Flip or Lutz? Which is REALLY harder?

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think the problem with multi-rotational jumps in high pressure competition is different from preferences for different edges. The big problem is that skaters have to learn the jumps too young before they can control their edges (either on one foot or in turns)

The big problem with the flutz is that the only way young skaters know how to get onto an edge is to learn their upper bodies and they have no idea of how to hold an edge when their upper body has to be doing something else (like preparing for rotation in the other direction).
The problem with the flip is that they can't control the turn at the speed necessary to do a multi-rotational jump and end up doing (in effect) a rocker instead of a three turn (or Choctaw instead of Mohawk) or they're just on flats the whole time.

I would assume that a lack of figures is a big contributing factor (since figures are the best way to train certain skills related to holding an edge and making clean turns). But this is a hurry up world and I wouldn't be surprised if the ISU backtracks on edge calls and just starts defining jumps by approach rather than take off edge. The audiences love the little jumping beans and don't want them penalized for not being able to do things they've never been trained to or penalized for things the audience can't see (or plain doesn't care about).

Well spoken. I believe my prolem with this topic was about the matter of school figures. Skaters of today do not seem to value these exercises as a means of improving their edges, or they think it is too time consuming to bother.

Joe

 

[Mafke]

I believe my prolem with this topic was about the matter of school figures. Skaters of today do not seem to value these exercises as a means of improving their edges, or they think it is too time consuming to bother.

Take heart, I read on another board that apparently the Japanese fed wants its skaters to strart training figures to improve edge control and quality of turns.
Figures also seem like just the kind of effort intensive exercise requiring maniacal levels of concentration that the Japanese love to apply to any learning/apprentice system.

 

[McWicked]

Take heart, I read on another board that apparently the Japanese fed wants its skaters to strart training figures to improve edge control and quality of turns.
Figures also seem like just the kind of effort intensive exercise requiring maniacal levels of concentration that the Japanese love to apply to any learning/apprentice system.

They play to win, no doubt.

 

[antmanb]

Take heart, I read on another board that apparently the Japanese fed wants its skaters to strart training figures to improve edge control and quality of turns.
Figures also seem like just the kind of effort intensive exercise requiring maniacal levels of concentration that the Japanese love to apply to any learning/apprentice system.

Depends on how adamant they are about their skaters doing so and if they introduce compusolry testing of them. I suspect that any federation which would enforce compulsory figures testing into its system would disadvantage the skaters on the international stage as a result of not having enough time to learn the difficult jumps as well as the figures.

Ant

 

[mskater93]

I know many young skaters in the US who do some level of figures at their coach's request/demand. Many coaches are starting to teach figure loops to help with change of edge spins.

Moves in the field DO require demonstration of some level of edge control (although not the same as the figures), especially at the higher levels.

 

[antmanb]

I know many young skaters in the US who do some level of figures at their coach's request/demand. Many coaches are starting to teach figure loops to help with change of edge spins.

Moves in the field DO require demonstration of some level of edge control (although not the same as the figures), especially at the higher levels.

In fact loops are considered difficult turns for the step sequences in the bumf about levels in step sequences. It was enlightening to see so many elite skaters scraping their way through them and stepping off them off balance this past season. Certainly nowhere near passing standard for a figures test.

Ant

 

[mskater93]

Loops are really not that difficult in the grand scheme of things considering that forward loops were first taught at the 3rd test and back loops were taught at the 4th whereas brackets were taught at the fifth test, counters at the 6th, and rockers on the 7th. I think the reason why the elites struggled this season is because they never had to learn them (Jeremy Abbott breezed through the ones in his program, but he continued to progress with figures). I have learned the basic loops (and have never passed my 2nd figure test, got three retries on it) both forward and backwards and have them as transition elements in my program and as part of my turn variety for footwork, and I am nowhere near what you would call elite. The thing about loops is that the body positioning is counter intuitive and required some un-learning to get consistently.

 

[silver.blades]

^the order of the tests isn't nessisaily based on difficulty although they generally are. Most people I know consider the Jr. Silver skills test to be the most difficult skills test and I agree. I think loops would be taught sooner rather than later because they are good training for learning to use the knees and are really hard to get right because timing is so important.

 

[Ginask8s]

Loops are not as difficult to do when you are going slow. In footwork where you may be building up some speed, they become hard to control. Figures are done slowly and with control. There is no presentation or arm movements. For goodness sakes you are looking down at your pattern. I think figures done like we used to do them (hours a day) taught kids to look down which is a bad thing.
Having said that, I could see some coaches having figures like ballet class. I think that could be useful. I dont think testing figures would be of any benefit. Also, when you are 8 they are pretty dull. .

 

[blue dog]

Loops are really not that difficult in the grand scheme of things considering that forward loops were first taught at the 3rd test and back loops were taught at the 4th whereas brackets were taught at the fifth test, counters at the 6th, and rockers on the 7th. I think the reason why the elites struggled this season is because they never had to learn them (Jeremy Abbott breezed through the ones in his program, but he continued to progress with figures). I have learned the basic loops (and have never passed my 2nd figure test, got three retries on it) both forward and backwards and have them as transition elements in my program and as part of my turn variety for footwork, and I am nowhere near what you would call elite. The thing about loops is that the body positioning is counter intuitive and required some un-learning to get consistently.

http://goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?p=323170#post323170

About the lutz and the flip...