Flutz issue

[gkelly]

Unfortunately in these days there are few Top female skaters who could do correctly all 5 triples. The days when the Top Ladies had proper technique in all 5 triple jumps (Kwan, Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Chen, Ito, Harding, Kerrigan, Malinina) are gone.

But keep in mind that when Ito, Harding, and Kerrigan were competing, up through the 1992 season, there were probably fewer than 20 other women in the world who had all five triples.

Even in 1993 and 94 all the jumps weren't necessary to be a "top" female contender at the world level, and there were often a few exceptions who made it to the top 10 without all the jumps in the late 90s/early 2000s as well.

There were definitely flutzes (e.g., Bobek, Lipinski, S. Hughes) and other technique issues among top ladies during that era as well.

 

[gkelly]

But why are more top women then top men have less than five or even four different triples? If figures were just brought back to novice or junior level do you think it will help the quality of the future generation?

If figures were brought back in such a way that required the number of hours of practice that they required in the 1980s and before, I think you would see better technique on the double lutzes and loops but even fewer skaters who could consistently rotate and land all the triples -- they would have less time to train the jumps. And, if anything, insisting

From the mid 1990s (after most of those who had competed figures at the senior international level had retired) until the introduction of the new judging system, I think that any skater who could make a reasonable attempt and hope to stand up on any triple would try to include it because triple jump count and difficulty of the jumps chosen in the short program were some of the most objective and most obviously rewarded elements in the old system, so there was incentive to make the attempts even with less than optimal technique or less than optimal consistency.

A lot of those attempts would have been downgraded in the current system, though, so skaters who can't quite rotate the jumps have less incentive to include them in their programs than they did a few years ago. Better to repeat the jumps they can land, including double axels, or include good doubles that will get positive GOE instead of underrotated triples that will count as bad doubles with negative GOE.

Another point that may partly explain why we see fewer triple loops than triple lutzes and flips -- if a skater is good at toe jumps and can land the triple lutz, she can probably also land the triple flip. (Although one or the other may often suffer from wrong edge takeoff, there's usually enough difference in the approach that they can be seen as different jumps.) That means that a toe jumper has two of the harder triples to work with, plus probably the triple toe and maybe the triple salchow.

A skater who is better at edge jumps, on the other hand, may have the triple loop but not the lutz or flip, along with triple salchow and maybe triple toe. And probably a good double axel but not a triple axel. That gives her fewer jump points to work with in her base mark, so other things being equal she's more likely to lose to skaters who are better at toe jumps and therefore not to reach the top levels where TV viewers get to see them.

This year the required solo jump in the junior SP is the loop, double or triple, so look for skaters who do have triple loops to place well on the junior circuit this year.

 

[dwiggin3]

[

 

[dwiggin3]

If figures were brought back in such a way that required the number of hours of practice that they required in the 1980s and before, I think you would see better technique on the double lutzes and loops but even fewer skaters who could consistently rotate and land all the triples -- they would have less time to train the jumps. And, if anything, insisting

I think that the improvement of technique would be universal in terms of the entire package - not just lutz and loop. I go agree that having to train figures would take up a great deal of time however, I think some kind of reduced training and testing in figures would ultimately be very helpful. Sure, lots of opposition in the beginning but I really think it would vastly improve the quality of our skaters.


[/QUOTE]Another point that may partly explain why we see fewer triple loops than triple lutzes and flips -- if a skater is good at toe jumps and can land the triple lutz, she can probably also land the triple flip. (Although one or the other may often suffer from wrong edge takeoff, there's usually enough difference in the approach that they can be seen as different jumps.) That means that a toe jumper has two of the harder triples to work with, plus probably the triple toe and maybe the triple salchow.

A skater who is better at edge jumps, on the other hand, may have the triple loop but not the lutz or flip, along with triple salchow and maybe triple toe. And probably a good double axel but not a triple axel. That gives her fewer jump points to work with in her base mark, so other things being equal she's more likely to lose to skaters who are better at toe jumps and therefore not to reach the top levels where TV viewers get to see them.[/QUOTE]

I understand the idea that if you are a better toe-jumper rather than edge jumper then you'll earn more points but I'm not so sure it's that simple - in terms of being a toe v. edge jumper. In my personal experience and that of many, many skaters I have and still know, it's not that simple. I was very good at the toe-loops, flips, and sals. I was terrible at the loop and lutz. I don't think this meant that I was primarily a toe jumpers vs. an edge. The same was true with other skaters. Some jumps just gave them trouble - and it often didn't corrilate to being better/worse at a specific type of jump.

Speaking of that....I think it would be interesting to chart success of toe v. edge jumps and corrilate them - using stats software.


[/QUOTE]This year the required solo jump in the junior SP is the loop, double or triple, so look for skaters who do have triple loops to place well on the junior circuit this year.[/QUOTE]

Interesting.....of the top-juniors, lets see who can/can't do the jump.

 

[hockeyfan228]

With the blessings of the CoP, some skaters have taken advantage of omitting the solo loop which draws attention to the pre rotation take off, and at the same time garner points by hiding a loop jump inside a 3-jump combo. That's legal strategy. It also prevents them from slowing down to carefully execute the solo loop jump which may well disrupt their choreography. I have seen some skaters who can manage triple solo loop jumps at reasonable speed and flow, but not many.

BTW. Are any of the Ladies who do the bouncy 3-jump combo, doing more than a double loop jump? or has that feat been left only to Plushenko?

Joe

There are two women who use the 3Lo as the second jumps in combo: Miki Ando and Mao Asada, not a big sample population. Asada's strategy until the TEB LP was to do two flips and two lutzes, and would have violated the Zayak rule had she also done a solo 3Lo and one in combination with the 3Lz. Her solo 3Lo at TEB was ratified, but, almost every 3Lo she did in combination, pre-rotation or no pre-rotation has been ratified in the last two years.

Ando routinely did a solo 3Lo even when she had a 3Lz/3Lo. Not a single solo 3Lo was downgraded for her in the last three years, while at least one 3Lo in combination has been downgraded in almost every competition over the last three seasons in which she attempted it, which was pretty constantly.

If anything, the pre-rotation is noticed and downgraded in combination, but not as a solo jump. There wasn't a single down-graded 3Lo at TEB; the only downgraded loop was for Asada's 2Lo.

The women who are leaving out the 3Lo are mostly those without any 3/3, let alone doing a 3Lo in combination.

 

[blue dog]

The flutz, unfortunately, is a result of girls who rush the development of their lutzes. I don't look at a lutz as just as wrong edge takeoff, but also as pre-rotation. True lutzers (Szewczenko, Butyrskaya) didn't pre-rotate their lutzes. By rocking to an inside edge, it alows the skater 1/8 of pre-rotation (in some cases).

 

[Mafke]

But keep in mind that when Ito, Harding, and Kerrigan were competing, up through the 1992 season, there were probably fewer than 20 other women in the world who had all five triples.

I don't think there was anywhere near "fewer than 20" unless you want to redefine 'fewer than 20' as 'maybe five or six'.

Ito was a statistical outlier of insane proportions, in Calgary IIRC Witt and Thomas had three different triples planned for the LP as did Trenary and probably Cadavy, Manley won the LP with four different triples, none in combination.

There was a whole group of skaters that had trained figures and had achieved that level of jump variety/difficulty but who were left without many prospects after their sport changed underneath their feet - figures were eliminated and a few skaters appeared with 5 different triples (Ito, Yamaguchi, Bonaly, Kerrigan didn't get the triple loop until nationals 92 I believe adding a triple at that late date was an amazing feat for which she doesn't get enough credit)

But for a _long_ time only some skaters in the final group had 5 different triples.

 

[fairly4]

flutzes

one reason, the younger generation has a harder time with all their jumps.5-6 for women - all 6 for men not including the quad.

No Figures.
the figures back in the "olden" day was designed to teach proper take off and landing technique on all the jumps. It was stated once that because of the figures the injuries regarding jumping was less, because once the jump was done correctly there was less stress on the hip. Once figures was taken away 1990 the skaters realized they could still do the jump regardless of the technique and still received credit for it.as a result now fewer jumps done; fewer jumps done correctly; more injuries ( i know partially due to more competitions and quad/ triple axle. but still more injuries doing the "easier jumps".
also this new judging system doesn't require them doing all 5-6 triple jumps. like back in the old 6.0 . they get credit for doing any jump, plus spins, & footwork in the new judging system.
some of the system is good/some is bad.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The flutz, unfortunately, is a result of girls who rush the development of their lutzes.

I think many young ladies feel that they must rush their development because there was so much hype for 'youngest girl ever to win an Oly gold'. A quadruple spin combination, and two 3x3s must be had before they are 14.

Joe

 

[blue dog]

I think many young ladies feel that they must rush their development because there was so much hype for 'youngest girl ever to win an Oly gold'. A quadruple spin combination, and two 3x3s must be had before they are 14.

Joe

The sad truth is, however, depending on which nation you come from decides what jump arsenal is most favourable to even get to international competition. Someone from, say, Estonia can get away with Glebova's jump layout. Just as Laura Lepisto was able to use 3t/3t and a 3r in her SP in Skate Canada. However, those jump layouts are barely good enough to get you 11th place in US or Japanese nationals.

 

[gio]

one reason, the younger generation has a harder time with all their jumps.5-6 for women - all 6 for men not including the quad.

No Figures.
the figures back in the "olden" day was designed to teach proper take off and landing technique on all the jumps. It was stated once that because of the figures the injuries regarding jumping was less, because once the jump was done correctly there was less stress on the hip. Once figures was taken away 1990 the skaters realized they could still do the jump regardless of the technique and still received credit for it.as a result now fewer jumps done; fewer jumps done correctly; more injuries ( i know partially due to more competitions and quad/ triple axle. but still more injuries doing the "easier jumps".
also this new judging system doesn't require them doing all 5-6 triple jumps. like back in the old 6.0 . they get credit for doing any jump, plus spins, & footwork in the new judging system.
some of the system is good/some is bad.

ITA with all you have said!!!

 

[fenway]

1. Worst flutz? Subjective question but I'll go with Sarah Hughes because of that weird S tracing she had going into it (and the pre-Zhang mulekick).

Agreed. Completely subjective but for some reason Sarah's flutz drove me nuts perhaps because it felt 100x's more prevalent & obvious than anyone else.

 

[Mathman]

About the proposed bonus for including all five triples, couldn't the judges do that on their own by adjusting the PCSs?

If you present a full array of solo triples, all with correct edges, etc., doesn't that speak to "skating skills." Maybe even choreography. Certainly presentation.

Skaters who do the same three jumps over and over might put their second mark in jeopardy if the judges think they are dogging it, just as under 6.0 judging.

Another way to go would be to amend the "balanced program" criteria to say that for seniors, one of every kind of jump must be presented. If you can't do a triple, then you must use a jumping pass to do a double instead.

 

[tiara]

Unfortunately in these days there are few Top female skaters who could do correctly all 5 triples. The days when the Top Ladies had proper technique in all 5 triple jumps (Kwan, Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Chen, Ito, Harding, Kerrigan, Malinina) are gone.

I can agree with Chen and Ito. However, I think of Kwan,Slutskaya and Harding as flutzers and Kerrigan as a lipper. I do not know anything about Butyskaya and Malinina.

Among the current top women's skaters, I find as follows.

Flutzer:Asada,Zhang
Lipper:Kim,Ando,Meissner
Skater who can do a true lutz and lip both:Kostner,Poykio,Rochette
Questionable:Nakano

 

[Skye]

Among the current top women's skaters, I find as follows.

Flutzer:Asada,Zhang
Lipper:Kim,Ando,Meissner
Skater who can do a true lutz and lip both:Kostner,Poykio,Rochette
Questionable:Nakano

I just watched COC broadcasted by ESPN and Kim's flips were very much a true flip. Ando, from what I've seen so far has fixed her lip this season. IMO the worst lipper among the current ladies would go to Meier and the worst flutzer would have to be Asada.

 

[hockeyfan228]

I do not know anything about Butyskaya and Malinina.

When the ISU put out DVD's to illustrate proper jump technique, Malinina was the female model for the lutz.

 

[gkelly]

However, I think of Kwan,Slutskaya and Harding as flutzers and Kerrigan as a lipper.

Kwan and Slutskaya did sometimes have issues with the lutz takeoff. Sometimes it was pretty good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElmF3aiYC04
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDTYqmcDFpM

Harding had a great lutz:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdC5G7CDvbI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tX4sRDcCYOI

You might be right about Kerrigan's flip. Hard to tell from this angle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UlmpEBT9R4

I do not know anything about Butyskaya and Malinina.

Enjoy the lutzes (and flips):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7r3FhAnpW8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwVdheQlYq0

 

[tiara]

I just watched COC broadcasted by ESPN and Kim's flips were very much a true flip.

How about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNW000UYGaI&feature=related

IMO the worst lipper among the current ladies would go to Meier and the worst flutzer would have to be Asada.

[/QUOTE]

How do you decide whether this flutz is worse than that flutz? Does it depend on the duration that a skater keep the wrong edge or the inclination of the edges? Have you ever measured Asada's blade inclination? Has Asada ever inclined her blades inward more than Zhang?

 

[bekalc]

How about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNW000UYGaI&feature=related

How do you decide whether this flutz is worse than that flutz? Does it depend on the duration that a skater keep the wrong edge or the inclination of the edges? Have you ever measured Asada's blade inclination? Has Asada ever inclined her blades inward more than Zhang?

Tiara let it be.

 

[kerklandas]

Flutzer:Asada,Zhang
Lipper:Kim,Ando,Meissner
Skater who can do a true lutz and lip both:Kostner,Poykio,Rochette
Questionable:Nakano

Are you sure???? but sorry, you're wrong.
Yu-Na Kim didn't lip. Check the U-tube for ESPN COC coverage.
She did true flip also Miki Ando almost fix her lip from this season.
She mentioned about it after an interview at Skate America event.