Does the USFSA too heavily favor "artistic" skaters?

[FayD]

Not getting into who should have won, but both ladies had about the same PCs in both programs with less than a point in Mariah's favour, so it's not like the judges considered her light years ahead of Bradie in that department. I'm actually positively surprised they didn't give either of the two 70+ and went with Karen for highest PCs of the night.
The technical calls in the competition are more worth discussing and probably made a bigger difference.

 

[fzztsimmons]

I think it's important to note that Mariah was fourth in the free skate, and won on the basis of her SP lead - and even then her total score was only a point higher than Bradie. Their PCS was also roughly similar - so I don't really see this as a case of USFS heavily favouring the "artistic" skater, there really wasn't much between them when you look at the scores.

 

[Gabby30]

Bradie is clearly taking her ques from the Russians and Japanese when it comes to constructing her programs. She's focusing on using her whole body and is trying to really up level on her spins and footwork. Mariah on the other hand looks like a dated 6.0 era skater, all face and arms with nothing else.

The message at SA was clear. Shallow facial expressions and with nothing else rule the day, complex programs don't. Bradie clearly didn't get that memo. If the USFSA didn't look out of touch with the trends of international ladies before they definitely do now.

This depends on the choreographer, she isn't constructing her programs by herself, i think?

 

[lappo]

This depends on the choreographer, she isn't constructing her programs by herself, i think?

Only partly true, IMO. She is 24 years old not 14, you would think she also has a say in her programs and in what she wants to add or take off in order to better present herself and add to her PCS.

 

[SorrySkater]

Did we all watch the same competition? Bradie was sloppy and lost stamina during her program. Mariah certainly wasn’t impressive at all and the younger Shin showed them both up.

None of these girls are on Michelle Kwan’s level. Michelle consistently landed 7 triples, and if you check her actual record of landing triple:triple combos you’d be surprised to find that she landed many more than what some posters would like you to believe.

Bradie did not deserve the win today. Mariah wasn’t much better.

Okay, I think you and I watched the same competition. I believe Mariah came in 3rd or 4th in the free, but her lead from the short gave her the win over Bradie. The final score was pretty close. After the short, Mariah and Bradie had a good lead over the skaters in 3-5, who were all clustered together very closely. So, the long program scores played a huge role in determining the final placement.

I came away from this competition even more impressed by Audrey Shin. She is legit.

 

[chuckm]

I thought Mariah was vastly overscored in the SP---last season, her SB SP score was 70.25 at IDF.

Bradie, OTOH has often gotten higher scores than Mariah's top score. Her SB SP was 75.93 at 4CC.

USFS is pushing Mariah, based on her placement above Bradie at US Nationals 2020. Had SA had an international judging panel, Bradie would have won the competition.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

This depends on the choreographer, she isn't constructing her programs by herself, i think?

Bradie is choreographed by Benoit Richaud.

 

[Amei]

Bradie is choreographed by Benoit Richaud.

Was she choreographed in person or through virtual choreographing sessions?

 

[sworddance21]

This is my exact take on the ladies event. Bradie looked out of gas about halfway through that program. Mariah had less content and the messy fall. If I'm remembering correctly, Bradie did win the LP, but not by enough to win the top spot.

It was one of those events where neither impressed me enough to get worked up over the result. The scores came out the way they did. It's fine. It would have been fine if the scores had gone the other way, too.

I will say that I loved Mariah's SP, though. It was very strong.

Yes. Actually, I think Mariah finished the LP in 4th - so she won largely based on the strength of her SP.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Was she choreographed in person or were through virtual choreographing sessions.

From her history of working with him, in person. This year may have been another story.


ETA: Regardless if it was virtual choreo this year, Bradies choreography is miles better than Mariah's which she got in person. Mariah has empty programs to me this season.

 

[rabidline]

Was she choreographed in person or through virtual choreographing sessions?

For this season, virtual. There was a feature of Benoit in French TV just a few days ago, and they mentioned his work with Rika and Bradie for this season:

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

For this season, virtual. There was a feature of Benoit in French TV just a few days ago, and they mentioned his work with Rika and Bradie for this season:

Like I said, in the past yes in person. This year has been odd and has thrown everything off for everyone.

 

[Joekaz]

I think there's not enough emphasis put on artistry in figure skating in general these days, so I'm probably not the one to ask. I think the scoring system skews significantly (too far, IMO) towards technical difficulty (unfortunately defined these days by jumps alone). Artistic skaters without extreme technical difficulty are at a significant disadvantage when compared to skaters with big jumps, poor skating skills, and no artistic ability to speak of.

I agree. The reason they changed the scoring system from 6.0 system was because of crooked judging. But its even easier to manipulate the scoring now and hide it in a jumble of numbers. And the old presentation mark was replaced by PCS, but 2 of the components are more technical and the PCS is usually just a rubber stamp of TES. So artistry is really devalued, which is terrible. And since the TES is just as subjective as the scoring of the artistic aspects, the judging is just as flawed as before.

 

[rabidline]

Like I said, in the past yes in person. This year has been odd and has thrown everything off for everyone.

No worries, I just want to link the TV feature because it included the choreographing process. And it was very new so it came up quickly in my mind where to find it.

 

[theharleyquinn]

In my opinion, USFS often conflates artistry with marketability when they are certainly not the same thing. Mariah is marketable but I think commentary on her artistry has been overstated.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I feel like USFSA’s logic is Jason Brown is able to win international medals without quads by being a fantastic PCS skater so they think as long as we don’t have any ladies that can do Ultra-C our best bet is the same route. Mariah is probably a *slightly* better PCS skater than Bradie overall so if they push her domestically it will help her chances to compete internationally on this point.

With Jason, he's actually strong on the PCS criteria he scores high on. For the top US women, they'll get high PCS scores on things like TR even when that's lacking in the programs, as long as the skater and her choreography are engaging.

 

[Skatefan15]

I think the US fed does 100% and has for awhile now. It’s all about if skaters are marketable to them and I think that’s been the problem that has dragged US ladies behind. I agree that although Jason doesn’t have the quads, he has top level artistry (internationally) to back it up.

 

[rain]

I agree. The reason they changed the scoring system from 6.0 system was because of crooked judging. But its even easier to manipulate the scoring now and hide it in a jumble of numbers. And the old presentation mark was replaced by PCS, but 2 of the components are more technical and the PCS is usually just a rubber stamp of TES. So artistry is really devalued, which is terrible. And since the TES is just as subjective as the scoring of the artistic aspects, the judging is just as flawed as before.

I couldn't agree more. I find Transitions especially problematic in PCS, as I think it was probably intended to reward skaters that weren't just skating around setting up jumps, but rather had choreography in the in-betweens, but it's just become another box to check off with no regard for whether transitions are actually good, applicable to the music and choreography, well-performed, used to hide a deficiency in the jump (I'm looking at all you men with your spread eagle of out a jump)... the list goes on. Instead it's largely just made programs cluttered and ugly, crammed with perfunctory movement that means nothing.

I'm not saying that transitions aren't important. I'm just saying there needs to be better judging of them — a happy medium, if you will.

And of course, watch those PCS magically rise if you can land a bunch of hard jumps.

 

[Mathman]

I actually think that this question is sharper on the men's side than on the ladies'. We have gotten past the Dorothy Hamill era when the perky princess ruled the ice. But in men's we still have a back and forth between big jumpers versus soulful artists versus fun entertainers.

In ladies, I don't think that any one type is being pushed forward. I think it is more a case of, "go what what you got." For a while what we had was Ashley Wagner. Was she an artist? Was she a jumper? Alyssa Liu has a triple Axel and maybe a some-timey quad Lutz, if she can hang on to them. She is also a cute kid who maybe has marketing appeal for children. To be frank, the USFSA does not have the luxury of waiting for and developing one particular type of skater rather than another.

 

[Amei]

In my opinion, USFS often conflates artistry with marketability when they are certainly not the same thing. Mariah is marketable but I think commentary on her artistry has been overstated.

I'd really like to see what she would do with something that's a haunting type of serious music where she can't rely on her natural personality (based on what we've seen) of being bubbly and smiling.