Figure Skating and Classical Ballet

[Tavi...]

Tbh I don't see much, if any variation in the lines and the general way the hands - fingers - arms are held between different programs, with any of the skaters that I mentioned.

All of them have what I would call very noticeable „bad“ arm and hand posture, that I find very distracting (legs too), no matter the program they skate or style they portray.

Thinking for instance of Daniel’s Joker or Muse vs. his Nureyev program, or comparing Jason’s Sinnerman or Hamilton to his SL or The Piano program (the latter programs surely aiming for a more lyrical and graceful look).


Which leads me to believe, that it’s not actually intentional or choreographed, but indeed what could be described as a bad habit, a way of holding and moving their limbs, that they have settled on in the formative years of their skating career and that is now part of their „default body language“, even if on the surface they’re performing choreography and moves that are specific to a given program

Which circles back to my initial point in my first post. A skater that has „balletic lines“ as their default and foundation, will look good no matter the style they choose to portray.

(Or what I would simply describe as aesthetically pleasing lines, I’m not actually a ballet fan, but it just so happens, that what I consider graceful looking, usually gets identified as balletic by those who know ballet well)

By the way, I don’t generally mind broken lines when they’re used for effect and with intent (after all, I do enjoy the occasional Benoit program). What I don’t enjoy are „bad“ lines that permeate the whole appearance of a skater on the ice.

How did the topic of “Balletic Posture vs Deep Knees: What Makes the Interpretation of Classical Ballet Themes Good?” morph into criticizing certain skaters as being “unwatchable” due to perceived faults of line and posture?

I can’t speak to Semenenko or Grassl, but for the record, Jason has never called himself a balletic skater and has only ever skated to classical ballet once, way back when he was a junior.

So if you - like a poster with a different username who made similar comments in the US men’s thread a couple of years ago - fail to find balletic lines in Jason’s skating, maybe the problem is in your expectations, not what he’s doing. And if you just don’t like his skating because you can’t get past those bent wrists and splayed fingers, all I can say is there’s no need to tear a skater down who’s not your favorite. It’s tiresome, and in this case, it’s also off topic.

 

[el henry]

Tbh I don't see much, if any variation in the lines and the general way the hands - fingers - arms are held between different programs, with any of the skaters that I mentioned.

All of them have what I would call very noticeable „bad“ arm and hand posture, that I find very distracting (legs too), no matter the program they skate or style they portray.

Thinking for instance of Daniel’s Joker or Muse vs. his Nureyev program, or comparing Jason’s Sinnerman or Hamilton to his SL or The Piano program (the latter programs surely aiming for a more lyrical and graceful look).


Which leads me to believe, that it’s not actually intentional or choreographed, but indeed what could be described as a bad habit, a way of holding and moving their limbs, that they have settled on in the formative years of their skating career and that is now part of their „default body language“, even if on the surface they’re performing choreography and moves that are specific to a given program

Which circles back to my initial point in my first post. A skater that has „balletic lines“ as their default and foundation, will look good no matter the style they choose to portray.

(Or what I would simply describe as aesthetically pleasing lines, I’m not actually a ballet fan, but it just so happens, that what I consider graceful looking, usually gets identified as balletic by those who know ballet well)

By the way, I don’t generally mind broken lines when they’re used for effect and with intent (after all, I do enjoy the occasional Benoit program). What I don’t enjoy are „bad“ lines that permeate the whole appearance of a skater on the ice.

Well, I really don't know what to say if you see no difference in the arm and hand posture of Jason and Daniel Grassl. I really don't know what to say. We are definitely not watching the same skaters

I am also confused. Are you saying that Sinnerman, of all programs, is an example of bad posture? Then we really aren't watching the same programs, particularly given how meticulously choreographed, down to the finger positions, Sinnerman is. Or are you saying you prefer the lines of Sinnerman to that of the Piano?

Comparing those two programs, for me, proves how much Jason varies his body movements and postures depending on the program, and has no "default". So I would need specific examples of exactly where there is a similarity, because I sure don't see it.

ETA: I apologize for the off topic in the conversation. I do not say that Jason has classic ballet lines, as it has been forever since he has skated a classic ballet program. Rohene approaches choreo a little differently than many.

 

[eppen]

This has been an interesting read!

I have also wondered about the development of skating vocabulary, but so far it seems that this has not really been studied. gkelly's post above shows some glimpses into the thinking and principles pre-1960s. The stiff upper body and stationary arms not in general lifted above the shoulder line started to get abandoned in the 1960s especially in the women's category, but it is difficult to trace how it got more common and who were the skaters who changed this.

Janet Lynn's success and popularity in the late 1960s and 1970s was not only based on how good she was, but also on how different she was compared to most other skaters of her time. The same applies to John Curry just slightly later.

But that classical ballet ideals were chosen is perhaps part of the culture of the era - going for ballroom or pop dance styles of the era would probably have not been as credible choices as classical ballet was. This despite popularity of musicals with jazz dance and tap numbers, Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly, Ginger Rogers and many other dancers in popular culture. Skating was also used in not so very balletic show numbers outside competition. Music choices could also be one thing - strictly classical until very late 1960s when especially the East German skaters started to use pop styles (which is kind of funny thinking of the cultural and ideological associations of both the music and the skaters).

E

 

[Arigato]

"I’m not a skater. I’m a ballet dancer but can I just say Yuzuru Hanyu’s ARMS ARE SO BEAUTIFUL! Perfect lines from a ballet perspective. Perfect hands too!"



But I read his arms are made of Pasta ai Quattro Formaggi. Maybe I should give Baryshnikov a ring-a-ding-ding and ask what he thinks.

 

[Anna K.]

Sadly, some off-topic discussions have been around lately
Regarding that, may I make a little statement before Site Admins do?
I started this thread with a hope for better understanding of classical ballet, figure skating, and the respective aesthetic criteria. It was never meant to imply that skaters who are not "balletic" are "bad" in any way.
We are humans, we have our preferences, and sometimes these preferences are not compatible. Although I asked you to share them (and I am happy that you do), would you, please, save extended discussions about particular skaters/their programs for the relevant threads? In this thread, let's focus on programs/skaters that are relevant to the above topic and/or serve as examples for better insight and understanding of it
Thank you!

 

[Alex Fedorov]

Sadly, some off-topic discussions have been around lately
Regarding that, may I make a little statement before Site Admins do?
I started this thread with a hope for better understanding of classical ballet, figure skating, and the respective aesthetic criteria. It was never meant to imply that skaters who are not "balletic" are "bad" in any way.
We are humans, we have our preferences, and sometimes these preferences are not compatible. Although I asked you to share them (and I am happy that you do), would you, please, save extended discussions about particular skaters/their programs for the relevant threads? In this thread, let's focus on programs/skaters that are relevant to the above topic and/or serve as examples for better insight and understanding of it
Thank you!

the point is that it is not easy to find "clean" examples. Here is Alexey Urmanov's performance at the 1995 European Championships:



Ballet music is used and it is quite obvious that Alexei tries to move the way ballet dancers do. For example, a moment at 3:25 am onwards. But does this work as a plus? Somehow I'm not sure. Well, that not everything is OK in choreography is a separate question.

Plushenko's performance in Salt Lake City is also remembered. There were technical errors, but I wanted to say something else. There were no pronounced ballet movements, but there was clearly a posture, and this gave his performance additional brightness.

 

[gkelly]

Since modern dance has been mentioned a few times in this thread, I wonder whether it would be appropriate to expand that discussion here, or to start a separate thread about influence of modern dance on figure skating.


It might also be interesting to look at skating's use of martial arts moves and stylings, but that would definitely need a separate thread.

 

[LutzDance]

Since pantomime has been mentioned: you know that pantomime is an integral part of classical ballet, do you?

Since you mentioned it, I gotta share this mime favorite video of mine https://youtu.be/LXFDfD3VQ-w In seriousness though, in both this video and the Swan Lake one, you can see miming is done in a specific manner in ballet, where a dancer’s arms travel the maximum distance from the body to create a sweeping, theatrical effect. And this is opposite to the philosophy of Misha’s Nutcracker choreography, which primary takes effect from the elbows or even wrists down rather than originate from the core of the body, leading me to recognize it as unballetic miming. (As I said earlier, I find the overall carriage of Misha mostly balletic, just not in this particular vehicle that’s the Nutcracker.)

On this note, I personally don’t mind my favorite skaters being used as negative case studies under current discussion as long as it’s done from a purely technical perspective. Anna is my favorite Eteri girl and Misha my favorite Russian man, and I actually applaud a previous post where Anna’s spiral is dissected to show how it goes against balletic principles, because she serves as an illustrative visual example and it could be informative for people not so familiar with ballet to know the specific things a ballet fan might object to. Along the same line Daniil G also makes Anna arch her back excessively which I also find unballetic. Also since it’s been brought up I have to say I also find the discontinuous wrist lines and tense fingers of skaters like Jason and Kamila (who has the additional unballetic characteristic of not pointing her toes) distracting for my ballet-conditioned eyes, but that doesn’t mean one can’t enjoy their movements, only that I’d find choreography that places less emphasis on classical lines and more on angular, spiky moves suit them better. After all I still like Anna and Misha because their appeals override this and that shortcoming in either themselves or their packaging.

 

[sworddance21]

It's Christmas approaching rapidly; for many people, this is the time of the year to remember that classical ballet, namely The Nutcracker, exists. So, how about a little talk about classical ballet themes on ice? What makes it good for you? What makes it good for judges?

And what do you think about the above dilemma: balletic posture vs deep knees?

I'm probably guilty of helping to move this thread off topic. My bad for jumping in later in the thread and not really reading the original post. So - in answer to your question, OP, I will say that posture is the key. If the plan is to have a ballet program - not creating choreo to classical music, but really having a ballet themed program, such as the Nutcracker on ice, then I think the proper ballet carriage is key. One can have ballet posture and the characteristic lift in the body while in a deep knee bend. The two shouldn't be mutually exclusive. I'm team posture.

 

[Anna K.]

Since you mentioned it, I gotta share this mime favorite video of mine https://youtu.be/LXFDfD3VQ-w In seriousness though, in both this video and the Swan Lake one, you can see miming is done in a specific manner in ballet, where a dancer’s arms travel the maximum distance from the body to create a sweeping, theatrical effect. And this is opposite to the philosophy of Misha’s Nutcracker choreography, which primary takes effect from the elbows or even wrists down rather than originate from the core of the body, leading me to recognize it as unballetic miming. (As I said earlier, I find the overall carriage of Misha mostly balletic, just not in this particular vehicle that’s the Nutcracker.)

Thank you for sharing the mime video link, it's awesome! And I have to thank you for bringing up pantomime aspect as well.
In Misha's case though I'd refer to cases of classical ballet where, when the character demands it, namely when the character is a doll like Nutcracker or mechanical dolls in Coppelia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F0lo3Izaog , "wooden" elbows are there and just as balletic as everything else. Since Nutcracker's story is one about a doll turning into a prince and back, I think Misha's choreography did a decent job here. But, of course, everyone is free to have their own opinion (especially if that "one" brings up well thought arguments like you do).

More Coppelia pantomime just for fun (I feel obliged to post a funny pantomime video, too ):

 

[Anna K.]

the point is that it is not easy to find "clean" examples. Here is Alexey Urmanov's performance at the 1995 European Championships:



Ballet music is used and it is quite obvious that Alexei tries to move the way ballet dancers do. For example, a moment at 3:25 am onwards. But does this work as a plus? Somehow I'm not sure. Well, that not everything is OK in choreography is a separate question.

Plushenko's performance in Salt Lake City is also remembered. There were technical errors, but I wanted to say something else. There were no pronounced ballet movements, but there was clearly a posture, and this gave his performance additional brightness.

I think this example is absolutely relevant. Like it was said many times in this thread, ballet can't be brought to figure skating 1=1, there is always a tweak in one or another way. I believe this is what makes this topic interesting.

Since modern dance has been mentioned a few times in this thread, I wonder whether it would be appropriate to expand that discussion here, or to start a separate thread about influence of modern dance on figure skating.


It might also be interesting to look at skating's use of martial arts moves and stylings, but that would definitely need a separate thread.

Yes, modern dance definitely deserves an own thread! There are many layers, a lot of material to cover: ballroom dance, street dance, dance theater, modern ballet. Except the variations of modern ballet that are developed directly from classical ballet; these would be rather relevant to this thread because here it is impossible to draw the line between "classic", "neoclassic" and "modern". There is often a situation when same choreography may be attributed to any of these categories.by different authors.

 

[Arigato]

Sadly, some off-topic discussions have been around lately
Regarding that, may I make a little statement before Site Admins do?
I started this thread with a hope for better understanding of classical ballet, figure skating, and the respective aesthetic criteria. It was never meant to imply that skaters who are not "balletic" are "bad" in any way.
We are humans, we have our preferences, and sometimes these preferences are not compatible. Although I asked you to share them (and I am happy that you do), would you, please, save extended discussions about particular skaters/their programs for the relevant threads? In this thread, let's focus on programs/skaters that are relevant to the above topic and/or serve as examples for better insight and understanding of it
Thank you!

Since classical ballet is the topic, I will take issue with your use of the words "aesthetic criteria" since using one's arms in ballet is not to simply look "pretty" to a few people. There must be hundreds—if not thousands—of videos to watch that will teach you that the arms are used to propel the body up into the air. That is true not only in ballet, but also in skating. Baryshnikov could do things that others could not match because of his extaordinary athleticism, not because he pointed a certain finger. He could do innovative steps and jumps not only in number, but quality.

As for skaters, I have many I watch and making comments about a skater in no way should be construed as a personal insult, but rather an observation - kind of like Nathan's arms waving in the air like he's running from a burning building at times which is certainly different than, say, Katarina Witt who could be exceptional at telling a story with an ethereal quality and flowing movement, even if her jumps suffered. I brought up storytelling, the quality of being ethereal, and flowing movement since it is part of classical ballet. How many skaters tell a story? If you want to actually focus on classical ballet, by all means, do it. But do it all the way. Moonwalking to Michael Jackson's Smooth Criminal on ice isn't exactly my idea of hitting a bullet point in classical ballet but telling the story of Romeo and Juliet in full character certainly is.

There is far more to classical ballet than "aesthetic criteria."

 

[gkelly]

What if the story you want to tell is about running from a burning building?

Would that look different if portrayed by a ballet dancer or actor or figure skater?

 

[Anna K.]

There is far more to classical ballet than "aesthetic criteria."

Agree. Like I somehow said a few posts earlier, classical ballet is a culture that includes a lot and I'm glad that there are more and more aspects coming up in this thread. In fact, I've been thinking about modifying the title slightly. So, if you or anyone have any ideas, please share!

What if the story you want to tell is about running from a burning building?

Would that look different if portrayed by a ballet dancer or actor or figure skater?

Well, running from a burning building would be more difficult for a skater with skates on

 

[Arigato]

Well, I really don't know what to say if you see no difference in the arm and hand posture of Jason and Daniel Grassl. I really don't know what to say. We are definitely not watching the same skaters [...]

I just watched a Daniel SP and a Jason SP. I see no difference. They both have 5 fingers on each hand. But seriously, their hand and arm posture are not similar. They're different skating styles from head to toe as I would certainly expect to be, lest I be watching ice bots rather than real people skating.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Yuzuru Hanyu used to be a bit noodly as a Junior (Petr Gumennik too, and a number of ballet dancers before they graduate, usually around 18, this is why I tend to view a certain type of noodliness as auspicious) but he has now a fine back mastery worthy of Vaganova School and I'm weighing my words. His last published skates were last August, White Legend and Hana ni Nare for 24hTV, did you watch them? It's hard to find whole because of copyright issues so here's White Legend in two parts.

https://twitter.com/yuzu1207_s/status/1429314599656906756?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1429314599656906756%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

https://twitter.com/yuzu1207_s/status/1429714620273496066

But in fact his back has long been one of my wonders. It also allows him to make "speak" even his elements (jumps, spins in addition to usual step sequences and choreo sequences), every muscle's position is carefully determined to express the idea of the moment.

I think it's important to notice that a balletic back (and in my uninformed opinion, a good figure skater's back), while strong has to be supple, not stiff.

Agrippina Vaganova "The Vaganova Method" - Danza Ballet

The VAGANOVA METHOD is a classical ballet teaching tool that was developed by Agrippina Vaganova. She created an improved syllabus for teaching the art of classical ballet. Its origins are derived from the teaching methods of the instructors of the Imperial Ballet School. In 1948, Vaganova...

www.danzaballet.com

Maybe for hockey too?

SOVIET HOCKEY’S SECRET WEAPON — The Caviar Diplomat

The Bolshoi Theater in Moscow (pictured above) is an embodiment of the ballet corps it houses. A Neoclassical structure that holds its own among Moscow’s magnificent landmarks, the gilded interiors and lush velvet soften a turbulent history that has shaped the theater’s unmistakable edifice over tim

www.thecaviardiplomat.com

Like a pianist's hand by the way.

Yes, I kept track of him over the years and he definitely became more controlled from around the mid-2010s onward (after a couple of years in Canada/physically maturing further). Personally I would describe Yuzuru's movement style and programme choices as more modern/contemporary (except the Chopin SP which was choreographed in a balletic way). Those exhibition programmes in particular have more of a lyrical dance influence.

Ballet does require back movement but it's quite different from the torso contractions you find in stuff like Graham and other modern techniques. Ashton ballets are known for side-to-side lilting of the torso, and Bournonville has distinctive shoulder/head epaulement, but classical ballet generally has more spinal extension than flexion and the shoulderblades stay anchored down and flat. In fact Vaganova in particular has a more strictly prescribed range of spinal motion; the traditional Russian forward cambre is a pure hip hinge, whereas in other styles (e.g. RAD) it's a hinge-forward with roll-up recovery (which gets kinda confusing sometimes when substitute teachers take class...)

'Noodly' might be considered a pejorative by some, maybe a more neutral term is 'loose/free'. So I don't think Yuzuru utilises classical ballet vocabulary in the way he moves his shoulders and head, but it's his own style of artistic expression, nothing bad about that.

 

[Anna K.]

The thread name is now officially changed. I hope you'll still enjoy it and keep on posting

 

[Anna K.]

Yes, I kept track of him over the years and he definitely became more controlled from around the mid-2010s onward (after a couple of years in Canada/physically maturing further). Personally I would describe Yuzuru's movement style and programme choices as more modern/contemporary (except the Chopin SP which was choreographed in a balletic way). Those exhibition programmes in particular have more of a lyrical dance influence.

Ballet does require back movement but it's quite different from the torso contractions you find in stuff like Graham and other modern techniques. Ashton ballets are known for side-to-side lilting of the torso, and Bournonville has distinctive shoulder/head epaulement, but classical ballet generally has more spinal extension than flexion and the shoulderblades stay anchored down and flat. In fact Vaganova in particular has a more strictly prescribed range of spinal motion; the traditional Russian forward cambre is a pure hip hinge, whereas in other styles (e.g. RAD) it's a hinge-forward with roll-up recovery (which gets kinda confusing sometimes when substitute teachers take class...)

'Noodly' might be considered a pejorative by some, maybe a more neutral term is 'loose/free'. So I don't think Yuzuru utilises classical ballet vocabulary in the way he moves his shoulders and head, but it's his own style of artistic expression, nothing bad about that.

Freely, that's the word! He moves freely. I've been thinking about it when watching him: he looks so relaxed. Even when he does a classical ballet gesture, it rather looks like an organic gesture of his, not a pose/ballet reference. And you just explained the dance-technical side of this impression.

Now, I'm curious if he will keep this style and pass it over when he works as a coach one day. In that case, I'm expecting this discussion to re-emerge in Figure Skating and Modern Dance thread!

I also want to note that, despite of his relaxed style, his physique is very ballet-friendly. Actually, it is thanks to his relaxed style that he can achieve the impression of airiness of a flying petal (which is often considered the aesthetic aim of classical ballet), quote:

Yuzuru can very well emulate a cherry bloom taken in the wind, flying in it, falling, whirling, getting taken up again, losing its petals... with the speed mimicking the wind.

This is somehow the aim of part of ballet, and of many types of dances in the world.

And he can definitely tell a classical ballet story on ice. For me, he officially belongs to the "swan club". He had a Swan Lake program in 2010 that was clearly Urmanov-inspired (see the link a few posts above):

 

[rugbyfan]

I feel like I have absolutely no knowledge with which to contribute to this, but I wondered if anyone wanted to comment on Emmanuel Sandhu? I know he has done the nutcracker for instance as a professional, but it was more that I was listening to a PJ Kwong podcast on him in which he talked a LOT about his ballet training. He did not tend to skate to specifically ballet music when he was skating competitively, but I felt like his ballet training could be seen everywhere. I would love if anyone with more knowledge of ballet could give an opinion?

 

[lesnar001]

Question for those who much more knowledgeable than me about ballet....

I haven't seen Oksana Baiul referenced yet in this discussion. I remember her doing a program (maybe an exhibition) to "The Swan". I thought she looked quite balletic in her movements. Would she qualify as a "balletic skater", or was it just to my untrained eye?

Also, I remember Yukari Nakano doing a SP in the late 2000's to "Giselle" where part of the footwork sequence was definitely from the ballet. I wouldn't qualify her as "balletic" (although I thought she was very artistic), but that part of the program was.

Thanks.