Evaluating USFS world team selection

[brightphoton]

In recent years, the the US Figure Skating Association has changed how it picks its World and Olympic teams. In the olden days, the World/Olympic team was the top medalists, unless you were a legendary athlete who was injured. Now we get a pdf or Word file, filled with paragraphs about different tiers of competitions that are weighed differently, and it changes year to year. It's also qualitative, so it's basically the selection committee sending whoever they want to send.

This year, we have:

• bronze medalist Jason sent to Worlds instead of silver medalist Vincent
• strange alternate rankings
• silver medalist pairs Castelli and Tran being left out of everything (but Tran isn't an American, so I can understand that decision)
• Junior Worlds team selection is always a mess

USA Gymnastics has also been choosing its team by selection since 1996. Recently, there has been a lawsuit against the team doctor Dr. Nassar, who was also hired in 1996, coincidentally, hmmmmm. He has sexually abused hundreds of elite gymnasts and Michigan athletes. I watched a recent interview with former US gymnast, Jeanette Antolin. She talks about why she didn't speak out against Nassar earlier, even though he was sexually abusing her. She said that she feared that the selection committee would not pick her for teams in retaliation for speaking out against the respected doctor.

I don't like the new direction that US figure skating is taking. It seems like a wrong culture change, make it so that a small group of people get to choose who becomes successful or not, and their decisions are opaque and secret, so you have to always please them and be quiet if something is wrong. It prioritizes medals and 3 spots over fairness and choosing athletes based on merit.

For example, what if Vincent wasn't chosen for the World's team because he looked at someone sideways or talked back to someone? We wouldn't know!

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/speak-out-against-abuse-it-hurts-your-chances/
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/team-usa-doctor-allegedly-disguised-sexual-abuse-as-treatments/


Jeanette Antolin: "No one wants to step out of line, because there's a group of people that make decisions that dictate whether you're successful or not. You just -- you comply with what you're told to do."

Interviewer: "Those 'other people' who are helping making these decisions about your success, did they determine whether you'd make the team for the Olympics, don't make the team?"

Antolin: "Yeah.

Interviewer: "Is it subjective?"

Antolin: "Absolutely. Absolutely. It had never been like that before '96. It was by ranking. Then the whole program changed. Then there was a selection commitee. They basically chose who was on the 2000 Olympic team."

Interviewer: "So you're at a place, at a ranch, where they have control over you. If you look at them sideways, or talk back, what's going to happen?"

Antolin: "It hurts your chances."

 

[Mrs. P]

Going to state the obvious that correlation =/= causation. It's clear that USA Gymnastics had far bigger issues that lead to abuse of power and authority beyond its team selection process. The team selection process if anything was a symptom/indicator NOT the cause.

I'm all for discussing the merits of team selection process, but I'd be careful to use generalizations and accusations to get there.

That said the biggest criticism of USFS selection process, IMO, is that it's not clear how much weight past performance/body of work. They attempted to do that with the tiers, but I'm not sure if it was all that effective. Hence the debates over Jason/Vincent and maybe to a smaller extent accepting the injury bye from the Knierimis.

Also it's not clear to me whether that document applies for 4CC and Junior Worlds selection.

 

[el henry]

oh goody, Jason v. Vincent in another thread!

Let me go get my "no, it wasn't ignoring the results and Vincent wasn't eligible and it makes no difference if this was the first time Senior minimums were required for Worlds why should USFS ignore all past practice and keep the team open for Vincent to get qualifying scores, detrimental reliance promissory estoppel and all that in my mind would still apply and Jason is the better choice anyway" posts.

Or maybe not.

 

[brightphoton]

Going to state the obvious that correlation =/= causation. It's clear that USA Gymnastics had far bigger issues that lead to abuse of power and authority beyond its team selection process.

I'm all for discussing the merits of team selection process, but I'd be careful to use generalizations and accusations to get there.

It's the entire culture of a backroom selection committee choosing the team. You don't know why you were chosen, or why you weren't. You annoy the wrong people, no World's or Olympics competition for you. Yes, US Figure Skating is nowhere close to that, but I don't like the path it's heading down.

oh goody, Jason v. Vincent in another thread!

Let me go get my "no, it wasn't ignoring the results and Vincent wasn't eligible and it makes no difference if this was the first time Senior minimums were required for Worlds why should USFS ignore all past practice and keep the team open for Vincent to get qualifying scores, detrimental reliance promissory estoppel and all that in my mind would still apply and Jason is the better choice anyway" posts.

Or maybe not.

It appeared to me that Vincent was able to get his minimums in time anyway. Did USFSA ever give an official statement for why those chose Jason over Vincent? It was because of the minimums? There's no transparency over how they choose teams now. Just like gymnastics.

Besides, the alternate list -- it wasn't in order of rankings. Junior Worlds team is also weird.

 

[ice coverage]

... It prioritizes medals and 3 spots over fairness and choosing athletes based on merit. ...

The current USFS system does choose athletes based on merit.
Placements at Worlds and at other competitions are measures of merit, as are placements at Nats.

There certainly is a case to be made that the current system increases "fairness."
Reasonable people can have differing opinions on the question of fairness.

... different tiers of competitions that are weighed differently, and it changes year to year ...

AFAIK, the competitions included in the selection criteria for Worlds have been identical since at least the 2013-2014 season?
What is new this year is that the competitions are grouped into tiers, which -- if anything -- sheds a bit of new light on the process.

The primary change this year is that the U.S. champion is not guaranteed a spot on the World team.

Going to state the obvious that correlation =/= causation. It's clear that USA Gymnastics had far bigger issues that lead to abuse of power and authority beyond its team selection process.  ...

:agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree:

... Also it's not clear to me whether that document applies for 4CC and Junior Worlds selection.

:agree:

 

[skatesofgold]

It's the entire culture of a backroom selection committee choosing the team. You don't know why you were chosen, or why you weren't. You annoy the wrong people, no World's or Olympics competition for you. Yes, US Figure Skating is nowhere close to that, but I don't like the path it's heading down.



It appeared to me that Vincent was able to get his minimums in time anyway. Did USFSA ever give an official statement for why those chose Jason over Vincent? It was because of the minimums? There's no transparency over how they choose teams now. Just like gymnastics.

Besides, the alternate list -- it wasn't in order of rankings. Junior Worlds team is also weird.

I will not deny the abuse of power in USA Gymnastics, but the idea of using a selection committee is because using the top 6 or 5 all-around gymnasts doesn't necessarily get the best team score. You might pick someone who doesn't do all-around because they have an amazing vault (ie Alicia Sacramone in 2008) and will help the team more than the gymnast who places sixth or fifth. It's about strategy.

 

[brightphoton]

The current USFS system does choose athletes based on merit.
Placements at Worlds and at other competitions are measures of merit, as are placements at Nats.

There certainly is a case to be made that the current system increases "fairness."
Reasonable people can have differing opinions on the question of fairness.



AFAIK, the competitions included in the selection criteria for Worlds have been identical since at least the 2013-2014 season?
What is new this year is that the competitions are grouped into tiers, which -- if anything -- sheds a bit of new light on the process.

The primary change this year is that the U.S. champion is not guaranteed a spot on the World team.



:agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree:



:agree:

How many points does one get for a World or other competition placement? How much is each tier worth? Are tier 1 competitions worth 50% of your total grade? 80℅? What about tier 2 and tier 3? How many points do you get for first place? Third?

Oh ... I see. It's qualitative, yes, of course. Sounds an awful lot of "let's pick whoever we want."

I will not deny the abuse of power in USA Gymnastics, but the idea of using a selection committee is because using the top 6 or 5 all-around gymnasts doesn't necessarily get the best team score. You might pick someone who doesn't do all-around because they have an amazing vault (ie Alicia Sacramone in 2008) and will help the team more than the gymnast who places sixth or fifth. It's about strategy.

I know that a selection committee with humans and strategy can get more Olympic medals than "top medalist" but what's more important? Olympic medals, or a culture in which athletes don't feel like they succeed or fail at the arbitrary decision of a selection committee?

 

[skatesofgold]

How many points does one get for a World or other competition placement? How much is each tier worth? Are tier 1 competitions worth 50% of your total grade? 80℅? What about tier 2 and tier 3? How many points do you get for first place? Third?

Oh ... I see. It's qualitative, yes, of course. Sounds an awful lot of "let's pick whoever we want."




I know that a selection committee with humans and strategy can get more Olympic medals than "top medalist" but what's more important? Olympic medals, or a culture in which athletes don't feel like they succeed or fail at the arbitrary decision of a selection committee?

It's sport. How do you think they select other sports teams? For soccer or hockey, you wouldn't select all forwards even if they were more talented than the defense players available in a country. It makes perfect sense to me that you would select someone who's good at bars for the fifth spot if the top 4 all-around gymnasts weren't enough.

eta: And what's the point of having 5 all-around gymnasts when only two of them will make finals anyways?

 

[brightphoton]

It's sport. How do you think they select other sports teams? For soccer or hockey, you wouldn't select all forwards even if they were more talented than the defense players available in a country. It makes perfect sense to me that you would select someone who's good at bars if the top 4 all-around gymnasts weren't enough.

1. Aren't teams sports made of specific positions? Forward, defense, goalie, etc? Obviously, you can't pick 11 quarterbacks for a football team. So gymnastics can have best bars, best beam, best I can't think of the other 2 apparatuses. Or whatever they want! But make the selection criteria and quantifiable, not "whoever Bela and Marta like best"

2. Football and soccer teams are made up of grown men. Our sports are made of much younger, more sheltered girls.

 

[skatesofgold]

1. Aren't teams sports made of specific positions? Forward, defense, goalie, etc? Obviously, you can't pick 11 quarterbacks for a football team. So gymnastics can have best bars, best beam, best I can't think of the other 2 apparatuses. Or whatever they want! But make the selection criteria and quantifiable, not "whoever Bela and Marta like best"

2. Football and soccer teams are made up of grown men. Our sports are made of much younger, more sheltered girls.

1. It's not who Bela and Marta like best. Bela hasn't even been involved in the sport as part of the selection committee since 2000. And it's not just the United States where they select teams, and it's certainly not just women. Men's gymnastics has a selection committees too.

2. You do realize that there's women's soccer and hockey at the Olympics. Somebody has to select those teams, and some of those girls are still teenagers.

 

[ice coverage]

... Did USFSA ever give an official statement for why those chose Jason over Vincent? It was because of the minimums? ...

USFS has never said that TES minimums were any reason for choosing Jason over Vincent.

USFS has never stated any reasoning specific to the choice of Jason over Vincent.
And the silence from USFS is fine by me.

I do not blame USFS for not spelling out additional details of the selection process.
Additional details would not eliminate debate over the "fairness" of the process.  No matter what any particular additional detail would be, some people would agree with it; others would disagree.  "Worlds results should not count for X%.  They should count for Y%!" ... "No, they should count for Z%!!" ... etc., etc.

 

[brightphoton]

1. It's not who Bela and Marta like best. Bela hasn't even been involved in the sport as part of the selection committee since 2000. And it's not just the United States where they select teams, and it's certainly not just women. Men's gymnastics has a selection committees too.

2. You do realize that there's women's soccer and hockey at the Olympics. Somebody has to select those teams, and some of those girls are still teenagers.

I wish I were altruistic enough to care about other sports, but I don't. Let the hockey and soccer girls have their selection committee, if it means that much to them.

What I care about is US figure skating. I don't want our sport to have that selection procedure, and I don't want the culture that comes with it. Bring back top medalists go to Olympics. Bring your A game at Nationals!

 

[lappo]

1. It's not who Bela and Marta like best. Bela hasn't even been involved in the sport as part of the selection committee since 2000. And it's not just the United States where they select teams, and it's certainly not just women. Men's gymnastics has a selection committees too.

2. You do realize that there's women's soccer and hockey at the Olympics. Somebody has to select those teams, and some of those girls are still teenagers.

Men's gymnastics, while less talked than girls, has actually stranger selection process because the apparatuses exceed the number of gymnasts...and to make a good team you sometimes have to sacrifice a gymnast who is very good at one for a gymnast who is quite good at two.

 

[skatesofgold]

I wish I were altruistic enough to care about other sports, but I don't. Let the hockey and soccer girls have their selection committee, if it means that much to them.

What I care about is US figure skating. I don't want our sport to have that selection procedure, and I don't want the culture that comes with it. Bring back top medalists go to Olympics. Bring your A game at Nationals!

I actually agree with you there. I don't think a selection committee would be best for figure skating because it's more like swimming and athletics where it's almost completely individual.

 

[brightphoton]

USFS has never said that TES minimums were any reason for choosing Jason over Vincent.

USFS has never stated any reasoning specific to the choice of Jason over Vincent.
And the silence from USFS is fine by me.

I do not blame USFS for not spelling out additional details of the selection process.
Additional details would not eliminate debate over the "fairness" of the process.  No matter what any particular additional detail would be, some people would agree with it; others would disagree.  "Worlds results should not count for X%.  They should count for Y%!" ... "No, they should count for Z%!!" ... etc., etc.

At least if we knew that Vincent didn't get enough points to go to Worlds, we would know the reason. Right now, he could have been left off because someone on the committee didn't like his attitude and left him off. We don't know!

It's why partly why these gymnasts said nothing for so many years. No one wants to rock the boat when you can get let off of teams without explanation, despite better competition results.

 

[Mathman]

I agree with Bright Photon on two points. First, we can never be too vigilant about putting children in the position that they are expected to please powerful adults no matter what.

Second, we are teaching our children that the only thing that counts is gold medals and that the way to get them is to scheme and maneuver more slickly than the other guy.

It would be better for the USFSA to withdraw from the ISU and international competition altogether than to continue down that slippery slope.

 

[skatesofgold]

At least if we knew that Vincent didn't get enough points to go to Worlds, we would know the reason. Right now, he could have been left off because someone on the committee didn't like his attitude and left him off. We don't know!

It's why partly why these gymnasts said nothing for so many years. No one wants to rock the boat when you can get let off of teams without explanation, despite better competition results.

Gymnasts weren't "left off of teams without explanation despite better competition results". Jeanette Antolin placed 11th at the 2000 Olympic Trials. She just wasn't good enough. I don't think she's lying about the doctor, but there were much better gymnasts than her at the time. The only gymnast who has any right to complain about not making the team in 2000 is Vanessa Atler, but she didn't do well at Olympic Trials. Her scores from Nationals were what allowed her to still place sixth over four competition days.

 

[ice coverage]

... Second, we are teaching our children that the only thing that counts is gold medals and that the way to get them is to scheme and maneuver more slickly than the other guy. ...

"We" are???
"We" are teaching our children that the way to get gold medals "is to scheme and maneuver more slickly than the other guy"???

Who are "we"??

 

[brightphoton]

Gymnasts weren't "left off of teams without explanation despite better competition results". Jeanette Antolin placed 11th at the 2000 Olympic Trials. She just wasn't good enough. I don't think she's lying about the doctor, but there were much better gymnasts than her at the time. The only gymnast who has any right to complain about not making the team in 2000 is Vanessa Atler, but she didn't do well at Olympic Trials. Her scores from Nationals were what allowed her to still place sixth over four competition days.

I don't know a forward summersault from a layout, and I barely watch it on a once-a-four year basis.

"Being left of of teams, despite better competition results" was referring to figure skating.

A skater got second place, and yet was left off the team in favor of a third place skater. Why? No one actually knows.

Look at the alternate list for the ladies. It doesn't go by rankings at Nationals. Why? No one knows?

How do you get chosen to go to junior world's? Dunno.

Being buddy buddy with the selection committee is much more important now, and I don't like that one bit.

 

[Mathman]

Who are "we"??

Sports federations.