's not up to every individual judge to weigh the relative difficulty*execution to come up with an overall assessment. We may not like that a 4T/3T is worth "only" 11.5% more than a 3A/3T, or "only" 23% more than a 3F/3T, or that spins are "only" worth a certain percentage of the overall program than jumps, or that X number of dance lifts are required and the system rewards upside-down-split lifts or forward entrance lasso lifts, etc. etc., etc. However, every skater is skating within the same system, not at the discretion of individual judges.
When/if the components scores are judged the same way, then FS will be closer to "non-judged" sports. However, that all judges will judge Kwan's 2A with the same eye as some first time participant from Bulgaria's 2A is no more likely than a basketball ref's calling fouls on Michael Jordan the same way he'd call fouls on Bench Warmer from Last Place Team.
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