General Ladies Discussion (was original Ladies LP thread)

[Particle Man]

While it's a fact that US ladies are no longer dominating this discipline...any of them can contend for the podium at any event.

That's a stretch. Technically they're all "contending for the podium", even whichever skater is ranked last, but they aren't serious contenders and that's the point. If Sasha Cohen had stayed with the sport, she would be a serious contender for bronze (maybe even silver) if facing Yun-a and Mao. Our other ladies have to step it up a notch in order to be serious contenders. Take 4CC as a prime example. Caroline had the skate of her life, and still placed 4th. I suppose you could say if the SP was also the SP skate of her life, she'd have had bronze. But requiring someone to have 2 skates of their lives back to back, just to earn bronze, isn't what I call a serious podium contender.

Anyway, I hope Rachael keeps making bold statements and fights to improve, and the others do the same.

 

[Tonichelle]

Sasha was having issues with illness and injury... you never knew which Sasha would show up to competition... I can't see her being a serious contender had she stayed in another four years.

 

[mhu714]

Yo Particle Man, I agree that in a Olympic style field, the current best US ladies are a bit inexperienced, making it difficult for any of them to medal. But in the right set of circumstances, I do in fact think 3rd place is not out of reach. Again, it's not like there are THAT many outstanding contenders out there. Kim and Asada are always the 2 faves, but neither are perfect as we've seen. Kim has mucho problems with the loop, and Mao sometimes under-rotates and does level 2 spins. And after them, then who? Kostner, Ando, Nakano, Rochette, Fumie S? No superstars there, for sure. Czisny, in particular, if she could skate 2 good programs, could do it. Of course, she is by far the most inconsistent jumper of the bunch. When you're as young as someone like Zhang or Nagasu, having "the skate of your life" is something that can keep happening, assuming they're getting better and better as they get older and more mature. Who knows how much better they'll be by Vancouver? Wagner has flair and personality on the ice but needs to focus more, which is also quite possible. Flatt is the most consistent and can do 3/3s, and I think is also capable of scoring highly. Which makes for great suspense and competition, which can't be bad right?

 

[Tinymavy15]

Ashley wasn't in the final group either, but she won the LP just the same. And actually, Caroline WAS in the final group. I remember because a lot of people were upset that Bebe, who was ahead of Caroline in the short due to that mistake, was shifted out of the final group to make room for Caroline so that she could be included in the NBC broadcast of the final group.

Just to break it down: total of 20 competitors in LP in 2008 Nats. Caroline skated #15, and there are 6 skaters in a warm up group. 20 - 6 = 14, but actually 15-20 is 6 skaters. Bebe skated #14, last in the second to last WUG.

Actually Bebe and Caroline were in the same warm up group in 2008. Caroline was the last skater in her group, which was the next-to-last. She brought down the house.

 

[AwesomeIce]

Someone on FSU reported seeing Caroline crying at practice sessions over the summer after trying to take off from the correct edge on her lutz and falling many times. Poor girl. She's been receiving the "!" mark for her lutzes instead of an "e" this season, so hopefully her hard work will eventually pay off. Cheer up, Caroline, many here at GS love and support you!

Still makes me sad she got gypped from participating at her 1st Worlds in her hometown. She and Rachael are both L.A. girls - crowd support seemed to do wonders for Alissa's PCS in Ohio, so who knows what could happen with Rachael and Caroline.

I don't think Caroline got gypped out of anything. IMO she was overscored at Nationals, if anything. She is so slow and her edges are dreadful and I can't even stand watching her jump, regardless of how consistent she is in staying on her feet. And she has zero personality on the ice. I've seen pebbles with more enthusiasm than her. Alissa and Rachel earned their spots over Caroline.

 

[PolymerBob]

I don't think Caroline got gypped out of anything. IMO she was overscored at Nationals, if anything. She is so slow and her edges are dreadful and I can't even stand watching her jump, regardless of how consistent she is in staying on her feet. And she has zero personality on the ice. I've seen pebbles with more enthusiasm than her. Alissa and Rachel earned their spots over Caroline.

Caroline is so slow and dull that the ISU installed electric shock devices in all the chairs to force people to stand up after her long. :sheesh:

 

[R.D.]

If Sasha Cohen had stayed with the sport, she would be a serious contender for bronze (maybe even silver) if facing Yun-a and Mao.

How do you know that? For all we know she could have been injured, gone through major struggle, the list goes on. We don't know because it didn't happen. IOW, that's PURE speculation. Toni is right.

 

[AwesomeIce]

Caroline is so slow and dull that the ISU installed electric shock devices in all the chairs to force people to stand up after her long. :sheesh:

To each their own. I think she's a drag.

 

[Particle Man]

How do you know that?

Talent perhaps? Point-scoring ability? Red Dog, you and Toni can agree with each other all day long, doesn't make you right. Sasha's 2-fall skates would score more points than most of our ladies' skates now, except their very best. Sasha was always skating against the highest expectations. Nowadays, our expectations for our best ladies are "we probably can't get 6th and 7th at Worlds." ...

Caroline is so slow and dull that the ISU installed electric shock devices in all the chairs to force people to stand up after her long. :sheesh:

I think that Caroline gets standing ovations for her Ave Maria program because:

- People like the edit of the music
- Her (slow) style of skating goes well with the music
- She ends with her signature "pearl" move which stuns people who haven't seen it or haven't seen it live

It's a great program for her. But, standing ovations don't necessarily equal high points in CoP. In fact, it seems like more often than not, they don't. Anyway, it seemed to work for her at 4CC, but what also worked was retooling her technique a bit.

 

[museksk8r]

Talent perhaps? Point-scoring ability? Red Dog, you and Toni can agree with each other all day long, doesn't make you right. Sasha's 2-fall skates would score more points than most of our ladies' skates now, except their very best. Sasha was always skating against the highest expectations. Nowadays, our expectations for our best ladies are "we probably can't get 6th and 7th at Worlds." ...

Talent alone cannot guarantee a skater stays at the top of figure skating. Otherwise, Nicole Bobek would have won pretty much everything in sight. Cohen hasn't even been seen landing anything in public since 2006, 3 years ago, more difficult than a 3Salchow, a 3toe, and a 2Axel. Yeah, a real world beater right there. :chorus:

As has been stated, it is pure speculation on your part to suggest Sasha would be a top 3 contender when the fact is she's been missing in action for so long and could very well have suffered a serious injury had she stayed in the competitive ranks. She was already limping along and suffering from lack of motivation and training at the 2006 Worlds where she was regarded as the overwhelming favorite to win only to barely capture a bronze medal due to her numerous mistakes in the QR and the LP.

 

[Particle Man]

Talent alone cannot guarantee a skater stays at the top of figure skating. Otherwise, Nicole Bobek would have won pretty much everything in sight.

Was Nicole Bobek an Olympic Silver Medalist? What, she came in 17th?

You fail.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Was Nicole Bobek an Olympic Silver Medalist? What, she came in 17th?

You fail.

There exists a serious eye to the talent of artistry, no matter what the scores show. Lambiel, for me, is the best skater, even if he came out dead last. Sasha had excellent acrobatic moves but, imo, her technical was weak, not bad, just weak.

 

[JOANNALV2SK8]

Some of you are looking past the almost inevitable (and I'd be sooo happy to be wrong) 2 world slots. And the lack of a 'star' skater at the moment. The devoted fans will be there for whoever represents US but I'm also worried about the downstreatm implications of generally reduced interest, little TV, and fewer little girls inspired to try it out. Sellout crowds in Korea, Japan... much smaller audiences here (like at Skate America)... I think it affects ladies field more than men (where the media still tries to bild up some drama), or pairs/dance. Sasha could possibly stir up things a bit - Fumie staged a semi-successful return... maybe that's what's needed to jump start the next wave.:scowl:

 

[mskater93]

I think we need to liven up the broadcasts. Maybe have Tonya and Nancy as commentators. Together....:chorus:

 

[Tonichelle]

thare are a lot of dedicated/serious fans who actually aren't freaking out aout having just two spots or no clear favorite ladies. Good grief there are three othe disiplines out there that the US has fairly decent chances with. If the ladies miss out on the spotlight this time around GOOD! It's their turn. They've been overshadowing everything else for decades. I for one am glad our men have been more successful lately. And our Dance! Holy cow! Who ever thought they'd see the day when we'd actually be competitive in a BIG WAY there???

Even pairs holds promise...

And it's not like the ladies are at the bottom of the pack, they're in the middle of the pack and by the next olympic cycle we'll have forgotten this little blip.

 

[Eurofan]

And it's not like the ladies are at the bottom of the pack, they're in the middle of the pack and by the next olympic cycle we'll have forgotten this little blip.

Very good point. The middle of the pack is not ideal, but it's not an hopeless disaster, either.

 

[museksk8r]

Was Nicole Bobek an Olympic Silver Medalist? What, she came in 17th?

You fail.

I see that the point of my post went over the top of your head, but that's not a surprise to me.

 

[R.D.]

Talent perhaps? Point-scoring ability? Red Dog, you and Toni can agree with each other all day long, doesn't make you right. Sasha's 2-fall skates would score more points than most of our ladies' skates now, except their very best. Sasha was always skating against the highest expectations. Nowadays, our expectations for our best ladies are "we probably can't get 6th and 7th at Worlds." ...

PM, I think I know you well enough to realize that there's no point in arguing with you so I will leave it at that. I do have a two-word response to your comment, though- and it is the following:

KIMMIE MEISSNER

'nough said.

 

[Particle Man]

I see that the point of my post went over the top of your head, but that's not a surprise to me.

How ironic, since the clear and painfully obvious points I make in every post are continually lost on you, and those like you. You live in a constant realm of logical fallacy.

Making the comparison of Cohen to Bobek is pure fail. Nothing more need be said. It COULD be said, yes. I could go on and on explaining the basic and obvious facts of why Cohen tops the skaters we have now, but it would be a waste of my time, because you don't listen.

I would leave you with the question "who among our current ladies is really as serious a contender as Sasha would be?" -- but that would just give you more opportunities to be wrong. And I'm honestly tired of listening to the wrongness here. But, feel free to answer it anyway. I'll try to be amused.

 

[LeCygne]

Actually Bebe and Caroline were in the same warm up group in 2008. Caroline was the last skater in her group, which was the next-to-last. She brought down the house.

Right, they still skated in the same group. That's why I don't understand why people were so upset that the order was shuffled around a bit.

I don't think Caroline got gypped out of anything. IMO she was overscored at Nationals, if anything. She is so slow and her edges are dreadful and I can't even stand watching her jump, regardless of how consistent she is in staying on her feet. And she has zero personality on the ice. I've seen pebbles with more enthusiasm than her. Alissa and Rachel earned their spots over Caroline.

This is not directed specifically at you or anything, but I just feel like in general, people are so stuck in certain mindsets that nothing will change the way they see things. Like so many people have it drilled into their heads "Caroline is slow" and they can't seem to notice the improvements and the speed that she is starting to pick up. It's like no matter what, she's always slow because that's the way it is. Of course she's no Carolina, but compared to her old self, she is gaining noticable speed, especially in this performance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuJlvuzAduI