Figure Skating and Classical Ballet | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Figure Skating and Classical Ballet

Jadeice

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 3, 2021
I think in general, there are more ice dancers capable of balletic movement than singles skaters, male or female. (Not all ice dancers though, and not that balletic movement makes one necessarily a superior skater).

Maybe not a superior skater, but for me personally, those who adhere to those balletic principles that LutzDance aptly described, or even just incorporate certain aspects of it, will almost always look the most aesthetically pleasing to my eyes.

And this is true even when they’re not skating to a ballet music piece or doing ballet inspired choreography. It can be even quite the contrary.

Because ideally it will inform all of their movement no matter the style, serve as a sort of foundation and be apparent in the shapes their body creates and their lines.
Things like a bent skating and/or free leg during footwork or spins, lines broken at the wrist or fingers (think of many of the Russian girls, Jason Brown, Daniel Grassl, Evgeni Semenenko…), for me all of those really ruin the overall look of a skater, even when they’re not aiming to skate in a balletic way specifically.
 
Last edited:

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
I am finding it very interesting to read what does and does not constitute ballet for so many posters.

Personally, posture is number one for me, for a skate rooted in traditional ballet. Despite Uncle Dick saying time and time again, point your toes young lady! So the incredible posture of John Curry is what attracts me.

Of course, that is only for skates rooted in classical ballet, for other skates, I care most whether the skater is incorporating elements related to the music. For example, Jason's Sinnerman, which incorporates so many movements related to Alvin Ailey Dance Theatre (and on which I needed to educate myself).

And I'm not looking for ballet moves in an Elvis routine, for example. ;)
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Some ballet programs by 1990s ladies:


And a pro program:
 

Anna K.

Medalist
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Country
Latvia
Maybe not a superior skater, but for me personally, those who adhere to those balletic principles that LutzDance aptly described, or even just incorporate certain aspects of it, will almost always look the most aesthetically pleasing to my eyes.

And this is true even when they’re not skating to a ballet music piece or doing ballet inspired choreography. It can be even quite the contrary.

Because ideally it will inform all of their movement no matter the style, serve as sort of foundation and be apparent in the shapes their body creates and their lines.
Things like a bent skating and/or free leg during footwork or spins, lines broken at the wrist or fingers (think of many of the Russian girls, Jason Brown, Daniel Grassl, Evgeni Semenenko…), for me all of those really ruin the overall look of a skater, even when they’re not aiming to skate in a balletic way specifically.
I think that you made a worthy comment. While I can't say that I share your view (I don't mind broken lines tbh), I believe that some judges do. Well, I suspect that quite a number of judges are looking for "trained", "aesthetic" ballet-based movements and body lines when they award their PCS regardless the program. Comments like your comment may seem meticulous but in fact shed a light on issues when certain skaters get lower PCS (of course, nobody would underscore Jason Brown or leading Russian Ladies who have established authority because of their strong sides, but Daniel Grassl...). So thank you very much for posting!
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
I think that you made a worthy comment. While I can't say that I share your view (I don't mind broken lines tbh), I believe that some judges do. Well, I suspect that quite a number of judges are looking for "trained", "aesthetic" ballet-based movements and body lines when they award their PCS regardless the program. Comments like your comment may seem meticulous but in fact shed a light on issues when certain skaters get lower PCS (of course, nobody would underscore Jason Brown or leading Russian Ladies who have established authority because of their strong sides, but Daniel Grassl...). So thank you very much for posting!


For me, to be honest, the thoughts are a little different: I think the skaters mentioned, Jason, Daniel, and Evgeni (I don't know enough about the Russian ladies to say) are very different skaters and have very different reasons for their lines.

Jason actually has quite decent posture. Not John Curry, but who is?:biggrin: He often holds his hands and arms splayed or at an angle to effect, but it is (to me) obviously choreographed, and he is deliberately posing that way, so there is no need to mark down.

Evgeni's posture for choreo and steps is not bad, but that jump technique is, well, different. I don't know if the half bend on landing those jumps affects how the judges score the remainder of the program or not.

Daniel is just some sort of flexible wonder. I loooove his spins (then again, I adore a good broken leg sit spin) but the remainder of his posture does not appear held for effect, as Jason's is, but is just Daniel. I could be wrong but that's what it looks like.

Of course, only Daniel is skating to classical ballet, although I suppose Sinnerman could be called modern ballet. It is certainly modern dance. :)
 

Flying Feijoa

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Country
New-Zealand
lines broken at the wrist or fingers (think of many of the Russian girls, Jason Brown, Daniel Grassl, Evgeni Semenenko…)
This is why I'm one of those weird people who actually prefer Slaughter on 10th Avenue over Schindler's List for Jason 😅 Better to show off his aptitude for quick tempo changes and spiky modern choreo (although I get that he connects more to SL emotionally).

As el henry mentioned, Daniel is quite a different case... he has noodly posture like Yuzuru (but worse skating skills). I'm too distracted by the hunchback to notice the arms...

Introduction of extensive ballet training into pair skating:
Lovely! I feel like the Protopopovs were the prototype for all elegant Russian pairs...
 

LutzDance

On the Ice
Joined
May 9, 2019
My understanding is that at least one reason turnout is so fundamental to ballet technique is that the artform was developed to be presented on a proscenium stage -- to emphasize positions that keep the dancer open to the audience who are mostly all watching from approximately the same fixed angle.

Whereas skating is more typically performed in arenas, in an "in the round" configuration with spectators on all sides. Therefore, the way to keep the skater open to all audience members is to keep curving around in all directions.

Of course, many turned-out positions can look beautiful, especially to eyes conditioned by ballet. But many skating moves rely technically on more turned-in positions, so ideally skaters can make those look beautiful as well.
This is an interesting perspective. This made me think that while skating is viewed in arenas, by virtue of having these curves going in all directions what is presented to a skating audience at any given seat is not entirely dissimilar to the view of a ballet audience when a dancer performs certain steps en manège. You can still sort of see a skater's free leg position even though they are not facing you. Moreover, I always find that turnout accentuates the shape of the curves that a skater is traveling on by virtue of its ability to enhance projection, so in a way turnout and curves work synergistically. I do wonder, what skating moves rely on more turned-in positions? I don't remember ever seeing a skater holding a turned-in position intentionally, the way many hold turned-out positions. It's always either a transitional moment that happens because of the mechanics of skating or just sloppiness.

By the way, thank you for sharing the videos. I adore the Protopopovs and Katia's Giselle (meant to give this one a mention but it slipped my mind) as well.

Which competition would you recommend to watch?
I love his performances from 2016 Finlandia, 2017 US Nats, 4CC, and WTT, but if I have to pick one I'd probably go with WTT.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG6611jyyFA

And this gave me an excuse to watch it again...It's interesting that for the step sequence they used music from the coda of the pas de deux, which is usually reserved for highly technical bravura stuff (in this case the fouettés), but choreographed it in a way that's more quicksilver than flashy or overtly crowd-pleasing, more reminiscent of a petit allegro as I previously mentioned.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
This is an interesting perspective. This made me think that while skating is viewed in arenas, by virtue of having these curves going in all directions what is presented to a skating audience at any given seat is not entirely dissimilar to the view of a ballet audience when a dancer performs certain steps en manège. You can still sort of see a skater's free leg position even though they are not facing you. Moreover, I always find that turnout accentuates the shape of the curves that a skater is traveling on by virtue of its ability to enhance projection, so in a way turnout and curves work synergistically. I do wonder, what skating moves rely on more turned-in positions? I don't remember ever seeing a skater holding a turned-in position intentionally, the way many hold turned-out positions. It's always either a transitional moment that happens because of the mechanics of skating or just sloppiness.

Not so much for sustained positions in spins and long glides, although there are variations on this position
and

A number steps and turns require turned-in hips to execute -- so I don't know that I would consider these transitional positions so much as part of the technique for these moves, even though the positions are not held and highlighted:


Another 90s lady I forgot to include in the earlier post:
 
Last edited:

DizzyFrenchie

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
This is why I'm one of those weird people who actually prefer Slaughter on 10th Avenue over Schindler's List for Jason 😅 Better to show off his aptitude for quick tempo changes and spiky modern choreo (although I get that he connects more to SL emotionally).

As el henry mentioned, Daniel is quite a different case... he has noodly posture like Yuzuru (but worse skating skills). I'm too distracted by the hunchback to notice the arms...


Lovely! I feel like the Protopopovs were the prototype for all elegant Russian pairs...
Yuzuru Hanyu used to be a bit noodly as a Junior (Petr Gumennik too, and a number of ballet dancers before they graduate, usually around 18, this is why I tend to view a certain type of noodliness as auspicious) but he has now a fine back mastery worthy of Vaganova School and I'm weighing my words. His last published skates were last August, White Legend and Hana ni Nare for 24hTV, did you watch them? It's hard to find whole because of copyright issues so here's White Legend in two parts.
But in fact his back has long been one of my wonders. It also allows him to make "speak" even his elements (jumps, spins in addition to usual step sequences and choreo sequences), every muscle's position is carefully determined to express the idea of the moment.

I think it's important to notice that a balletic back (and in my uninformed opinion, a good figure skater's back), while strong has to be supple, not stiff.
Maybe for hockey too?
Like a pianist's hand by the way.
 

Anna K.

Medalist
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Country
Latvia
I am finding it very interesting to read what does and does not constitute ballet for so many posters.
So do I! :love: There was a moment when I felt like, wait, some of this must be off-topic. Then I read the title again and realized it was all fine because concepts "interpretation" and "classical ballet themes" legitimately make this topic rather wide. I didn't fully realize it when I started it but I like it :rock: Classical ballet is not just a musical theme or a show. Classical ballet is a culture and figure skating is a culture as well. Subsequently, there is a broad area of interchange between these cultures. And traveling in this area is truly exciting for me.

For me, to be honest, the thoughts are a little different: I think the skaters mentioned, Jason, Daniel, and Evgeni (I don't know enough about the Russian ladies to say) are very different skaters and have very different reasons for their lines.
Thank you for your insight! Sure they have different reasons for their lines. So do Russian girls; earlier in this thread we had a detailed comparison of Kostornaia and Shcherbakova.

Besides, regarding that, I have a question to figure skating historians here; I've been wondering about it quite a while. Apart from our spectator perspective and aesthetic preferences, when did figure skating judges start considering body lines as an important factor in performance? Was it influenced by ballet? If not, where does it come from?
 

Alex Fedorov

Medalist
Joined
Nov 12, 2021
Country
Russia
Besides, regarding that, I have a question to figure skating historians here; I've been wondering about it quite a while. Apart from our spectator perspective and aesthetic preferences, when did figure skating judges start considering body lines as an important factor in performance? Was it influenced by ballet? If not, where does it come from?
relatively recently, compulsory figures were of great importance in figure skating. For example, my mother's favorite skater Vladimir Kotin never became the European champion (he became the second four times) only because he invariably lost in this part of the competition.

I'm not a ballet historian, but as far as I know, the connection between ballet and figure skating is generally not so undeniable. On the one hand, figure skating is much older, on the other, ballet has changed many times. Even at the beginning of the twentieth century, it was quite far from modern. For example, the famous Matilda Kshesinskaya weighed 53 kilograms with a height of 150 centimeters - today it is simply impossible to imagine such a prima ballerina.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Besides, regarding that, I have a question to figure skating historians here; I've been wondering about it quite a while. Apart from our spectator perspective and aesthetic preferences, when did figure skating judges start considering body lines as an important factor in performance? Was it influenced by ballet? If not, where does it come from?
From what I gather, skating judges always (since the late 1800s, when competitions and judging became a thing) considered carriage and body line as important, but what they considered "good" carriage and line was (and is) not necessarily the same as what the ballet world considers good.

That was true even earlier: e.g., https://www.nga.gov/collection/art-object-page.39729.html

Mainly I think there was an early preference for skating movement to look elegant and effortless, which would not encourage extreme extension.

Some early-to-mid-20th century women, not all in competition:

I'd say it was more with the Protopopovs and then Peggy Fleming in the 1960s that more of a ballet aesthetic started to appear in freeskating.
At that time it was still considered "unmanly" in many skating quarters for men to raise their arms above the waist.
 
Last edited:

sworddance21

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
I am finding it very interesting to read what does and does not constitute ballet for so many posters.

Personally, posture is number one for me, for a skate rooted in traditional ballet. Despite Uncle Dick saying time and time again, point your toes young lady! So the incredible posture of John Curry is what attracts me.

Of course, that is only for skates rooted in classical ballet, for other skates, I care most whether the skater is incorporating elements related to the music. For example, Jason's Sinnerman, which incorporates so many movements related to Alvin Ailey Dance Theatre (and on which I needed to educate myself).

And I'm not looking for ballet moves in an Elvis routine, for example. ;)
We agree again!

I think it is completely possible to skate (or dance) to "ballet' music without using ballet steps or being "balletic". I often love the juxtaposition of hip hop or jazz choreography to classical music. But in regard to what makes a balletic program work on the ice, for me it is all about the about posture/carriage, as well as line and port de bras Ballet requires a lift in the body - a sense that the dancer is being propelled up and forward by an invisible hand just behind the heart. There is a "pulled up" feeling - even if the knees are deeply in plie. Not a lot of movement off the center axis. Also - carriage of the arms is huge for me. There must be a lift from the triceps and the arms must move from the back, not the shoulder. There is also a sense of lots of vibrating energy that is very compressed and controlled.

Kolyada very much strikes me as the most "balletic" of the skaters today. Jason can do that style, but he strikes me much more as a modern dancer on the ice. His posture, line, and port de bras are absolutely impeccable, but there is also something more grounded. A modern dancers energy drives from the core (it's hard for me to articulate - easier to show) and is freer than a "ballet' energy. You get the sense that the vibrating molecules have more space to play in. (LOL - I have no idea if I'm making any sense at all). Also - modern/contemporary dance has much more to do with taking the body off center. Jason does that.
 

Jadeice

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 3, 2021
For me, to be honest, the thoughts are a little different: I think the skaters mentioned, Jason, Daniel, and Evgeni (I don't know enough about the Russian ladies to say) are very different skaters and have very different reasons for their lines.

Jason actually has quite decent posture. Not John Curry, but who is?:biggrin: He often holds his hands and arms splayed or at an angle to effect, but it is (to me) obviously choreographed, and he is deliberately posing that way, so there is no need to mark down.

Evgeni's posture for choreo and steps is not bad, but that jump technique is, well, different. I don't know if the half bend on landing those jumps affects how the judges score the remainder of the program or not.

Daniel is just some sort of flexible wonder. I loooove his spins (then again, I adore a good broken leg sit spin) but the remainder of his posture does not appear held for effect, as Jason's is, but is just Daniel. I could be wrong but that's what it looks like.

Of course, only Daniel is skating to classical ballet, although I suppose Sinnerman could be called modern ballet. It is certainly modern dance. :)

This is why I'm one of those weird people who actually prefer Slaughter on 10th Avenue over Schindler's List for Jason 😅 Better to show off his aptitude for quick tempo changes and spiky modern choreo (although I get that he connects more to SL emotionally).

As el henry mentioned, Daniel is quite a different case... he has noodly posture like Yuzuru (but worse skating skills). I'm too distracted by the hunchback to notice the arms...

Tbh I don't see much, if any variation in the lines and the general way the hands - fingers - arms are held between different programs, with any of the skaters that I mentioned.

All of them have what I would call very noticeable „bad“ arm and hand posture, that I find very distracting (legs too), no matter the program they skate or style they portray.

Thinking for instance of Daniel’s Joker or Muse vs. his Nureyev program, or comparing Jason’s Sinnerman or Hamilton to his SL or The Piano program (the latter programs surely aiming for a more lyrical and graceful look).


Which leads me to believe, that it’s not actually intentional or choreographed, but indeed what could be described as a bad habit, a way of holding and moving their limbs, that they have settled on in the formative years of their skating career and that is now part of their „default body language“, even if on the surface they’re performing choreography and moves that are specific to a given program

Which circles back to my initial point in my first post. A skater that has „balletic lines“ as their default and foundation, will look good no matter the style they choose to portray.

(Or what I would simply describe as aesthetically pleasing lines, I’m not actually a ballet fan, but it just so happens, that what I consider graceful looking, usually gets identified as balletic by those who know ballet well)

By the way, I don’t generally mind broken lines when they’re used for effect and with intent (after all, I do enjoy the occasional Benoit program). What I don’t enjoy are „bad“ lines that permeate the whole appearance of a skater on the ice.
 

Jadeice

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 3, 2021
Mikhail Kolyada has good leg lines and moves in an organic manner, but I really find the choreography of this Nutcracker SP to be more pantomime than ballet.
Funny you should say that, because I have to admit, I usually watch his Nutcracker SP not for his portrayal of ballet, but for giggles. Because the choreo looks silly to me, but it is also weirdly entertaining (which is trademark Misha for me).
 

Anna K.

Medalist
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Country
Latvia
Since pantomime has been mentioned: you know that pantomime is an integral part of classical ballet, do you?
For those who don't, I'd like to share this lovely video where the pantomime language of SWAN LAKE is explained. This would be my addition of Swan Lake case study that is already going on in this thread ;)




I somehow got a feeling that figure skating program choreographers use ballet pantomime gestures more often than ballet music :)
 

sworddance21

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Since pantomime has been mentioned: you know that pantomime is an integral part of classical ballet, do you?
For those who don't, I'd like to share this lovely video where the pantomime language of SWAN LAKE is explained. This would be my addition of Swan Lake case study that is already going on in this thread ;)




I somehow got a feeling that figure skating program choreographers use ballet pantomime gestures more often than ballet music :)

Love this video. I actually was about to reply to one of the earlier posts that pantomime is an integral part of old school ballets.
 
Top