Flutz issue

[gio]

Look at these two Sasha programs (Swan Lake and Malaguena). She does change to an inside edge on her Lutz. On her Flip she does an S, changing on an outside edge before the jump.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C6Za1gZvv0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzJRgvX_9Uo

 

[gio]

Alissa doesn't flutz AFAIK. Don't know too much about Mira. But Alissa has pretty good jumping technique except she has problem landing them.

They had an "e" near their 3Flip. But it does not happen every time. Maybe they lip just sometimes. I was sure that once they flutzed, but I may not remember correctly.

Czisny
http://www.isufs.org/results/gpchn07/gpchn07_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf

Leung
http://www.isufs.org/results/gpfra07/gpfra07_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf

 

[skates]

Look at these two Sasha programs (Swan Lake and Malaguena). She does change to an inside edge on her Lutz. On her Flip she does an S, changing on an outside edge before the jump.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C6Za1gZvv0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzJRgvX_9Uo

Sasha the flutzer
Sasha the lipper
She can call her lutz a flip and her flip a lutz and avoid "e" deductions if she comes back.

 

[Mathman]

Because, if you try, say, a triple flip + so-called-triple loop combo, then the rules discourage you from also doing a solo triple loop (that is, a real triple loop). So the true loop jump falls by the wayside at the topmost level.

Where in the data is this supported? The few skaters who do 3X/3Lo usually have flip combo and lutz combo, as well as solo lutzes and flips in their program. By the Zayak rules, they can only have two triple repeats. What encourages skaters to drop the solo loop is points: both a flip and lutz score more than a loop.

You and I are saying the same thing.

According to the rules, to maximize your points you must do a triple loop in combination (not to mention a triple something / double loop / double loop as well) and you must not do a solo triple loop.

IMHO the only question that requires appeal to data is the claim that most loops at the end of triple-triple combinations are severely pre-rotated (which may or may not get caught), more so than for solo triple loops.

 

[hockeyfan228]

She didn't do a 3Lz/3Lo, did she?

I remember her doing 3Lz/3T. In the SP she underrotated it but was fine in the LP.

You are right -- I was mixing up Arakawa with Ando.

Ando has had a mixed strategy since she first competed at Sr. Worlds in Dortmund and pre-rotated the 3Lo in combo. For the most part, she's kept the 3Lz/3Lo, but in the last three years, there were only two competitions in which she was credited for them, both last season: Skate America 2006 and Worlds 2007. She's either been downgraded on the attempt or has deliberately substituted a 2Lo or 2T at the end of her combos. For a couple of years, she kept in the solo 3Lo, regardless of whether the jump in combo was ratified, but she also played the points game, attempting 2 Flips and 2 Lutzes, instead of a solo 3 Lo, especially as Asada has used it, and has had almost, if not all, of her 3Lz/3Lo attempts ratified.

 

[hockeyfan228]

IMHO the only question that requires appeal to data is the claim that most loops at the end of triple-triple combinations are severely pre-rotated (which may or may not get caught), more so than for solo triple loops.

The rule in question is the Zayak rule, and that's been in effect for years. What had kept the solo 3Lo in programs for so long is that under 6.0, a judge could decide to give a lower technical score to a skater who left out any of the standard five, because s/he felt that a skater should be able to at least one of each, something that many on this board and FSU have argued should at least get bonus points under CoP.

There was never a rule to say that a skater couldn't substitute a solo 3F for a solo 3Lo, but how often did you see this happen under 6.0, unless, perhaps, when a skater was injured? Would Kwan have beaten Koster in the Moscow LP under 6.0 had she left out the solo 3Lo? (Under 6.0, that was a full placement, not .69.) Liashenko actually won some events under CoP when she left out the 3Lo that had plagued her. Would Sarah Meier, Dan Fang, Valentina Marchei, Gwendoline Didier, Aki Sawada, and Anastasia Gizmadetdinova not have attempted a loop of any kind under 6.0, when they -- half the field -- did just that at TEB? Glebova left out a flip attempt, and Pavuk and Leung had only double loops in combination. Asada has a 3A, but she doesn't have a 3T or a 3S. That leaves only the silver and bronze medallists, Meissner and Wagner, to have landed at least one of all five standard triples. Although in 6.0 world, Asada's ratified 3/3 and 3A would have trumped all. (Ironically, it was her 2Lo at the end of the 3/2/2 that was downgraded, but there's not much to lose from a 1.5 base mark )

The rules haven't made the solo 3Lo an endangered species; a combination of incentives and the elimination of an inconsistent and unwritten rule have. What CoP has allowed is for a skater to substitute another jump for a solo 3Lo, and more skaters have taken advantage of this than the only two performing the 3Lo in combination, Asada and Ando. (And Asada substituted solo 3Lo for solo 3Lu at TEB, when she added the 3A, although she doesn't have a 3T or 3S.) Look at the young French skater in TEB: She attempted 3Lz and 3F in both programs, and had all but one ratified, but not a loop, triple or double, in sight.

 

[Mathman]

The rules haven't made the solo 3Lo an endangered species; a combination of incentives and the elimination of an inconsistent and unwritten rule have.

OK. I still think we are saying the same thing. The CoP rules (in particular, the scale of values combined with the same Zayak rules as always) provide an incentive for leaving out the solo loop.

Interesting point, however, about the CoP also removing the former disincentive to leaving out the solo loop.

What CoP has allowed is for a skater to substitute another jump for a solo 3Lo, and more skaters have taken advantage of this than the only two performing the 3Lo in combination, Asada and Ando. (And Asada substituted solo 3Lo for solo 3Lu at TEB, when she added the 3A, although she doesn't have a 3T or 3S.) Look at the young French skater in TEB: She attempted 3Lz and 3F in both programs, and had all but one ratified, but not a loop, triple or double, in sight.

I do not understand this point as well. No matter how many Lutzes and flips you do, it still pays you, pointwise, to do a solo triple loop rather than any of the other remaining solo jumps in the LP -- unless you used up your 3-loop option in a combo.

So the only advantage I can see to leaving out the solo loop is because you want to do a triple Lutz/triple loop or triple flip/triple loop combo -- thus picking up the 5 points for the loop without counting an extra jumping pass. That is, it lets you do an extra double Axel at the end.

As far as I can see the only other reason not to do a solo triple loop is because you can't do it (or you want to save your hip joints).

The French skater that you mention would have been better off CoP-wise to do a triple Lutz and a triple flip and a triple loop in the LP, not to mention picking up an extra 3.3 points for a +2Lo+2Lo at the end of the program. (I am, of course, talking about what the CoP rewards and encourages, not what the skaters are capable of doing.)

 

[tiara]

Look at these two Sasha programs (Swan Lake and Malaguena). She does change to an inside edge on her Lutz. On her Flip she does an S, changing on an outside edge before the jump.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C6Za1gZvv0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzJRgvX_9Uo

You misunderstand what Dick said about Sasha's lips. He did not say that Sasha changed her edges from the inside to the outside before the lip. He just said that Sasha changed her edges from the outside to the inside, just the exact same way as she does lutzs. He meant that Sasha jumps both her lutzs and lips in the exact same way. Flutzers always use the inside edge and lippers always use the outside edge. They never mix up. If they can mix up, that indicates they are capable to use both edges properly. So, they do not need to flutz or lip from the beginning.

 

[gio]

You misunderstand what Dick said about Sasha's lips. He did not say that Sasha changed her edges from the inside to the outside before the lip. He just said that Sasha changed her edges from the outside to the inside, just the exact same way as she does lutzs. He meant that Sasha jumps both her lutzs and lips in the exact same way. Flutzers always use the inside edge and lippers always use the outside edge. They never mix up. If they can mix up, that indicates they are capable to use both edges properly. So, they do not need to flutz or lip from the beginning.

I did see that Sasha flip is from the inside edge (so a real flip). But her technique is not good. I mean, in a flip you are not supposed to go two seconds before on an outside edge and then at the last second on the inside edge. This means no edge control.

In the Lutz she goes from outside to inside.
In the Flip she goes inside to outside to inside.

Edit = Look at the Malaguena program (second link), it is clear that when she is toe picking in the Flip just before the pick, she is on an outside edge, then when her toe picks the ice and she jumps she is on an inside edge.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

With the blessings of the CoP, some skaters have taken advantage of omitting the solo loop which draws attention to the pre rotation take off, and at the same time garner points by hiding a loop jump inside a 3-jump combo. That's legal strategy. It also prevents them from slowing down to carefully execute the solo loop jump which may well disrupt their choreography. I have seen some skaters who can manage triple solo loop jumps at reasonable speed and flow, but not many.

BTW. Are any of the Ladies who do the bouncy 3-jump combo, doing more than a double loop jump? or has that feat been left only to Plushenko?

Joe

 

[Mathman]

BTW. Are any of the Ladies who do the bouncy 3-jump combo, doing more than a double loop jump? or has that feat been left only to Plushenko?

I think Shizuka Arakawa did a triple Salchow / triple loop / triple toe in a fluff pro competition last year (Ice wars?).

Two skaters who like the loop are Mao Asada and Ashley Wagner. In their last competition, Asada did 3F+3Lo and a solo loop. As well as a 2A+2Lo+2Lo combo. Only the last 2Lo of the combo was downgraded.

Ashley did a 3Lo+2Lo combo and a solo 3 Lo. In all, she did five loop jumps, two triples and three doubles.

(So I guess my fears that the loop jump is falling by the wayside is misplaced.)

 

[gkelly]

And don't forget Slutskaya illegally doing three triple loops at 2005 Worlds.

 

[dwiggin3]

Thank you BFY. I'm just the ornery complainer about a jump that doesn't exist. Alois Lutz invented the jump. Did he say one could do his jump anyway they want or the way he invented it? Do people get credit for a triple axel when they only did a double axel even if the intent and the lean was a triple axel?

I believe the carelessness about this jump lies with the Oly champ of 1998 who had the most famous flutz of that era. While Tara did do many challenging triples in her routine successfully, she did not do a proper lutz. I just can't help thinking that skaters and coaches were not going to let this worry them so if a skater was spending too much time on doing what Alois invented, they would invent their own. It wont keep them from gold. True! but there are other ways to gain points. Why not just disregard a wrong edge take off, as a non entity. It does not penalize and, of course, gives no credit for a personal jump. Leave it out for other recognized successful elements leading up to higher points. Better still, learn how to do a proper lutz.

Horrors, this gets me so worked up. To see the elite skaters unable to comply with a basic movement on ice:The Back Outside Edge.

Joe

Joe, you have expressed my sentiments about this issue beautifully! I too feel very strongly about this Flutz/wrong takeoff edge thing. I really feel that skaters should be significantly dinged for it.

I do not support the notion that in the case of a wrong-edge takeoff that the skater should not be penalized for the jump they completed rather than the jump planned. If you planned a lutz and your pre-entrance clearly showed you intended to complete a lutz (long, backward entrance for lutz), then if you complete a flip, the skating community should not jump to their feet and congratulate the skater on a great flip - they should be dissapointed at a bad lutz.

IMO, the phasing out of figures was one of the worst thing the skating community has done. I realize that it was tedious (I did figures and felt the same way, but when I was able to connect what I did in patch with correct freestyle technique, I appreciated patch more) but I really wish they would bring it back - at least as part of the testing procedures.

A senior skater on down to a prelim. skater who can not produce a sound lutz, whether it be 1/2 lutz up to 3 lutz, should be ashamed of themselves and even more, the coach who allows it should be admonished by their club and the USFSA in terms of not allowing them to teach basic skills.

I say Joe for President!!!!

 

[janetb]

They had an "e" near their 3Flip. But it does not happen every time. Maybe they lip just sometimes. I was sure that once they flutzed, but I may not remember correctly.

Czisny
http://www.isufs.org/results/gpchn07/gpchn07_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf

Leung
http://www.isufs.org/results/gpfra07/gpfra07_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf

I don't know about Alissa but Mira has never flutzed and this is the first time she's been called for lipping. I think it's normal for a skater to be better at either the Flip or the Lutz so even those like Yu-Na KIM, Joannie ROCHETTE and Mira Leung who do have both a true Lutz and a true Flip on occasion will lip or flutz slightly.

 

[gio]

Unfortunately in these days there are few Top female skaters who could do correctly all 5 triples. The days when the Top Ladies had proper technique in all 5 triple jumps (Kwan, Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Chen, Ito, Harding, Kerrigan, Malinina) are gone.

Now the Top Ladies have problems not just with 1 jump, but with 2 or 3.

Asada = no lutz, no toe-loop, no salchow
Meissner = no flip, no toe-loop
Meier = no flip, no loop
Zhang = no lutz, no salchow

 

[dwiggin3]

OK. I still think we are saying the same thing. The CoP rules (in particular, the scale of values combined with the same Zayak rules as always) provide an incentive for leaving out the solo loop.

Interesting point, however, about the CoP also removing the former disincentive to leaving out the solo loop.I do not understand this point as well. No matter how many Lutzes and flips you do, it still pays you, pointwise, to do a solo triple loop rather than any of the other remaining solo jumps in the LP -- unless you used up your 3-loop option in a combo.

So the only advantage I can see to leaving out the solo loop is because you want to do a triple Lutz/triple loop or triple flip/triple loop combo -- thus picking up the 5 points for the loop without counting an extra jumping pass. That is, it lets you do an extra double Axel at the end.

As far as I can see the only other reason not to do a solo triple loop is because you can't do it (or you want to save your hip joints).

The French skater that you mention would have been better off CoP-wise to do a triple Lutz and a triple flip and a triple loop in the LP, not to mention picking up an extra 3.3 points for a +2Lo+2Lo at the end of the program. (I am, of course, talking about what the CoP rewards and encourages, not what the skaters are capable of doing.)

Call me old - fashioned (at 32) but I really like a well balanced program and for me, part of that is completing all major jumps (Toe, Sal, Loop, Flip, Lutz an Axle) as solo jumps and then doing them again in various combinations. I understand why CoP doesn't value solo jumps like the Toe and Loop but I really find it balances the program - esp. the loop given the ease of pre-rotation when you add it as as second jump in a combo. To me, a solo Loop demonstrates that the skater has mastered the jump - and doesn't need to handicap it by adding it to a combo where they can pre-rotated it.

JMO.

 

[gio]

I don't know about Alissa but Mira has never flutzed and this is the first time she's been called for lipping. I think it's normal for a skater to be better at either the Flip or the Lutz so even those like Yu-Na KIM, Joannie ROCHETTE and Mira Leung who do have both a true Lutz and a true Flip on occasion will lip or flutz slightly.

I think you gave the right explaination! Thanks!

 

[dwiggin3]

Unfortunately in these days there are few Top female skaters who could do correctly all 5 triples. The days when the Top Ladies had proper technique in all 5 triple jumps (Kwan, Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Chen, Ito, Harding, Kerrigan, Malinina) are gone.

Now the Top Ladies have problems not just with 1 jump, but with 2 or 3.

Asada = no lutz, no toe-loop, no salchow
Meissner = no flip, no toe-loop
Meier = no flip, no loop
Zhang = no lutz, no salchow

It boggles my mind that so many top skaters CAN'T do a toe-loop or a sal. I just don't understand. Those are BASIC jumps. I learned this in the first 2 years of skating. I did both of these jumps in my first pre-prelim. competition back in the early 80's.

I can understand the issue with the loop - it's a scary jump to me...I had problems with it - partially because I learned it incorrectly from running 3-turns which allowed me to cheat the jump. When I had to actually use the ink circles on the ice and start the jump w/out the 3-turns, I hardly landed it.

I loved the flip but realize that how it could give a skater problems. To me, it was an easy jump.

I hated lutz's and can see why it would give even the best skater issues. I was either on the flat or the inside edge. I had a terrible time jumping from an outside edge.

I was lucky in that my coach would NOT let me test up if I could not do a proper lutz (and loop) at least 80% of the time. No wonder I was in my 20's before I made it to seniors. I spend 4 years at Intermediate because I could not get the edge correct on the lutz.

But top skaters THAT CAN'T DO THE TWO EASIEST JUMPS - TOE-LOOP AND SAL? Shameful!. That, my fellow Golden Skate friends, should be a huge indicator of the direction skating is headed and be a real cause for alarm.

 

[Mafke]

It boggles my mind that so many top skaters CAN'T do a toe-loop or a sal. I just don't understand. Those are BASIC jumps. I learned this in the first 2 years of skating. I did both of these jumps in my first pre-prelim. competition back in the early 80's. ...
But top skaters THAT CAN'T DO THE TWO EASIEST JUMPS - TOE-LOOP AND SAL? Shameful!. That, my fellow Golden Skate friends, should be a huge indicator of the direction skating is headed and be a real cause for alarm.

As someone pointed out, these young lightweight girls seem to be creating their own technique (rather than taking and following instructions based on traditional teaching methods). So it kind of makes sense.
Zhang's mulekick and flinging octopus arms (which now bother me as much as the kick) look like something a self-taught person would come up (in order to pre-rotate as much as possible). That she's gotten this far with that technique is no credit to the USFSA testing (or ISU oversight).
And I'd say, get used to it, there's only going to be more. My guess is that within a few years jumps will be completely re-defined with no mention of edges whatsoever.

 

[enlight78]

I understand why more women then men have downgrades jumps. That is a physical matter. But why are more top women then top men have less than five or even four different triples? If figures were just brought back to novice or junior level do you think it will help the quality of the future generation?