General Ladies Discussion (was original Ladies LP thread)

[R.D.]

I was talking about next season, Red. This season's over (for her), at least as a senior lady.

Right, I'm still not convinced she's the one though. You either "got it" or you don't. I have not seen any evidence of the former, unfortunately...

That's kind of funny but I think you're right. It does seem like a favorable moment for Sasha to return! Certainly from the point of view of people paying attention.

That's right in a way. Her return would get the attention of the press, for sure. I don't think she's as big a draw to the GP as her fans make her out to be, though.

A half-hearted (one could substitute something else in there as well) approach ain't gonna cut it. We have a great roster of ladies who are dedicated and whose life-long dream is the Olympics. I hope they can realize those dreams and we can cheer them on, hopefully to the Podium.

 

[Andalusia]

While we're on the subject of Ashley, I think her 2009 Nats programs were only just put up on YouTube, and if you watch the slow-mo replay of her lutz in close-up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_Smg5ZPN8w), you'll notice that her's is a really glaring flutz - it's like she doesn't even bother switching to an outside edge. Well, guess what? She was only given a "!" for her lutz in the SP, and no cautionary marks whatsoever for her lutz in the long. Since her flutz is so obvious, I really doubt she could have magically fixed it in time for the FS. Meanwhile, we have Caroline (who has noticeably lessened the inside edge on her lutz this season, btw) receiving "!" for both her flip and lutz in both the short and long. The poor girl just can't catch a break. Really makes one wonder if the USFS favours certain skaters over others, and whether they wanted Ashley on top of the podium (or, at the very least, wanted her to go to Worlds).

 

[PolymerBob]

There was a lot of arguing on these ( and other ) boards on how the US ladies should be handled. Should the team be left as is? Should Alissa be pulled out? Should Rachael be pulled out? Should we wait until the results of Junior Worlds? Should we do this? Should we do that?

3 1/2 days after the competition, we have gotten nothing but deafening silence from the USFSA. Am I the only one who would like them to say something? ..... Just so we know where we stand. :scratch:

 

[kittyjake5]

There was a lot of arguing on these ( and other ) boards on how the US ladies should be handled. Should the team be left as is? Should Alissa be pulled out? Should Rachael be pulled out? Should we wait until the results of Junior Worlds? Should we do this? Should we do that?

3 1/2 days after the competition, we have gotten nothing but deafening silence from the USFSA. Am I the only one who would like them to say something? ..... Just so we know where we stand. :scratch:

Don't expect to hear anything regarding the world team selection from the USFSA. The World Team decision was made at Nationals and it is final. If there is an injury or a withdrawal then USFSA will issue a statement.

 

[Alicja]

There was a lot of arguing on these ( and other ) boards on how the US ladies should be handled. Should the team be left as is? Should Alissa be pulled out? Should Rachael be pulled out? Should we wait until the results of Junior Worlds? Should we do this? Should we do that?

3 1/2 days after the competition, we have gotten nothing but deafening silence from the USFSA. Am I the only one who would like them to say something? ..... Just so we know where we stand. :scratch:

I wouldn't say that the USFSA has a reason to make an announcement, they already made their decision on the team. While there is a lot of arguing going on, I don't really think there's an exclusive reason to change the teams that have been announced. I'm thrilled that Caroline finished 4th and it was great to see her all smiles after the LP, something I haven't seen from her in quite a while. But it's not like that Rachael or Alissa had a major meltdown. If you read all the comments on the team it sounds like they didn't make the cut for the LP but, hey, they both finished in the top 10.
Btw, I think we shouldn't argue that much about 3 spots for the Ladies at the Olympics, of course it would be great but I think the USFSA should focus on long-term development towards the 2014 Olympics, there are so many great young talents in US figure skating but all of them still need their time to reach their full potential. If Rachael and Alissa manage to get the magic 13 it's great but I don't think it's such a disaster if they don't.

 

[LeCygne]

While we're on the subject of Ashley, I think her 2009 Nats programs were only just put up on YouTube, and if you watch the slow-mo replay of her lutz in close-up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_Smg5ZPN8w), you'll notice that her's is a really glaring flutz - it's like she doesn't even bother switching to an outside edge. Well, guess what? She was only given a "!" for her lutz in the SP, and no cautionary marks whatsoever for her lutz in the long. Since her flutz is so obvious, I really doubt she could have magically fixed it in time for the FS. Meanwhile, we have Caroline (who has noticeably lessened the inside edge on her lutz this season, btw) receiving "!" for both her flip and lutz in both the short and long. The poor girl just can't catch a break. Really makes one wonder if the USFS favours certain skaters over others, and whether they wanted Ashley on top of the podium (or, at the very least, wanted her to go to Worlds).

I totally agree. I've been saying this a lot, but Ashley definitely had help from the judges in winning the LP at Nationals. But look at Caroline in 2008. She had similar problems in the SP and was all the way down in 7th was it? Somewhere there, but the judges obviously didn't bother "helping" her in the LP, even though it was a hundred times cleaner (and a lot better IMO) than Ashley's LP this year. Even Mirai, who had a fall, finished ahead of Caroline in the LP in 2008. Caroline should have won the LP that year without a doubt. Ask the crowd, they knew it.

 

[Tonichelle]

the USFSA announced the team after nationals. by their own rules the one person you want booted off of the team CAN'T be booted off. So what's for them to make a statement about.

Should them come out and say "Dear Bob, sorry to disappoint you but Alissa's on the team to stay." you already know that. It's redundant and unneeded.

This should be the new subject of MoveOn.org.

 

[PolymerBob]

I totally agree. I've been saying this a lot, but Ashley definitely had help from the judges in winning the LP at Nationals. But look at Caroline in 2008. She had similar problems in the SP and was all the way down in 7th was it? Somewhere there, but the judges obviously didn't bother "helping" her in the LP, even though it was a hundred times cleaner (and a lot better IMO) than Ashley's LP this year. Even Mirai, who had a fall, finished ahead of Caroline in the LP in 2008. Caroline should have won the LP that year without a doubt. Ask the crowd, they knew it.

With Caroline's short last year, it is worse than that. According to a news report at the time, the judges made a mistake that cost her a few points, but the rules did not allow them to correct it. So Caroline was kept out of the final group. This MAY have resulted in a few points being shaved off the long.

From what I recall, after her short, her faulty score came up. Then it was changed higher to correct the mistake. Then it was lowered again when it was discovered that the mistake could not be corrected. This is one of the few cases where a skater getting screwed is a documented fact.

 

[*Sniper*]

I'm depressed about US ladies... not sure what could be done - they're doing the best they can, but the field moved on without them... It looks at this time that Caroline is the only one having what it takes to be competetive but she is not going to Worlds... We lost a bunch of past contenders, Bebe, Kimmie, Emily H and the new possible ones like Angela M, Mirai, Ashley, still have ways to go. Alyssa has what it takes, but does not deliver. Rachel is sweet and hard working, and deserves to be on the team, just lacks that difficult to describe quality - that makes you glued to TV and jump out of your seat when a skater finished... I know my comments are redundant to what many of you have said, just needed to vent to a caring audience...

Welcome to the boards!
I'm totally with you and many concerned US fans.

 

[LeCygne]

With Caroline's short last year, it is worse than that. According to a news report at the time, the judges made a mistake that cost her a few points, but the rules did not allow them to correct it. So Caroline was kept out of the final group. This MAY have resulted in a few points being shaved off the long.

Ashley wasn't in the final group either, but she won the LP just the same. And actually, Caroline WAS in the final group. I remember because a lot of people were upset that Bebe, who was ahead of Caroline in the short due to that mistake, was shifted out of the final group to make room for Caroline so that she could be included in the NBC broadcast of the final group.

Just to break it down: total of 20 competitors in LP in 2008 Nats. Caroline skated #15, and there are 6 skaters in a warm up group. 20 - 6 = 14, but actually 15-20 is 6 skaters. Bebe skated #14, last in the second to last WUG.

 

[Trewyn]

Ashley wasn't in the final group either, but she won the LP just the same. And actually, Caroline WAS in the final group. I remember because a lot of people were upset that Bebe, who was ahead of Caroline in the short due to that mistake, was shifted out of the final group to make room for Caroline so that she could be included in the NBC broadcast of the final group.

Just to break it down: total of 20 competitors in LP in 2008 Nats. Caroline skated #15, and there are 6 skaters in a warm up group. 20 - 6 = 14, but actually 15-20 is 6 skaters. Bebe skated #14, last in the second to last WUG.

Actually I think the final WUG was limited to 5 last year (while this year it was 6, lucky, otherwise Ashley wouldn't even have been in the penultimate warm up group!). If her starting number was 15 then Caroline skated last of the penultimate group. I'm very sure that Katrina Hacker, who finished 5th in the SP last year was the first skater of the final flight.

 

[museksk8r]

And actually, Caroline WAS in the final group.

No, she wasn't. I recorded this competition and the penultimate group skate order for the 2008 US ladies' Nationals was:

Danielle Kahle
Alissa Czisny
Melissa Bulanhagui
Bebe Liang
Caroline Zhang

The final group was:
Katrina Hacker
Kimmie Meissner
Rachael Flatt
Ashley Wagner
Mirai Nagasu

 

[LeCygne]

That's weird to have 5 skaters per group. All right then, I stand corrected. I just remembered that it was a big deal that Caroline skated after Bebe... Really it didn't make much of a difference then. But still, none of it changes the fact that Caroline had one of the best skates that night and didn't deserve to finish 4th in that segment, no matter the skater order.

 

[Andalusia]

Someone on FSU reported seeing Caroline crying at practice sessions over the summer after trying to take off from the correct edge on her lutz and falling many times. Poor girl. She's been receiving the "!" mark for her lutzes instead of an "e" this season, so hopefully her hard work will eventually pay off. Cheer up, Caroline, many here at GS love and support you!

Still makes me sad she got gypped from participating at her 1st Worlds in her hometown. She and Rachael are both L.A. girls - crowd support seemed to do wonders for Alissa's PCS in Ohio, so who knows what could happen with Rachael and Caroline.

 

[justaskatingfan]

Caroline Zhang Lp Nat 08 in Youtube HD

Caroline Zhang Lp Nat 08 in Youtube HD

 

[mskater93]

Just to break it down: total of 20 competitors in LP in 2008 Nats. Caroline skated #15, and there are 6 skaters in a warm up group. 20 - 6 = 14, but actually 15-20 is 6 skaters. Bebe skated #14, last in the second to last WUG.

The confusion on W/U numbers is the rules for many of you since you are used to something divisible by more than 5. There can be NO MORE THAN 6 on a W/U in a US Championship singles event including adult events (numbers are different for pairs, I think it's 4 pairs, I don't participate in that event and am typically distracted at Adult Nationals during the W/U by other conversation around me), and the final group always must contain the largest number of skaters if it is not divisible by a number. Last year, there were 20 competitors which is 4 groups of 5. Some years, there are 18 skaters which is 3 groups of 6. Some years, there are 22 skaters which are 2 groups of 5 (the first 2 groups) and 2 groups of 6 (the last 2 groups). If there are 19 competitors, it's 1 group of 4 and 3 groups of 5. I hope these examples help clear up confusion.

 

[skatingbc]

Someone on FSU reported seeing Caroline crying at practice sessions over the summer after trying to take off from the correct edge on her lutz and falling many times. Poor girl. She's been receiving the "!" mark for her lutzes instead of an "e" this season, so hopefully her hard work will eventually pay off. Cheer up, Caroline, many here at GS love and support you!

I think it's interesting how many women are having to relearn their lutz technique. Good on them for actually trying to change it! Honestly though, why are they not being taught proper lutz technique right from the get-go? I know skaters at my club are not being taught axel jumps until all of their other single jumps are being executed with proper technique. Why are other clubs not doing the same?

Way to go Caroline for working so hard!

 

[Tonichelle]

because until recently good technique wasn't needed for a win.

didn't Mao Asada's former coach flip out about her getting dinged for wrong take off saying that it shouldn't matter (he was MK's last coach IIRC)

 

[Eurofan]

because until recently good technique wasn't needed for a win.

didn't Mao Asada's former coach flip out about her getting dinged for wrong take off saying that it shouldn't matter (he was MK's last coach IIRC)

Artunian? Wasn't MK working with him to improve her jumps?

 

[mhu714]

General thoughts

I've been away from this board for quite some time but wanted to add my 2 cents to this thread: While it's a fact that US ladies are no longer dominating this discipline as was the case going all the way back to the 50's, and there no Kwans around at the moment, I think we still have a tremendous amt of talent. I love Caroline, Mirai, Ashley, Rachael and Alissa, and though Yu-Na and Mao will always (rightfully) be the favorites, any of them can contend for the podium at any event. It's true that wrong edge takeoffs and underrotations are rearing their ugly heads, but it's even Kim and Asada are getting dinged from time to time. And who else in the world is so much better? Kostner? She leaves me completely cold and is not a consistent jumper. Rochette? She was great at 4CC's but has hardly been the model of consistency either. The other Japanese ladies? All have flaws of their own. When Czisny skates a clean program she's as beautiful as anyone in the world. I hope Sasha stays away--I'd rather see our other youngsters continue to develop without looking over their shoulders.