Does the USFSA too heavily favor "artistic" skaters?

[drivingmissdaisy]

After watching Skate America, I was a bit disappointed that Mariah got the nod over Bradie. We've seen this preference a lot over the years (Kristi over Tonya, Michelle over Tara, etc.) and it's often not consistent with how skaters are assessed in non-domestic competitions. I feel like in international events, judges do look for more a balance between the technical and artistic sides and aren't as willing to overlook mistakes from more artistic skaters like the USFSA sometimes does. It's frustrating to watch skilled athletes like Courtney Hicks (when she was skating well) have her strong attributes overlooked because she isn't as good presenting programs, while international judges were willing to mark her high enough to make GP podiums. Was she even offered Skate America after finishing 8th at Nationals, ahead of Gracie and Paige?

 

[Dogo]

Well, interesting question. I wouldn't put Kristi and Michelle in the same category as Mariah though. Mariah is becoming a very charming and charismatic skater, which makes her marketable in a US economy that only understands profits in figure skating correlated to how much of a "darling" you are. I would argue that this is a very old-school thing and it doesn't quite happen in Japan or Russia. In the US, we haven't come up with another way of making the sport trendy. Thus we have the same old marketing system that rewards "charisma" because it sells better. The result means that the US prefers to market strongly the domestic competitions (Nationals), and reward someone that they think will make more profit domestically.

Personal opinion; I love Mariah but Bradie should have won Gold at Skate America today. She did it "fair and square" with better SS, technical difficulty, spins, great transitions and much better musical interpretation.

 

[rain]

I think there's not enough emphasis put on artistry in figure skating in general these days, so I'm probably not the one to ask. I think the scoring system skews significantly (too far, IMO) towards technical difficulty (unfortunately defined these days by jumps alone). Artistic skaters without extreme technical difficulty are at a significant disadvantage when compared to skaters with big jumps, poor skating skills, and no artistic ability to speak of.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I think there's not enough emphasis put on artistry in figure skating in general these days, so I'm probably not the one to ask. I think the scoring system skews significantly (too far, IMO) towards technical difficulty (unfortunately defined these days by jumps alone). Artistic skaters without extreme technical difficulty are at a significant disadvantage when compared to skaters with big jumps, poor skating skills, and no artistic ability to speak of.

That's a fair point. Regardless of personal preferences I just feel like, given that the trend of the sport internationally has moved towards rewarding technical achievement, the USFSA is doing a disservice to athletes by prioritizing something for skaters to earn top spots at Nationals that isn't rewarded when they proceed to international events. For example, we've had several athletes the last several years who skate clean looking programs at Nationals, earn great marks, then skate similarly at non-domestic events and get slammed for errors like under-rotations that tend to be overlooked by USFSA favorites.

 

[frida80]

Yes. Absolutely. It starts at the very beginning. I’ve seen so many juveniles and intermediates over scored because they were more artistic st the expense of move technical skaters.

 

[rain]

That's a fair point. Regardless of personal preferences I just feel like, given that the trend of the sport internationally has moved towards rewarding technical achievement, the USFSA is doing a disservice to athletes by prioritizing something for skaters to earn top spots at Nationals that isn't rewarded when they proceed to international events. For example, we've had several athletes the last several years who skate clean looking programs at Nationals, earn great marks, then skate similarly at non-domestic events and get slammed for errors like under-rotations that tend to be overlooked by USFSA favorites.

There is a huge problem today even on the international stage with rewarding poor, unsustainable technique. Whether a skater's technical flaws like underrotations or wrong edges get overlooked, is, sadly, often a question of reputation, both of the skater themselves and of their coaching team/school. This can be true both domestically and internationally.

Overscoring skaters at domestic events has taken place since time immemorial, and I doubt any skater that competes internationally is surprised when they don't get the same marks in an international competition that they get at a domestic one.

 

[heartyxo]

I think in various cases artistry should be valued more, but Bradie clearly won today IMO. The gap in the SP shouldn't have been so wide and Mariah was held up a little in the FS too, she could've even been 3rd for me. I do like her, but this comp wasn't her best.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Overscoring skaters at domestic events has taken place since time immemorial, and I doubt any skater that competes internationally is surprised when they don't get the same marks in an international competition that they get at a domestic one.

It's not exactly overscoring that I see as the problem, if by that you mean everyone gets a few points bump. It's that the marks result in vastly different outcomes than what we'd see in other events. For example, if a Nationals panel is especially lenient on edge and rotation calls, it severely disadvantages skaters who do have better jump technique because those with flaws are getting identical marks.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I appreciate how you framed your question, if I understood correctly. Is there a focus within USFSA that favors domestic marketability over international accomplishments?

When US Ladies' dominated Olympic podiums, these were one and the same. As our young ladies have become less competitive in recent years (decades), perhaps USFSA has focused attention on qualities that are more easily recognized and marketable to a wider audience. Even Alysa Liu is celebrated sometimes more for her charm than her ultra-c.

I think the marketability is a huge factor. I suppose the USFSA wants to appease sponsors who want very feminine champions to be the face of their product, and I guess the organization has to do what's necessary to make that happen. However, that goal makes it harder to reward skaters who might be more competitive in international events, and I think it's especially true when you look past the podium finishers and those who rank around 4th - 10th at Nationals.

 

[kirauza343]

Well, interesting question. I wouldn't put Kristi and Michelle in the same category as Mariah though. Mariah is becoming a very charming and charismatic skater, which makes her marketable in a US economy that only understands profits in figure skating correlated to how much of a "darling" you are. I would argue that this is a very old-school thing and it doesn't quite happen in Japan or Russia. In the US, we haven't come up with another way of making the sport trendy. Thus we have the same old marketing system that rewards "charisma" because it sells better. The result means that the US prefers to market strongly the domestic competitions (Nationals), and reward someone that they think will make more profit domestically.

Personal opinion; I love Mariah but Bradie should have won Gold at Skate America today. She did it "fair and square" with better SS, technical difficulty, spins, great transitions and much better musical interpretation.

Agreed. And honestly, I feel like focusing on charisma and marketability is part of why the US ladies have struggled the last few years. By boosting ladies with lower tech that are seen as more artistic or marketable instead of the ladies that actually have the tech to be competitive they’re hurting their chances for international medals. The ladies with better and more consistent tech benefit more from a US ladies number 1 PCS boost than the reverse.

 

[rain]

It's not exactly overscoring that I see as the problem, if by that you mean everyone gets a few points bump. It's that the marks result in vastly different outcomes than what we'd see in other events. For example, if a Nationals panel is especially lenient on edge and rotation calls, it severely disadvantages skaters who do have better jump technique because those with flaws are getting identical marks.

I see where you're coming from, and without doing any exhaustive research, I'd have to say that this probably affects lower level skaters more than top level skaters who are being ranked internationally. I'm sure the federation is fully aware of who is scoring best for them on the international stage, and their domestic judges will judge accordingly.

But you're right when it comes to lesser known skaters, or those trying to break through. I definitely don't think, however, that it's true that they've been favouring American skaters who are more artistic over more technically proficient skaters. That they may not give outrageous PCS to big jumpers without much else would not be a negative in my book, though I can't really recall it happening much of late.

 

[NAOTMAA]

Bradie is clearly taking her ques from the Russians and Japanese when it comes to constructing her programs. She's focusing on using her whole body and is trying to really up level on her spins and footwork. Mariah on the other hand looks like a dated 6.0 era skater, all face and arms with nothing else.

The message at SA was clear. Shallow facial expressions and with nothing else rule the day, complex programs don't. Bradie clearly didn't get that memo. If the USFSA didn't look out of touch with the trends of international ladies before they definitely do now.

 

[Myr]

They might on a relatively even playing field but I think they would bow to technicality if they had more women who were executing harder elements in competition such as a 3A or Quads.

We see that they do prop up someone like Vincent Zhou. In the men's competition at SKAM today the US judges were quite clearly prioritizing the technical side of skating in the higher echelons of the rankings and are all too willing to overlook a few underrotations and shower technically strong skaters with program components.

 

[*~RussianBleux~*]

I feel like USFSA’s logic is Jason Brown is able to win international medals without quads by being a fantastic PCS skater so they think as long as we don’t have any ladies that can do Ultra-C our best bet is the same route. Mariah is probably a *slightly* better PCS skater than Bradie overall so if they push her domestically it will help her chances to compete internationally on this point.

The problem is that unlike Jason Brown, Mariah is not seen as a highly capable PCS skater internationally when compared to the top ladies in the world. She isn’t going to get the same scores and advantage over them as Jason gets over many of the other men. Nor do the top ladies make as many mistakes as the men even with technically difficult programs (Jason is able to capitalize when the other guys make enough mistakes which they often do). So all they’re doing is holding their best technical skater back when 1. Bradie is not viewed much differently (lesser) in terms of PCS than Mariah by the international judges and 2. TES often = PCS internationally.

 

[kirauza343]

They might on a relatively even playing field but I think they would bow to technicality if they had more women who were executing harder elements in competition such as a 3A or Quads.

We see that they do prop up someone like Vincent Zhou. In the men's competition at SKAM today the US judges were quite clearly prioritizing the technical side of skating in the higher echelons of the rankings and are all too willing to overlook a few underrotations and shower technically strong skaters with program components.

I think there’s definitely a difference in what they prioritize for men vs women. Ladies skaters need to be able to be seen as “America’s Sweetheart”. It’s like they want to recapture the style of their previous 6.0 champions without recognizing that ladies skating is evolving.

With men’s they prioritize tech and it’s clearly paid off. Even once Nathan retires there’s plenty of young guys with a ton of potential and bright futures ahead of them. For ladies we have...Alysa. Who has an obscene amount of pressure on her shoulders and who will be tossed aside the moment she has a subpar season or performance (ISPS anyone?).

 

[Thrashergurl]

Did we all watch the same competition? Bradie was sloppy and lost stamina during her program. Mariah certainly wasn’t impressive at all and the younger Shin showed them both up.

None of these girls are on Michelle Kwan’s level. Michelle consistently landed 7 triples, and if you check her actual record of landing triple:triple combos you’d be surprised to find that she landed many more than what some posters would like you to believe.

Bradie did not deserve the win today. Mariah wasn’t much better.

 

[karne]

The mess that has been USFS attitude towards artistry vs technical in the men's is just...a huge mess.

They went from "oh the men on the Sochi team need quads" to "no artists only and you can only be an artist if you skate in a very specific type of way!!!!" in literally one season, spent the next two seasons pushing the designated artists and holding down the designated jumpers, then as soon as Chen came along completely lost their minds and decided that he was the only valid answer and suddenly quads mattered again. Same with Zhou.

Jason at this point is almost an exception to the rule. He forces the USFS to count him. And even then he's held back in favour of their chosen ones. No-one with eyes and half a brain cell would have put Chen higher PCS than him in the FS at Nationals, and yet they did. Jason won the PCS battle in the short - but only by a tenth or two. It's ridiculous.

And don't even get me started on Chen and Zhou's PCS and what that was like when they burst onto the scene. Don't even get me started.

 

[TontoK]

Did we all watch the same competition? Bradie was sloppy and lost stamina during her program. Mariah certainly wasn’t impressive at all and the younger Shin showed them both up.

None of these girls are on Michelle Kwan’s level. Michelle consistently landed 7 triples, and if you check her actual record of landing triple:triple combos you’d be surprised to find that she landed many more than what some posters would like you to believe.

Bradie did not deserve the win today. Mariah wasn’t much better.

This is my exact take on the ladies event. Bradie looked out of gas about halfway through that program. Mariah had less content and the messy fall. If I'm remembering correctly, Bradie did win the LP, but not by enough to win the top spot.

It was one of those events where neither impressed me enough to get worked up over the result. The scores came out the way they did. It's fine. It would have been fine if the scores had gone the other way, too.

I will say that I loved Mariah's SP, though. It was very strong.

 

[MaHa75]

I dont blame them
If you have to choose only one program to watch then what kind of program you pick? I defenetly choose some charismatic, beautiful skater with some minor error in techniq instead of program with stiff body movement and without emotions. Beautiful and artistic skaters always have awarded.more!

 

[lappo]

The situation would be different had Alisa Liu been age eligible for SkAm this year; in that case and unless she bombed big time, they would have given their main support to her. They know that she is the only one at the moment that has the technical arsenal to keep up with her Russian, Japanese and Korean counterparts. Since she cannot be there, they seem to be supporting Bell as their main skater, who I think has as nice qualities as Tennell; as many have said before me, the point is that while they may see her as their PCS skater she is not seen as considerably better in that department than Tennell on the international field as of now. We will see if the support of the federation as number 1 senior skater will mean better PCS on the international stage in the near future.