Domestic scoring in Russia

[Mathematician]

There are judges who give penaltiess. People don't know the rules are protest if a judge gives the penalty to their favourite team. But if a player if a hockey player of the opposing team makes a legal tackle, fans protest loudly. They have no idea about the rules when tackle is legal or not, but always your favourite is threatened wrong way.

Disagree. Unfortunately it is abundantly clear that A-list sports have rather... suspicious judging and reffing. For insance in NBA, NFL or Soccer (not that I have interest in such sports anymore), refs incessantly call baseless fouls to kill momentum in favour of the more popular team, or harm a star player, etc... Drama is created in pre-season or over decades in regards to sports dynasties, and one of a variety of expected outcomes adhering to the premptive drama will always be the outcome. Its invarible. This becomes especially evident during Soccer World Cup, Superbowl or NBA finals.

Its extremelt rampant in combat sport (In which I formerly held a particular interest, as spectator and participant). The results are just outright predetermined and based off politics or marketing. Judges will gift a deceitfully close split decision to a clear loser shamelessly and incessantly (a known fact amongst fight fans - not conspiracy theorizing). I'm 100% sure some fights are simply choreographed as well and I had an insanely high record of predicting "upsets" based on politics and the ostensive drama certain athletes shared. Hence I havent had any interest in such sport since a while either (and also because I began to dislike fighting and pretentiously masculine things in general).

And we all know what happened in Vancouver with FS... NOBODY can seriously think Adelina naturally won over Yuna.

Point is, usually the fans are correct. Refs dont "mess up" by accident - they give blatantly unfair calls on purpose and this is a well observed fact by any current or former sports fan. What I dont understand is how people maintain interest or particularly emotional investement in such things when they know the truth. Whether players are in on some total script is irrelevant; there is at minimum a rough template for every A-list sport season which makes it unwatchable.

And I never had particular identification with teams or athletes, I'm not bitter about anything. In fact I have made money using this to my advantage. I am giving an unbias perspective.

This is why I only watch FS. I dont care who wins (within reason), its still a spectacle. If a fight or soccer match is scripted, it becomes an irrelevant viewing experience. But if a FS event is scripted it intrinsically changes very little (to me). I can still enjoy skill, athleticism and artistry at peak form. It is just important not to idolize or form unhealthy emotional connections to the athletes to where you actually care for them or their success personally (an issue for my self).

But it won't make me very happy either, because overall I want to see fair sportive competitions not a show contest like those singing contests on tv or a beauty pageant... And especially a sport like figure skating needs good judging to be respected and not become a farce.

Good luck, I dont think any main stream sport exists unakin to those cheap entertainment shows.

Figure skating remains relatively legit (legit enough...) save for Olympics. International and domestic judging is bias but not inovercomably so. Though some of the Russian PCS scoring was disgusting this season, thats for sure. Valieva getting 38+ after multiple major choreographical mistakes was a shock even by Russian standards.

But what I will likely never get are the levels. I have to review everything a thousand times in slow motion, especially step sequences...

I agree. Spins can be judged rather easily with practice - counting rotations is simple (at least with women, maybe men are much faster) and distinguishing a jumping change foot entry or distinct positions is a novice thing. However, StSq are REALLY hard to judge in the moment. You need natural memory, element discernment, and ability for intellectual multitask and all of this is usable then only by very sophisticated ice-knowledge on every distinct turn, edge, foot change and corresponding rule. The choreographic elements in themselves are simple but in addition to the former it becomes a grand task. I struggle with it too, a lot, but its motivating... I can't wait until I master StSq analysis.

 

[gkelly]

Not even the technical specialists call the levels all on their own in real time.

They have three people on the panel so they can divide the workload.

The hardest part is looking for the number of difficult turns with the additional requirements to the 11 for level 4.

The other features are easier, but you first need to recognize the different kinds of turns to be able to call the clusters.

 

[el henry]

Football (NFL) fans protest judging ALL the time. They review and complain about obvious, clear, visible to the naked eye penalty that wasn't called. That would have given the game to the other side (Or to my my side. ).

They make skating fans look like pikers when it comes to "wuzrobbing" and "The refs are biased".

Yet the NFL is the most valuable league worldwide (yes, more than soccer) https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2023/09/08/the-worlds-50-most-valuable-sports-teams-2023/?sh=10427fbc2b44#:~:text=The NFL remains the most valuable sports league in the,same number as last year.
It is raking in the cash.

From my point of view, "The refs are incompetent" has nothing to do with how seriously skating, or football, is taken.

Blaming any mistakenly obvious ruling (whatever that is) on the refs being biased is IMO foolish, however. There are a gazillion other more simple reasons for a football ref or a skating judge to miss an obvious call. I am a simple person, I choose the simple solution. (The NFL has some hilarious ads making fun of the "scripted" conspiracy theorists, which show how silly that mantra is.)

 

[Mathman]

I think that the attitude of football players and coaches is that the referees are "part of the playing field." There are many calls in a football game. Some go in our favor, some go against us. The winner is the team that can take advantage of its opportunities and dig in to overcome setbacks.

 

[el henry]

I think that the attitude of football players and coaches is that the referees are "part of the playing field." There are many calls in a football game. Some go in our favor, ome go against us. The winner is the team that can take advantage of its opportunities and dig in to overcome setbacks.

I love this bit from Jason Kelce on the podcast last year on why an obvious face mask penalty against the other team, that wasn't called, isn't a a penalty.

I actually think of this clip often in terms of skating, and you don't need to know a thing about the NFL. Pretend Jason K. is your favorite skater. Just substitute "underrotation/edge call" for "face mask". It wasn't an underrotation! You know why? Because the tech caller didn't call a bleeping underrotation!

And don't be a sore loser.

 

[Mathematician]

Blaming any mistakenly obvious ruling (whatever that is) on the refs being biased is IMO foolish, however.

So the observed ability to make overwhelmingly accurate predictions on every sports season or professional fight based off of drama, marketing, and popularity meanwhile technical analysis leaving you with coinflip results in betting, is just a coincidence? Any successful sports better could tell you thats unlikely.

 

[Mathman]

I love this bit from Jason Kelce on the podcast last year on why an obvious face mask penalty against the other team, that wasn't called, isn't a penalty.

OK , so I was going to be a lttle devil and ask you, How did Jason feel about those two bogus false start calls against him on the closing drive against the Bills that almost cost them the game? Ha ha.

But then I found this. Jason: Sure they were false starts. A center can't do that.

https://www.themirror.com/sport/american-football/jason-kelce-eagles-rob-mcelhenney-214452

 

[el henry]

So the observed ability to make overwhelmingly accurate predictions on every sports season or professional fight based off of drama, marketing, and popularity meanwhile technical analysis leaving you with coinflip results in betting, is just a coincidence? Any successful sports better could tell you thats unlikely.

I would not listen to sports bettors tell me anything, actually, "successful" or not

I disagree with every unquantifiable and unprovable premise from which one can supposedly make predictions (popularity, drama, marketing, all of which could just as easily be results of an unpredictable season rather than predicates), so I'm not sure discussion on that would be useful for me.

Nope, the NFL is "scripted" like Jason Brown has four different quads. Each equally true.

I can "wuzrob" with the best of them, whether in skating or football. But I still agree with Jason Kelce that blaming anything on refs, judges, etc. is a loser's mentality.

 

[Mathematician]

I would not listen to sports bettors tell me anything, actually, "successful" or not

I disagree with every unquantifiable and unprovable premise from which one can supposedly make predictions (popularity, drama, marketing, all of which could just as easily be results of an unpredictable season rather than predicates), so I'm not sure discussion on that would be useful for me.

Nope, the NFL is "scripted" like Jason Brown has four different quads. Each equally true.

I can "wuzrob" with the best of them, whether in skating or football. But I still agree with Jason Kelce that blaming anything on refs, judges, etc. is a loser's mentality.

Few things are provable, generally only in math do objective proofs exist. In philosophy and science there exists only support by evidence which leads to accurate and exclusive predictions. I did indeed provide examples of massively observed exclusive predictions which evidence my idea beyond reasonable doubt. Loser's mentality is irrelevant because as aforementioned I only ever benefitted from what I am describing. I also never had emotional attachment to any sports teams. You're sort of building up a straw man of a bitter emotionally over-concerned sports fan who uses "script" as a vindicating catch term for his team when things fail. But this ignores the argument's nuances and my personal position which I carefully explained.


But anyways, based off earlier comments I realize you grew up in a far away generation from me (since you say you have been watching skating for over 50 years). Our paradigms therefore are insanely different and the consequential rift is probably impossible to close to any useful degree.

Regardless I enjoy these discussions because it develops my articulacy and emotional control which becomes very helpful when I come to partaking in more serious topics. Its like training.

 

[Mathman]

Regardless I enjoy these discussions.

I don't. Another thread down the tubes.

 

[Mathematician]

I don't. Another thread down the tubes.

This thread was down the tubes since like the 2nd page. Nobody was actually discussing the topic, just arguing about Russians as usual. I contributed to the original topic but its been dead. I also tried discussing skating technicalities but people essentially said it doesnt matter to them, which is fine. So now were partaking in a naturally occurring tangental discussion which isnt impeding on any other important discussion.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Thanks a lot for your input. Its helpful. Do/did you skate your self? I did agree earlier that unequivocally discerning jumps requires the understanding of edges. I try my best to do so and thankfully the lutz takeoff edge is quite distinct (when done properly... which isnt always. In fact, quite often we see flutzes, which makes this more difficult). However, I have yet to judge a flip versus lutz incorrectly based off entry, and I've watched a LOT of figure skating. Perhaps I just have an intuition on how the flip entry specifically goes. Also, I realize men may perform much more complicated entries which would skew the perception more - I often forget men's skating even exists which sometimes rifts my perspective from those of the people with which I'm discussing skating.

If possible, could you perhaps show an example of a lutz entry which resembles and flip entry? I am interesting in understanding skating technique as much as possible. I understand its unlikely you can do so off memory, and I totally agree with your point anyways, but I'm just curious because like I mentioned I never misinterpreted a lutz for a flip based off entry.

The aforementioned fact on edges often being imperfect (especially with the Russian ladies) is the biggest reason I rarely use that more correct method of discernment (watching for the takeoff edge).

By the way, its definitely true that Russian standards rarely put much emphasis on correct edges but rather full rotation, air position, and landing form. This will definitely be a rift for the Russian ladies when they go international. Since mild URs are almost always let go this season by ISU, meanwhile in Russia we often see -10 TES post-skate reductions just based off the q. And vice versa about the wrong takeoff edges - Russian judges do not care (AT ALL), but internationally the girls will probably suffer for it. The same goes for takeoff position - Russia allows much more kipping and force while ISU requires clean grace. I did however notice that international judges are more lenient with a wacky air axis or scuffed landing. But, I recognize that Russian judging has just been particularly brutal with this year, at least in the latter half. The spin and StSq calls have been medieval as Lariko put it.

Yes, you can probably tell most lutz entries due to the fact that there is a bit more of a pause before takeoff (which can be longer in some cases than others) to establish the outside edge (versus flip where there is only a split second between the 3-turn/mohawk and takeoff). It's not wrong to figure out which jump it is by that method, but the description 'gliding entry' versus 'turning' entry is a bit vague (the skater is always gliding and will have to turn backwards at some point).

This is a relatively quick mohawk/cross-to-LBO entry for a lutz.
This is the traditional long LBO entry to lutz.
You won't really find 'long' flip entries as it makes the jump lose momentum, but I guess here is an example (at that point in her career she had non-ideal flip technique, which was fixed later, and a flutz, which was permanent). This programme also has a double bracket entry into the (f)lutz.
Bonus: Here is a 3Lz-3F combo (this combo is controversial because of the lutz landing on the non-usual leg, not the flip takeoff)
In earlier history when single jump combos/jumping in two directions was more common, I believe there were lutz-lutz combos (perhaps somebody else more familiar with historical footage can find an example). To execute such a combo one would land on the usual back outside edge, pick in with the free leg and rotate in the opposite direction to the first jump.
I don't skate at this high a level (just what they call 'test track' in some places), but the same rules apply no matter the number of rotations.

I don't think Russian girls flutz more than other girls. Flutz is just generally a bit more common among women than men (possibly due to hip and lower leg anatomy). Men don't necessarily perform complicated entries either; for any skater it depends how comfortable they are with the jump (e.g. nobody does many steps into a quad lutz).

Anyway regarding the main topic I think it's just a domestic vs international thing with scoring (some countries are generous domestically, a few are even stingier).

 

[Mathematician]

Yes, you can probably tell most lutz entries due to the fact that there is a bit more of a pause before takeoff (which can be longer in some cases than others) to establish the outside edge (versus flip where there is only a split second between the 3-turn/mohawk and takeoff). It's not wrong to figure out which jump it is by that method, but the description 'gliding entry' versus 'turning' entry is a bit vague (the skater is always gliding and will have to turn backwards at some point).

This is a relatively quick mohawk/cross-to-LBO entry for a lutz.
This is the traditional long LBO entry to lutz.
You won't really find 'long' flip entries as it makes the jump lose momentum, but I guess here is an example (at that point in her career she had non-ideal flip technique, which was fixed later, and a flutz, which was permanent). This programme also has a double bracket entry into the (f)lutz.
Bonus: Here is a 3Lz-3F combo (this combo is controversial because of the lutz landing on the non-usual leg, not the flip takeoff)
In earlier history when single jump combos/jumping in two directions was more common, I believe there were lutz-lutz combos (perhaps somebody else more familiar with historical footage can find an example). To execute such a combo one would land on the usual back outside edge, pick in with the free leg and rotate in the opposite direction to the first jump.
I don't skate at this high a level (just what they call 'test track' in some places), but the same rules apply no matter the number of rotations.

I don't think Russian girls flutz more than other girls. Flutz is just generally a bit more common among women than men (possibly due to hip and lower leg anatomy). Men don't necessarily perform complicated entries either; for any skater it depends how comfortable they are with the jump (e.g. nobody does many steps into a quad lutz).

Anyway regarding the main topic I think it's just a domestic vs international thing with scoring (some countries are generous domestically, a few are even stingier).

Great response. You are very knowledgable, I hope to reach that level some day. The Mao Asada clip is indeed very deceptive. This is the first time I've seen a lutz entry truly mimic a flip. I have rewatched this lutz a few times and I admit that I would certainly have judged it to be a flip. Not only because of the entry, but because in addition to the entry her edge looks very indistinct and especially with a perfect side view distinguishing accurately seems impossible.

I dont like that 3Lz-3F combo at all. I respect the mindset to attempt it but even if landed clean I imagine it wouldnt be aesthetic. Sometimes rules arent meant to be broken. I dont know much about Lz-Lz but I know T-T are common. Which is interesting, how come the T-T opposite landing foot looks fine but the 3Lz-3F looks dirty? On second thought, maybe he just didnt execute it well enough, but it was still jarring to see the wrong landing foot on a lutz.

I dont know about flutzing in particular but I do believe Russian girls have significantly dirtier jump technique as opposed to the international scene, at least by historical standards. Recently the international standard isnt very high with even Kaori having indistinct edges. But if we compare the best Russians historically (Shcherbakova, Valieva, even Trusova) to for example Yuna Kim, the difference is very sharp. You can judge any Yuna jump by edge but with Shcherbakova or Valieva especially this is incredibly inconsistent. This was always the case with Eteri girls (except maybe Zagitova), but Plushenko's girls for example are a lot more standard for sure. Maybe this season things are different though, because the Russian girls are looking a little cleaner. I dont know what caused this change, maybe the international girls lost some motivation without Russians, but Russians are still training to their maximum. Or maybe I am just blindly accepting the status quo because I am not familiar enough with the international scene to criticize it properly, though I'm certain Yuna indeed has the best jumps I have seen (not to say that makes her the best overall skater).

 

[Flying Feijoa]

This is the first time I've seen a lutz entry truly mimic a flip. I have rewatched this lutz a few times and I admit that I would certainly have judged it to be a flip. Not only because of the entry, but because in addition to the entry her edge looks very indistinct and especially with a perfect side view distinguishing accurately seems impossible.

Just to clarify (since I'm not sure if it was clear), the first jump in the combo was an intended flip. The solo jump later (after brackets) was the intended lutz, which had the edge change.
There are posters here with more expertise who are tech specialists/coaches/ex-elite competitors. If you are interested in proper technical discussions, maybe it would be good to create a separate thread where these questions will catch their attention.

 

[Mathematician]

Just to clarify (since I'm not sure if it was clear), the first jump in the combo was an intended flip. The solo jump later (after brackets) was the intended lutz, which had the edge change.
There are posters here with more expertise who are tech specialists/coaches/ex-elite competitors. If you are interested in proper technical discussions, maybe it would be good to create a separate thread where these questions will catch their attention.

Oh, I see. I definitely would have identified the later jump as lutz based off entry. Because you timestamped the combo I thought you were referring to that, and it rather shocked me that it could be a lutz.

Thanks. I was just discussing this because it went this way naturally. If I want to discuss entries further I will create a separate thread.

 

[gkelly]

In earlier history when single jump combos/jumping in two directions was more common, I believe there were lutz-lutz combos (perhaps somebody else more familiar with historical footage can find an example). To execute such a combo one would land on the usual back outside edge, pick in with the free leg and rotate in the opposite direction to the first jump.

I've only ever seen that done with single lutzes, not by elite skaters.

If anyone has historical examples done at the elite levels with doubles or triples, I would be curious to see (or read written documentation of).

As far as I know, higher-level reverse lutz combinations are not so much historical as hypothetical.

 

[Skating91]

Maybe it takes some practice. But I dont totally understand how you could mix up those two. It should be pretty clear when the toe pick is used. Loop and salchow are really similar though.

I never had much trouble discerning jumps after watching the ISU technique simulations. Essentially just what I wrote.

I watch their feet as they take off, but the entry to the jump shows what they will jump.

 

[gsk8]

It will be interesting to revisit the topic of this post during and after Russian Nats.

 

[eppen]

I just did this for the protests thread, but it fits here also:

Women attempting 3Lzs and edge calls in mostly international comps (could include also data from JPN nats bcs of the database I used).

2017-18 1258 attempts, 171 edge calls = 14% (calls for Russians 13 = 8% of calls)
2018-19 1170 attempts, 122 edge calls = 10% (calls for Russians 23 = 19% of calls)
2019-20 1220 attempts, 215 edge calls = 18% (calls for Russians 29 = 13% of calls)
2020-21 415 attempts, 58 edge calls = 14% (calls for Russians 2 = 3% of calls)
2021-22 1407 attempts, 202 edge calls = 14% (calls for Russians 3 = 1,5% of calls)
2022-23 1476 attempts, 263 edge calls = 18% (obviously no calls for Russians)

Apparently, the late- to post-pandemic Russian women were just about perfect with their Lutz edges according to international judging panels.

 

[Skating91]

I just did this for the protests thread, but it fits here also:

Women attempting 3Lzs and edge calls in mostly international comps (could include also data from JPN nats bcs of the database I used).

2017-18 1258 attempts, 171 edge calls = 14% (calls for Russians 13 = 8% of calls)
2018-19 1170 attempts, 122 edge calls = 10% (calls for Russians 23 = 19% of calls)
2019-20 1220 attempts, 215 edge calls = 18% (calls for Russians 29 = 13% of calls)
2020-21 415 attempts, 58 edge calls = 14% (calls for Russians 2 = 3% of calls)
2021-22 1407 attempts, 202 edge calls = 14% (calls for Russians 3 = 1,5% of calls)
2022-23 1476 attempts, 263 edge calls = 18% (obviously no calls for Russians)

Apparently, the late- to post-pandemic Russian women were just about perfect with their Lutz edges according to international judging panels.

That seems about right. Valieva didn't have an easy lutz but always found the outside edge, Trusova's lutz edge was text book (so much so her flip was a lutz), Shcherbakova's lutz improved.