Feminism and Figure Skating

[jcoates]

An interesting point about the public language used to describe female athlete. Dick Button struggled mightily to find consistency in the terminology he used to refer to female skaters. He frequently bounced around between calling them ladies, girl, and occasionally women. I often wondered if Peggy or his former wife or daughter chided him behind the scenes to get with the times. He did get better over time. Still, I think most people would agree that Dick was not a sexist, just of another generation.

A former colleague of Button's, Chris Schenkel, who called many skating events for ABC as color commentator in the 60s, 70s and 80s was notorious for making condescending comments about female athletes along with outright hitting on them on air during not just his skating coverage but also for tennis. There was an old made for tv tennis event held in Hilton Head, SC in the 70s. All the major stars played the event. He routinely made comments about the fine figures of the women and how attractive they looked in the tennis dresses. He commented on their hair, on whether playing hard was a strain on them because of their gender. To hear it is rather shocking from today's point of view. Talk about creepy.

So from that perspective, holding on to an archaic term in certain languages or countries, while potentially irritating, is more trivial than actual physical objectification.

 

[Tonichelle]

^ I think the point is that the power to choose was in your mother's hands, not someone else's.

(I, for one, am glad you're here. )

the thing was she was not given that choice by the progressive people in the field. It was "kill it off so it doesn't kill you" or other such nonsense. That they just flat WOULDN'T treat her or the child. Where is the logic in that?

this happened just four years ago to a friend of mine. The child was going to be underdeveloped when he was born so the doctors didn't want to touch the case because it was a "why bother, it might die and if it does live his life is going to be horrible". They weren't giving a fair and balanced viewpoint it was just a "this grosses me out for whatever reason, so let's just kill it". Nevermind that when animals are put down for quality of life reasons that's somehow wrong? What?!

In my case I'm fairly healthy, won't say normal because we all know that isn't true lol, but had my mother listened to little miss progressive pro woman THIS woman wouldn't be here. All because it was an inconvenience to the doctor.

My friend lost her child - after going to another doctor who was truthful that Asher probably wouldn't make it, but that wasn't his decision any more than it was the other doctors. They couldn'tnot try...

yes my mom and friend chose to go find someone else, but not before being bullied by their first choice of doctor. how many other cases are there that people don't have the "strength" to go somewhere else?

BTW, Toni I'm glad you're here, but plenty of non-feminist doctors would and have given the same advice to women of your mother's age about childbirth. There are plenty of health related concerns aside from any social ones to take into account, particularly since every woman's individual physiology is unique and can react differently to the conditions of pregnancy. It's not fair to malign all feminists based on one piece of medical advice.

Maybe 27 years ago, but even then women were having children well into their 40s... and they certainly are now (not all of them the old fashioned way, but I digress). The thing is, it wasn't a suggestion. It was a "this is the only way we will treat you." Where's the choice in that?! That it somehow helps women, I'm just not seeing it.

 

[Medusa]

So the admittedly awful behaviour by some doctors is a direct consequence of their liberal progressive minds, that were poisoned by ideas of feminism? And liberals have no respect for life and are always selfishly looking for their own advantage or a way to push their liberal feminist agenda on people, thus forcing women to abandon their children before birth? It couldn't possibly have anything to do with a lack of empathy, a corrupted medical system, individual character flaws and a flawed medical education?

 

[callalily]

I continue to think the name of the discipline is an interesting, if not important, issue. I would concede that my perspective is Anglophone, and that I know little about how the discipline is named elsewhere, or what the connotations of those names are. But where the sport is called “ladies” or the equivalent elsewhere, I believe that it belittles the competitors and stifles creativity, authenticity, athleticism, and art in the sport.

The names and "labels" that we use are important, I agree. They not only reflect our thought but can also shape it. While the ladies/women example (as a figure skating event title) may not seem the most blatant or significant one ("pro-life" vs. "anti-abortion", "woman driver", "geek" are more obvious examples in the English language), I do see what you are getting at. The "ladies" term is a historical one in the English-speaking figure skating world, but given a choice, I prefer "women" since I perceive it as a more neutral term that doesn't carry "baggage" that might influence the way competitors are viewed - the types of programs they should put out, the types of costumes they should wear. The term that bothers me more in figure skating, though, is "pairs boy". Every time I hear a coach or official refer to a 20-something year old man as a "pairs boy" I cringe.

 

[Olympia]

I think there's a related word in dance, at least in the musical theater. The chorus members of a musical are called chorus girls and chorus boys. I agree, it doesn't sound right to me, either.

Toni, I can't say anything about the doctors your mother and friend encountered, except to remind you that all feminists don't think the same things or act the same way. I had a feminist doctor in my family. She specialized in helping women with severe heart conditions carry pregnancies to full term.

And I too am glad you're here. We Kurt fans stick together!

 

[Tonichelle]

So the admittedly awful behaviour by some doctors is a direct consequence of their liberal progressive minds, that were poisoned by ideas of feminism? And liberals have no respect for life and are always selfishly looking for their own advantage or a way to push their liberal feminist agenda on people, thus forcing women to abandon their children before birth? It couldn't possibly have anything to do with a lack of empathy, a corrupted medical system, individual character flaws and a flawed medical education?

considering their source I think it's more their anti-appreciation for life... be it feminism, flawed education, etc...all kinda goes together IMO.



as for ladies vs women, I had a college prof who proclaimed that one could not be a woman until one had sex. So some of us apparently can remain "young ladies" or "girls" until we give it up I suppose... (and she WAS pushing a feminist agenda which is how the topic came up. I just remember coming on GS instead of continuing to pay attention to the lecture. Pretty sure Susan B. Anthony would have smacked her upside her head lol - though when I pointed out that it seemed anti-feminist to say that sex determined such a thing she then said sex in marriage is what somehow kills the woman's power [paraphrasing from memory] like I said she was nuts.)


Not all people who are "feminists" are the "bad" kind. I have no problem with those fighting for the equal right to vote, work, etc... but there are other points in the movement that I don't find all that GOOD for society at large or women in general... and the movement that gets their panties in a wad (or gstrings, or whatever) because *gasp* of such a trivial thing as ladies vs women... well, as a woman/lady I just can't get on board with it.

 

[emma]

^ so, I can see you point about not getting on board; what I find distressing is the dismissive language, the anger that seems to be boiling beneath it - like it is just too too exhausting to think about power, equality, inequality, identity, opportunity and yes - gender relations in all of this and these shapes and impact what and how we see, experience, understand and wish for in life. I also cringe at the seeming wish that 'it' would just all go away, when the "it" remains unspecified but makes me worry that IT does not include inequality (like that can stay, just deal with it) but people like me who might question it and hope for more. But like many others here, I too am glad you are here.

I think it might be important to think about feminism in the plural and many have suggested and thus, feminisms, and it might be important to think of women that way too - as many "kinds" - with different races, nations, class statuses, ages, abilities, sexual identities and so forth. With this in mind, one might consider thinking about reproductive rights (and their movements) and reproductive justice - as a kind of exercise to thinking about different ways of understanding or conceptualizing problems and needs, and programs for change too. The latter, for example, has worked not 'just' for the right to medically sound abortions, but rather, for the right (legal, political, economic, cultural, etc) to have children and so on...

About gender, feminism and economic change: well,....many like to call our current economic crisis a 'mancession', and when they do so, they like to do so to say "f" you to the feminists and to blame them for the current economic crisis all in one breath. It is much more complicated than this f you sound bite, though - yes, many men have lost jobs and many more have faced stagnant and declining wages in the US for the last 3 decades. This, in fact, is a big part of what propelled or pushed so many women to enter the labor force ... but this entry was and remains overwhelming low wage, service sector, low to no benefit employment. So, in short, we are all screwed but some like to make that fact blurry ('cuz then maybe we would unite and do something about it - the it in this case being our economic system -- but divide and conquer has had such a successful history....

 

[solfan82]

I don't mean to stray from the debate here but I just want to respond - Thank you, Mathman, for the welcome

 

[skateluvr]

With minor things getting edited, such as poster opinions of certain skaters, kidding, silly remarks, I truly think this thread does not belong in this forum. Discussions of feminism, abortion or not are very serious and this should be moved to ? but not here.

OBJECTION TO SUBJECT MATTER. IMPORTANT BUT NOT FOR FS BOARD.

 

[Olympia]

Maybe, but it's been great while it's lasted. Good to talk these things out from time to time--though scary a bit--with people who agree and with people who disagree. Thanks to everyone for being so honest, for talking and for listening.

 

[jcoates]

And predictably the cries begin to censor discussion or at least bury it out of sight and out of mind when the topic becomes uncomfortable. Ah ignorance is bliss.

BTW, emma, I think you just got an answer to your question in the post above.

 

[skateluvr]

It is amazing what gets censored her and who does not. But really, this thread should be moved. Carry on. Not uncomfortable, but it seems blatantlly against guidelines, however mods are in the thread so, whatever.

 

[sky_fly20]

With minor things getting edited, such as poster opinions of certain skaters, kidding, silly remarks, I truly think this thread does not belong in this forum. Discussions of feminism, abortion or not are very serious and this should be moved to ? but not here.

OBJECTION TO SUBJECT MATTER. IMPORTANT BUT NOT FOR FS BOARD.

that's why this thread should have been closed or moved to politics section days ago.
we know it will end up like this sort of discussion.

 

[Bluebonnet]

skatinginbc, I have meant every word I've said reguardless how you interpret them. I was talking about the bad consequences of feminism. Everything I've refered to was linked to it, even though some people might not be aware of them.

Canada is so liberal that the local Chinese newspaper is littered with anti-gay sentiments. I wonder if Bluebonnet reads Chinese newspaper.:think:

What's the difference whether I read Chinese newspaper or not?! If you are interested in knowing this, I could honestly tell you that I do not read Chinese newspaper at all. But good for these local newspaper which have the guts!:yes:

The "coarsening of male-female relationships" has nothing to do with feminism. The sexual revolution began with the introduction of the birth control pill which ultimately led to today's current mores and attitudes which you refer to as "coarsening. Marriage declined because people didn't respect the vows they took or their partners. Again, nothing to do with feminism. Prostitution has been around as long as men and women have existed, as were abortion.

None of these things are related to feminists ideas or ideals, but that that won't stop neanderthals for blaming feminists for every ill society faces.

I think we have every reason to say that these two examples you gave are, though it's not entirely, but they are related to feminism. It's a rather large scaled and complexy social issue and cannot be addressed easily and in short. It might not be the feminists' ideas and ideals. It certainly has lead to the consequenses which the feminists might not want to see and bear.

gkelly, No one in this thread has ever claimed that feminism was a bad move in the first place. All people have said was feminism has gone too far which has resulted in such and such...

Abortion is the most vulnerable point of conservatives, IMO. The rest, I think Spun Silver and Toni have good points.

 

[Buttercup]

I just told someone yesterday that I would stay out of this thread, as the subject strikes me as a bit too contentious for an online forum. I'll stay out of the main argument, but I do want to address this:

considering their source I think it's more their anti-appreciation for life... be it feminism, flawed education, etc...all kinda goes together IMO.

Feminism goes together with flawed education?! (head meets desk)

Toni, I am sorry for what your mother went through. Truly. It must have been very scary to get the information she did and then have no support for her choices and decisions. However, arguing that her doctor's action's were directly linked to feminism and represent the views of all feminists is just strange. There are many different types of feminism, and as Medusa noted, there are plenty of other possible explanations for the doctor's conduct and advice. In addition, telling a woman that her pregnancy is likely putting her life at risk may be an unwelcome truth, but not telling her that is condescending, makes it impossible for her to decide what to do, and strikes me as a form of malpractice. That said, if a woman nonetheless chooses to continue her pregnancy, not treating her is unethical.

I for one have no idea what my doctors' politics, views and values are. I don't particularly care, so long as I get good healthcare and can make informed decisions for myself. It seems like your mother was not given this opportunity by at least one of her doctors. FWIW, there is a more awareness now about culturally sensitive practice, and research related to working with specific cultural groups and members of different religions whose decision-making is greatly informed by their faith. I hope that the findings and recommendations from such research will trickle into the field, so that patients can get not just the best care possible but the kind of care that is truly suited to their needs.

 

[Olympia]

Very true, Buttercup. I know that in the old days, a doctor's word was law, not to be questioned by anyone. Now patients are encouraged to question their doctors. Also, since medical knowledge is more widely available, patients have access to information that can help them make more well informed decisions.

One thing that occurred to me the other day in light of this discussion is to consider advances in the rights of the disabled as another result of various civil rights movements. This is a huge step forward, though it's one that isn't as obvious to people who don't know anyone with a disability. Environmental improvements such as ramps and closed captioning have opened the world to people who are perfectly able to be independent but need some extra accessibility. It isn't just something that people do because they're nicer: in the United States, much of it is the result of a law, the Americans with Disabilities Act. (I'm sure there are similar laws in other countries, but I can only speak of the U.S.) This is the law that mandates wheelchair ramps, bathroom stalls that can accommodate a disabled person's equipment, Braille elevator numbers, and other accommodations in buildings. This law is the Title IX of the disabled. As with feminism, people today can't really understand the vastness of this change unless they lived through the years before it or have read about it.

Eunice Kennedy Shriver, the founder of the Special Olympics, once said something very sad but enlightening. She said that long ago, most people didn't know anyone with a mental disability unless they had a disabled relative. Children with extreme mental disabilities were kept at home or even institutionalized. This is the exception nowadays, not the rule. In those days, people with certain physical challenges such as blindness were considered unemployable or eligible for only menial jobs. They were dependent on their families or on charity for bare subsistence. Now, thanks to the ADA and to increasingly effective mechanical and electronic assistance, they have much more potential for varied careers. It turns out that it's surprisingly easy for disabled people to fit into many work environments with just a little accommodation.

I'm not saying that this is a direct result of the women's movement, but it is part of the general trend for people to seek rights for hitherto disregarded groups. Additionally, many of the most avid activists for the disabled are parents of disabled children, both mothers and fathers. In the old days, maybe the mothers would have hung back, because they weren't comfortable in public life. Not any more. People speak up now. And by and large, this is a good thing.

 

[let`s talk]

They will muddle through somehow. Especially the rich white heterosexual 30 year old male without special needs.

I am a believer too! As for added "rich", let's be fair: richness has no limits. If someone is rich, his race, sexuality, etc. doesn't count. He/she is just rich! Fact.
I was talking about some average individual in the stories that I see, read, hear in mass media, TV dramas, etc. The pattern is often like that: an afro-american got fired, a woman got fired, a gay got fired, ... They all have what to say: "oh, they said they fired me because I am lazy, but that's not true! They fired me because I am black! F== racists! Or- they fired me because I am a woman, I can get pregnant! Or- they fired me because I am a gay! F== bigots!" Etc. And only a heterosexual male has nothing esle to say except "they fired me because I was a bad employee".
Well, if you say it's not like that, so let it be. You live there, you know better.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

1. Of course, if a white straight male is fired due to discrimination, of course, he should be free to make that assertion and demonstrate facts to support that. That the mass media doesn't report it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but given the make-up of any post-racial Western society (which is of course a massive subject on it's own), I would need to learn the facts before I believe that. Of course, as a black male who's been threatened by white supremacists in my past, I'm more inclined to believe discrimination against the maginalized.

2. I'd be interested in hearing more about how feminism at it's fundamental (the promotion of women as equal beings to men and deserving of the same rights, privileges and freedoms) directly leads to all the negative consequences people are arguing. As a corollary, would one be willing to accept the premise that religion at it's most fundamental (a system of morality generally involving faith of some sort) directly leads to the whole host of negative consequences that we've seen throughout history that has been justified via religion?

 

[Tonichelle]

Speaking of genders, what I'd love to know is how the ISU and national federations would respond to an elite trans athlete who was an amazing competitor... how would they handle that? I'm sure they'd just be mortified. *rolls eyes* I'm not aware of any examples of this, but I would be very curious to hear people's opinions on this.

I guess I'm one of those "can't have your cake and eat it too" kind of people. When it comes to sports if it's a man dressed as a woman he still has the advantage of having a male body - ergo he has the "advantage" technically (however ladies have the advantage of having more flexibility etc)... I can't see a woman going as a man having any real advantage over the guys technically though... except, again, they could have better spins etc just due to their body type... again not bashing women here *oh my!* but body type plays a part in sport.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Is really being a lady against modern concepts and fast-paced life style, like Medusa said? I don't think so.

Why can't women be sweet, soft-spoken, humble, as well as capable? Why can't women have more self-respect, more dignity, and not so forward in friendships and personal relationships? Why can't women be more humble, and recognize and accept that there are somethings that men are more capable of and do better? Why can't women give men chances to let them be men which are men's pride? Something could be shameful are not shameful any more, such as legalizing prostitutions, one-night-stands, living together before marriage.

Seeing more teenage girls' forwarding manners towards the objects of their crushes is, even to me, a bit terrifying. Seeing and hearing more and more what I believe to be selfish and self-centric advices from so called experts given to new mothers and new parents, also seeing how so many parents ignore their children's needs in education, guidances, and health is heartaching.

I have neither time nor willing to spend long time to write a multi-page essay on the subject. But I do want to list my points here.