Domestic scoring in Russia

[icewhite]

We all know jumping quads is super important in Russia. But now I am wondering if the split is getting even more noticable, or has it always been this way at least since the days of Plushenko?

I was talking about bias here a lot, but the judging in the Russian competitions and the comments both on international and Russian scoring make me think it's not so much personal interpretation as I thought, but that there is a serious rift regarding the interpretation of the scoring system.

It seems Russians (and those who listen to Russian commentary I suppose) want to give high PCS to people who jump tough content clean and if they are in addition entertaining the crowd or show some dedication to the program, they deserve high 9s. Things like deep edges, soft knees and extension, which are so important to Canadians and Japanese especially, are seen as disposable. Nice to have, but a gimmick. Speed yes, but speed in the elements trumps speed in gliding, and change of tempo, tempo according to the music etc. is hardly looked at. Full rotation on the other hand is a must, and should lead to higher PCS as well.

Another factor is storytelling, which I don't see in the bullet points, but which fans of Russian skating bring up as if it was. I can now only imagine that Russian commentary and coaches emphasize such points so that people see these factors the way they do.

I wonder how a judged sport can deal with such huge discrepancies. Right now the Russians have their own competitions, and it's not such a big deal - but should they be back, how can the sport find a way to judge to roughly the same standards?
This looks like more than some cultural nuances - it seems like two different judging planets.

 

[lariko]

It's not just quads. Ultra-c is the Russian term, so it includes 3A. Russians will always emphasize 2.5 rotations on 2A and 3.5 rotations on 3A. In most cases, they will say, Axel, three-and-half rotations, not triple Axel.

Extensions and flexibility are a big item in Russian commentary as well, since it emphasizes long limbs/long waistlines Russians often have and like/prefer. 'Stretched'/'well-stretched' is a big compliment from Russian commentary, because obviously tons of work goes into some of their insane bilmans and split positions.

Speed and coverage are easier for Russians than edges and knees, huge, showy jumps are easier than pretty landings, because they have different body builds than the Japanese (stop the presses!).

Skating to bursting the aorta (na razmakh) is something that they value too, skating with feeling, 'cause value passionate nature. They do comment on commitment to theme and story and engagement with audience ('lifted the audience to their feet' is a valued compliment).

Fans buy into the story, so the commentators would also note posters that picture a skater in a specific persona or have wordplay on the program's theme.

So, yes, they judge based on what they can do well, giving the highest points to those who are ahead of others on the things they do well. it's like that everywhere. Japanese can do knees and edges well, so they judge on knees and edges, and there whoever can skate on butter and land on the springiest knee, is the champion. They don't care so much for keeping people awake, they prefer hypnotic skating. Maybe if Japanese didn’t feel the pressure to skate to Western music all the time, but skated to Japanese music that roots in their popular culture and resonates with the audience on the familiar, well-loved from childhood story level, they would be more likely to appreciate that aspect more.

I think it was always like that, and would always be like that. In all things creative, there is no One True Way. Anyone who manages to find their audience wins.

Russians will never be back, so we are basically in the 'pick one' position now. Or, if people, don't mind both, they can do both, but have to play mental gymnastics.

 

[eppen]

Thanks for these observations!

I watched the last leg of the Russian GP today and was just commenting to a friend that the a lot of the men have the theoretical jump content to make it in the international scene. And at the same time, only very few of them would be likely to get to the absolute top in major competitions. They have the jumps, but not the quality and/or the consistency. Plus the international men do have an extra edge over the Russians with better choreos and performance skills. Not to mention usually better skating skills, the oft talked about soft knees as well as better spins.

There has always been a certain level of high drama involved in Soviet/Russian skating styles, but for my tastes they have also quite often gone to such an overdrive that it looks unintentionally funny. But I am left wondering about the storytelling in particular, because it is as absent from Russian programs as it is from anyone elses. And I don't think it is a case of knowing the stories or not understanding the language, because Russians tend to use as much Western music and warhorses as anyone else. (Plus I have a habit to try to find out if I am left wondering about sth.)

In women, the ultra-cs seem to be mostly the property of junior and novice skaters. I have not followed 3As, but the women who would qualify for seniors in international competitions and have attempted quads this season are Gorbacheva and Valieva - and neither has had great success. I do think Russian women would continue to do well in the international senior scene even without the ultra-cs - they do have the 3+3s in the 2nd part etc. The arguable lack of refinement of movement and not so great skating skills has not been a huge problem even for the international skaters.

 

[DancingCactus]

The Japanese men are the better jumpers. Soft knees and proper takeoff are part of what makes a jump great. Just getting the appropriate amount of turns and then hanging on to the landing somehow does not a good jump make. So I think the Russian judging is plain wrong in this respect.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

In women, the ultra-cs seem to be mostly the property of junior and novice skaters. I have not followed 3As, but the women who would qualify for seniors in international competitions and have attempted quads this season are Gorbacheva and Valieva - and neither has had great success. I do think Russian women would continue to do well in the international senior scene even without the ultra-cs - they do have the 3+3s in the 2nd part etc. The arguable lack of refinement of movement and not so great skating skills has not been a huge problem even for the international skaters.

Careful, Gorbacheva isn't senior-eligible internationally yet, but Adeliia Petrosian and Sofia Muravieva are.

Adeliia has had the most success out of any Senior Russian women with her Ultra-Cs, though they're definitely far from consistent, while Mura has yet to land her 3A again (though she would probably have the most success out of the current crop of Senior Russian women completely without Ultra-Cs, because she's very well-rounded).

 

[eppen]

Woops! Sorry! Actually had noted the birth months incorrectly for both. Yes, but that really does not change the overall numbers, just the name changes. Internationally not much better, though.

Careful, Gorbacheva isn't senior-eligible internationally yet, but Adeliia Petrosian and Sofia Muravieva are.

Adeliia has had the most success out of any Senior Russian women with her Ultra-Cs, though they're definitely far from consistent, while Mura has yet to land her 3A again (though she would probably have the most success out of the current crop of Senior Russian women completely without Ultra-Cs, because she's very well-rounded).

 

[lariko]

In women, the ultra-cs seem to be mostly the property of junior and novice skaters. I have not followed 3As, but the women who would qualify for seniors in international competitions and have attempted quads this season are Gorbacheva and Valieva - and neither has had great success. I do think Russian women would continue to do well in the international senior scene even without the ultra-cs - they do have the 3+3s in the 2nd part etc. The arguable lack of refinement of movement and not so great skating skills has not been a huge problem even for the international skaters.

Petrosyan and Murav'eva as well.

 

[lariko]

There has always been a certain level of high drama involved in Soviet/Russian skating styles, but for my tastes they have also quite often gone to such an overdrive that it looks unintentionally funny. But I am left wondering about the storytelling in particular, because it is as absent from Russian programs as it is from anyone elses. And I don't think it is a case of knowing the stories or not understanding the language, because Russians tend to use as much Western music and warhorses as anyone else. (Plus I have a habit to try to find out if I am left wondering about sth.)

I am not sure how it's absent, because so many Russian programs follow personalities and even texts (Vetlugin, Lukin and Popov were doing it last year already, Aliev picked one this year). Mozalev went as far as having short and free this year that are part 1 and part 2 of the same story. Ugozhaev is really great at that as well. Murav'eva is one hell of a storyteller, so are Frolova and Gorbacheva. In pairs, B/K always act out everything and Ch/Ya or B/P are getting there too.

Yes, they use a lot of Western music, but some of it has been ingrained into national consciousness over the years and this specific season, more and more skates are done to either Russian music or stuff like Italian pop from the 80s or French music that has a special place in Russian pop culture and mind. There was also one exceptionally good choice of music in Jr. dance that used Northern Indiginous (to Russia) fusion music. Basically, Russians still have far too many Queen and Cathedrals, but they are pursuing domestic market and tastes a big time.

You can call big upper body moves funny all you want, I love it. It's designed to send the mood and energy across the whole stadium and it works fairly well when people come with the open mind, not prejudiced.

I am not going to comment on any kind of prospects internationally, because there is zero indications it will ever happen, but I prefer how they do things and judge in Russia, save for one big exception.

 

[icewhite]

The way I see it we simply don't know how the development of "ultra c-s" in women's will go. We will see.

But it's not really relevant to the point I was trying to make, or better, the discussion that I'm interested in: How does a judged sport deal with such different opinions on how bullet points and scoring system are to be interpreted and applied, when there are not just the usual different opinions, but a serious rift? Do you guys agree that there is such a rift? And can it be melted again, or will it only lead to extreme controversy?

Russia has skaters that I consider beautiful - at the moment I see Aliev, Lutfullin, Vetlugin and Mozalev among the men. I don't really follow Russian women and can't say much about them, but it seems to me that 18year old Frolova has some real qualities, too.
But today Vladislav Dikidzhi got high 8s for a program that was clean, but so empty and so extremely on the jump side, if I was a judge, I would probably have given him 5s in PCS... honestly. Trusova showed more in that regard. The thing is not just the judging itself though, but that the Russian public seems fine with that. With Trusova there were "at least" discussions even among Russian fans and she was the "quad queen" with extreme content. I am only getting glimpses into the Russian commentary and fan scene, but it seems everyone is totally fine with 8s for this kind of program which is clean jumpswise, but not even absolutely outstanding in terms of jump content. Samarin! gets good 9s.
Now, that's domestic overscoring and "look at our high scores, our skaters are so amazing". But at the same time, like I said, they DO have other skaters that I would rate highly in terms of PCS, like, really high. But although they have their fans they do not seem very appreciated overall. A path like Brown's or Aymoz' seems impossible for them, despite them having a (partly much) higher jump content than these skaters! So even if they have a quad or two or three in addition to their great skating or interesting programs (I think Mozalev's program is one of the best nationally and internationally this season) there seems to be no chance for them to have these qualities appreciated in the way that I would think they deserve. Because what the Russian public (and judges) seem to look for is something else.

 

[icewhite]

I think this can also become a bigger issue if the Russians are not in international competitions under a Russian flag. We already see the discussions with Gubanova and Shaidorov. It's not unrealistic that we will see Samodelkina at worlds under a Kazakh flag soon and if that happens she will likely fight for a medal. I think there will be huge controversies in the future, bigger and more "existential" than the ones about the Eteri girls or such because already I feel people, including me, are totally talking past each other.

 

[eppen]

A lot of FS programs are supposedly telling stories, but usually the story is based on having music with a storyline of some sort and then costumes. The choreo itself rarely has anything in it that would not be just very basic FS movement vocabulary and would really have something to do with the ideas behind the choreo. That is not a specific Russian problem, but a FS problem in general IMO.

The Americans have also had a tendency to overscore their skaters at nationals which might have then caused some suprises to the general public when their top skaters are really not making as good internationally. Though, there is also perhaps a slight tendency of American skaters somehow skating extremely well at their Nationals. But the American public has had to overcome that, maybe the Russians are also able to do it?

 

[lariko]

So even if they have a quad or two or three in addition to their great skating or interesting programs (I think Mozalev's program is one of the best nationally and internationally this season) there seems to be no chance for them to have these qualities appreciated in the way that I would think they deserve. Because what the Russian public (and judges) seem to look for is something else.

Vetlugin and Aliev, and previously Kolyada got perfectly decent scores with modest jumping content, without the beloved by all the Russians senior quads. If we all didn't have to reach for heart medication every time Mozalev steps on ice, the judges would be more than happy to put him on the podium and he still manages to stay in top six despite all the wrong sort of the explosive power he has. The guys like Popov, Dikidzi and Zonov all have to use senior quads (just like Mozalev before them, and, I assume, Kolyada) to make a the Nationals...landing 4Lz is definitely a way to go. Which is how Mozalev was left without 3F, but eh...

The ultra-c content atm seems to be used by juniors to stand out, which tbh, makes sense. So you need to watch juniors to see 4Lz+2A+2A in Rus Men. In women, it's actually more relaxed than before the ban.

Frolova, Gorbacheva, Sinitzina, Kulikova and Murav'eva are senior women that imo are worth watching. Or the ones I love to bits. And, well, Russian junior women are an epic song as far as I am concerned.

 

[lariko]

A lot of FS programs are supposedly telling stories, but usually the story is based on having music with a storyline of some sort and then costumes. The choreo itself rarely has anything in it that would not be just very basic FS movement vocabulary and would really have something to do with the ideas behind the choreo. That is not a specific Russian problem, but a FS problem in general IMO.

The Americans have also had a tendency to overscore their skaters at nationals which might have then caused some suprises to the general public when their top skaters are really not making as good internationally. Though, there is also perhaps a slight tendency of American skaters somehow skating extremely well at their Nationals. But the American public has had to overcome that, maybe the Russians are also able to do it?

Last time i heard, American public has no objections to their women scoring medals again. It's the success of their men that seem to paradoxaly vex them. For Russians, it doesn't seem to matter if they take it with washing or by scrubbing... to be honest, in all likelihood they will adapt, but again, I don't understand the concern for the international performance of the Russians. I mean, Americans or Koreans make sense. Russian men will continue to find sustenance in pairs and dance.

 

[el henry]

Last time i heard, American public has no objections to their women scoring medals again. It's the success of their men that seem to paradoxaly vex them. For Russians, it doesn't seem to matter if they take it with washing or by scrubbing... to be honest, in all likelihood they will adapt, but again, I don't understand the concern for the international performance of the Russians. I mean, Americans or Koreans make sense. Russian men will continue to find sustenance in pairs and dance.

Proof, please? What are you referring to?

The "American public", what little of them know skating, love Nathan Chen. Olympic Gold, baby, gold. If Ilia wins Olympic gold, they will love him too. No one in the American public, sadly, can tell you about NHK or what it is, or could pick Ava Marie or Lindsay out of a lineup. But if they win Olympic gold, they will.

 

[lariko]

I think this can also become a bigger issue if the Russians are not in international competitions under a Russian flag. We already see the discussions with Gubanova and Shaidorov. It's not unrealistic that we will see Samodelkina at worlds under a Kazakh flag soon and if that happens she will likely fight for a medal. I think there will be huge controversies in the future, bigger and more "existential" than the ones about the Eteri girls or such because already I feel people, including me, are totally talking past each other.

Firstly, Shaidorov's nationality is Kazakh, born in Kazakhstan, representing Kazakhstan, with Kazakhs in his background, judging by his last name. He skates for his nation, and did so well before Russians were banned. Maybe in Canada they hated him, but in China he was on the podium with Fa and Uno, which would be something that will help if he can stay consistent with 4Lz.

Anyone who switched after the Event or will (?) are judged by international panels, and will take that into account. Or not. There won't be many of them regardless, because releases are not easy to come by. I mean, if anything, Daughter's scores are mind-boggling high, but it looks like Smolkin might be actually gaining from training. If Nazarychev returns to competition, I would love to see how he would score, but it looks like when they partner with a non-Russian, they score okay. I dunno though if he will.

So, again, not a problem.

 

[lariko]

Proof, please? What are you referring to?

The "American public", what little of them know skating, love Nathan Chen. Olympic Gold, baby, gold. If Ilia wins Olympic gold, they will love him too. No one in the American public, sadly, can tell you about NHK or what it is, or could pick Ava Marie or Lindsay out of a lineup. But if they win Olympic gold, they will.

Wish there was more of them on this forum. All the Ameicans here want to talk about is Brown, and how Chen is overscored. Now it's Malinin. And I won't even go into Zhou.

 

[el henry]

I apologize for being lured into an OT discussion, I do have a question:

Do the Russian judges value flexibility in men? Or is that only women? I have never watched an internal Russian competition (including all the internal competitions they have been holding last year and this), so I do not know their scoring.

 

[lariko]

I apologize for being lured into an OT discussion, I do have a question:

Do the Russian judges value flexibility in men? Or is that only women? I have never watched an internal Russian competition (including all the internal competitions they have been holding last year and this), so I do not know their scoring.

Yes. If a man is flexible and can do Bielman's they will note it. Junior men often demonstrate high flexibility. Not Grassl' level obviously, but someone like Voronov (Vadim, not Sergei, heh) would get praise for it occasionally, so would be someone like Popov.

 

[lariko]

Lol, Kolyada just now said about Samsonov (i am watching Moscow stage): "he is the only one who still do dohnut and Bileman variations on his spins..." I think he meant in this stage, in seniors.

 

[FlossieH]

I think this can also become a bigger issue if the Russians are not in international competitions under a Russian flag. We already see the discussions with Gubanova and Shaidorov. It's not unrealistic that we will see Samodelkina at worlds under a Kazakh flag soon and if that happens she will likely fight for a medal. I think there will be huge controversies in the future, bigger and more "existential" than the ones about the Eteri girls or such because already I feel people, including me, are totally talking past each other.

I am confused at what Shaidorov has to do with this? He was born in Kazakhstan and has never represented Russia? Yes, he trains in Socchi with Uramov. He moved there to train, just like ice dancers from other countries move to Montreal to train at IAM (Papadakis and Cziseron, Hubbell and Donohue, Fear and Gibson, Smart and Dieck) or some pairs skaters move to Bergamo to train at the centre there (Hocke and Kunkel), or singles skaters move to Obersdorf (Carolina Kostner, Lea Serna, Lukaz Britschgi).

Gubanova probably isn't the best example for this discussion either, as aspects of her skating are more 'European' in style than 'Russian'. She also switched to Georgia well before Russia were banned.