"Clarifications" to the 2007 ISU rules changes

[gkelly]

Why then don't they answer the 1st question with a simple "yes"?

This is confusing. I *think* I understand the difference in the two situations.

Quote:
Q: In the layback spin, if a skater's stays in a traditional layback position for eight revolutions and moves arms and/or leg to increase speed, will they get the two features – holding position for eight revolutions and increase of speed) (Body position/core does NOT change)?

A: Increase of speed is not its own feature anymore but is now considered a difficult variation (camel, sit and layback). We will need to research this question further with the ISU before we can provide an answer.

The gray area here is that the skater is performing her 8 revolutions of layback hoping to receive that feature, and *during* those 8 revolutions she is moving her arms and/or leg to increase the speed. The question would be whether the arm and/or leg movements disqualify the 8 revolutions from counting as one position without change.

This is also related to the previous question about whether the skater's position has to stay absolutely still during the 8 revolutions or whether it will still count if there are small arm or head variations. Note that that question also requires further clarification.

Quote:
Q: If a skater increases the speed and holds the position with increased speed for eight revolutions, will they receive two features?
A: Yes

Here the 8 revolutions that count all take place *after* the increase in speed, with no further variations in the arm or leg positions mentioned, so the 8 revolutions without changes in position/variation feature is clearly fulfilled, as well as the increase in speed feature.

 

[Hsuhs]

Aha. Thanks, gkelly.

To me it's confusing b/c the rules (previously) specified that small arm/ head/ leg movements wouldn't count as (difficult) variations of a position. That such movements are in fact.... useless, from the CoP perspective. I thought this was also the reason for mentioning the 'Body position/core does NOT change' in the question.

 

[emma]

thanks for all the clarifications and explanations!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Speaking of the same spin executed first on the right leg and then on the left leg, I wonder if they are worth doing for scoring purposes?

Joe

 

[mskater93]

Because they are both different features that are being executed. Holding any position in a non-combination spin for at least 8 revolutions is now a feature for a level by itself and a "clear increasing of speed" in any Sit, Camel, or Layback position, after the whole position has been established, is now considered a difficult variation.

I love this change because now Yukari Nakano's BRILLIANT Camel Spins will be justly rewarded with a Level 4, instead of the Level 3 she normally gets. Lots of other spins in general will benefit from skaters who can HOLD a position for a good amount of time...we may be seeing more scratch spins!

Scratch spins (clear increase in speed) don't get that bump up

 

[GoldMedalist]

Scratch spins (clear increase in speed) don't get that bump up

Yes, I know, but they get credit for 8 revolutions (and, of course, a good scratch spin is going to get 8 revolutions!).

Unfortunately, the 8-revolutions rule doesn't count in a combination spin. I'm not sure how I feel about that? I can see arguments either way.

Aha. Thanks, gkelly.

To me it's confusing b/c the rules (previously) specified that small arm/ head/ leg movements wouldn't count as (difficult) variations of a position. That such movements are in fact.... useless, from the CoP perspective. I thought this was also the reason for mentioning the 'Body position/core does NOT change' in the question.

The actual quality of the positions attained are reflected in the GOE for the spin. Simple arm movements don't actually make the spin much harder (the Level) but if they look really good then it influences how highly the judges will grade.

 

[GoldMedalist]

Okay...*sigh*.

Nevermind about that Scratch Spin hope...I read it wrong. The 8-revolution rule only counts for a Layback, Camel, or Sit.

There's another thing which should be changed, then. A scratch spin that is held for 8 revolutions should count for something! Jeez!

Speaking of the same spin executed first on the right leg and then on the left leg, I wonder if they are worth doing for scoring purposes?

Joe

If it's not a combination spin, yes. Up until these new rules it was definitely worth it for combination spins too. There were a LOT of people (mainly male skaters) doing Change-of-Foot Combination spins that included Sit Spins on both feet with a change-of-edge for Sit Spins. I'm guessing that this type of spin becoming "too common" is why they changed the rule that in a change-of-foot combination spins, spinning on both edges only counts twice if it's on different feet AND different basic positions (and, honestly, those spins by themselves really were a bit repetitive to watch).

However, for change-of-foot combination spins, they also KILLED the rule that 4 changes of position gets you a level. Instead, they replaced it with all 3 basic positions on both feet getting you a level...which requires 5 changes of position to accomplish! I'm not sure why that was necessary. 4 changes of position isn't enough???

 

[gkelly]

However, for change-of-foot combination spins, they also KILLED the rule that 4 changes of position gets you a level. Instead, they replaced it with all 3 basic positions on both feet getting you a level...which requires 5 changes of position to accomplish! I'm not sure why that was necessary. 4 changes of position isn't enough???

Well, it's possible to do it with only 4 changes of position, although most sequences that would achieve that are difficult in themselves.

For example, forward camel/upright/sit - back sit/camel/upright.

 

[GoldMedalist]

I think changing foot is a change of position, even if you remain in the same type of spin. Not 100% sure on that but I thought I remembered reading it.

In any case, we are going to be seeing way more Level 3 Change-of-Foot Combination Spins this season! Either that or EVERYONE is going to attempt all 3 Basic Positions on each foot and Change-of-Foot Combination Spins are going to look even LESS varied and MORE convoluted.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I don't think you understood me, and I admit to not being clear most of the time.

Hope this is better and nothing to do with changing feet from one edge to another,because it can not be done in what I am thinking.

A forward outside camel spin on the left foot come out of it with free leg going intosame spin (forward outside camel spin) using the right foot.

The only skaters I know of in recent times who did these were Kwan and Klimpkin.

I presume their base scores for the two simple camel spins would be added together not taking into account the difficulty of doing these spins. Is that correct?
If so, then I concluded that it would not be worth doing because of the difficulty in not being rewarded for additional points.

Joe.

 

[gkelly]

A forward outside camel spin on the left foot come out of it with free leg going intosame spin (forward outside camel spin) using the right foot.

The only skaters I know of in recent times who did these were Kwan and Klimpkin.

And Gusmeroli, around the same time.

Buttle has done camel spins in both directions under the new system, but he intentionally didn't link them so they would count as one spin.

I presume their base scores for the two simple camel spins would be added together not taking into account the difficulty of doing these spins. Is that correct?
If so, then I concluded that it would not be worth doing because of the difficulty in not being rewarded for additional points.

It depends how they connect them and what else they do.

If the two spins *immediately* follow each other without extra steps in between and with the spinning centers fairly close together, then it will count as one spin that rotates in both directions.

That counts as one feature.

For all elements as of last year, it is not worth adding only one feature because that will not raise the level and thus the base mark. In order to achieve level 2, the spin must contain two features (three for level 3, four for level 4).

In this case, the simplest way to add another feature and reach level 2 would be to change edge on the camel spin in one of the directions.

Other options would be to add a difficult (e.g., catch-foot or layover) position to one, or to start with a backward camel, change feet once to the forward camel, and then change feet again to the forward camel in the other direction.

If the skater used all three of those options, then you'd have a level 4 change camel spin.

The two changes of foot would definitely not be allowed for the change camel in the men's short program. I'm wondering whether a change camel with one change of foot and also change of direction so that both are forward camel spins would satisfy the requirement.

 

[emma]

Okay...*sigh*.

Nevermind about that Scratch Spin hope...I read it wrong. The 8-revolution rule only counts for a Layback, Camel, or Sit.

There's another thing which should be changed, then. A scratch spin that is held for 8 revolutions should count for something! Jeez!

That's too bad - I wonder why the scratch spin isn't included here.

 

[GoldMedalist]

Spinning in both directions is hard...that should count as 2 features by itself, imo.

 

[mskater93]

That's too bad - I wonder why the scratch spin isn't included here.

Because attaining 8 revs in a scratch is easy AND because you are changing your core (pulling in) so the "clear" increase in speed better happen.

Also, the changes to sequences (no threes or mohawks between) is in relation to the change in combination jumps - a double three turn (with or without a slight touch down) now still counts as a combination (with a - GOE required)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Dick Button's camel jump to the other foot camel spins, a long time ago, were as speedy as some scratch spins today. I know the spins are in a newsreel but I don't know which one.

Exact same spinning in both directions is extremely difficult. In stage dancing it is a must to be able to perform such pirrouettes on a proscenium stage. I believe Curry who used proscenium ice stages insisted that the corps be able to spin in both directions. I guess in an Arena locale, it doesn't matter.

So I assum if the skater does one combo spin on one foot and does the same one on the other, the two scores will be added together without reference to the difficulty.

Joe

 

[emma]

Because attaining 8 revs in a scratch is easy AND because you are changing your core (pulling in) so the "clear" increase in speed better happen.

Oh - thanks. But a question - if 8 revs in a scratch spin is easy and necessarily your speed increases, why, over the years, do commentators single out soo few people/so few scratch spins as truly worthy? I remember Dick (i think) praising the roof off of Todd Eldridge, and I believe I have heard commentors praise Lambiel, and I when I think of women - i think maybe I have heard a few over the years, with the only one coming to mind now being sasha cohen. I guess I'm asking if a) these are just truly exceptional examples of anotherwise 'basic' skill (at the elite level, something everyone does fairly well); or b) just commentators picking a favorite at the moment, and c) if there is no reason to then distinguish (via levels or points) the exceptional ones from the regular ones (or is GOE enough recognition/points already).

 

[dlarry1]

Also makes you wonder of CoP is destroying the scratch spin to the point that younger skaters aren't learning it, or aren't learning it very well.

Give me a Dorothy Hamill scratch spin any day before all of this convoluted change of edge/position mess.

 

[mskater93]

Oh - thanks. But a question - if 8 revs in a scratch spin is easy and necessarily your speed increases, why, over the years, do commentators single out soo few people/so few scratch spins as truly worthy? I remember Dick (i think) praising the roof off of Todd Eldridge, and I believe I have heard commentors praise Lambiel, and I when I think of women - i think maybe I have heard a few over the years, with the only one coming to mind now being sasha cohen. I guess I'm asking if a) these are just truly exceptional examples of anotherwise 'basic' skill (at the elite level, something everyone does fairly well); or b) just commentators picking a favorite at the moment, and c) if there is no reason to then distinguish (via levels or points) the exceptional ones from the regular ones (or is GOE enough recognition/points already).

What I neglected to mention is that it is very difficult to center a scratch spin that's fast and that the position is good. That is why a few people had scratch spins that were particularly praised. Also, Sasha did hers with an interesting arm variation. GOE is where it should be addressed.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

What I neglected to mention is that it is very difficult to center a scratch spin that's fast and that the position is good. That is why a few people had scratch spins that were particularly praised. Also, Sasha did hers with an interesting arm variation. GOE is where it should be addressed.

I think what happens when someone, say Lambiel, does a scratch spin and he will execute it absolutely centered, it becomes ordinary, unfortunately. Yet, who else can do it like him?

When Dorothy Hamil does her Lspin to scratch spin or cross foot spin, however you want to call it. it will be considered 'old hat', yet do you see anyone doing this so-called easy spin? Points? nonsense. they can't get that back inside edge speed!

Joe

 

[carolinefan177]

Since the new rules say that a spin performed twice is now considered null, does that mean that Caroline can no longer do both the "pearl" and the layback in her programs? Her "pearl" spin is essentially a cross between an layback and a biellmann spin...