Hersh on Scoring at Natls

[bekalc]

I think Trixie deserved her OGM because like Rachael, her performance was ranked higer under the existing rules of the time.

You can't compare the two situations. I'm of the opinion that it was about time they started making technical standards. Look at Sarah Hughes win for cheated jumps. That was ridiculous.

There are plenty of skaters internationally that can beat Flatt because they have artistry and correct technique on the jumps. The scoring system shouldn't change because the US doesn't have that girl.

The ISU could find itself in a situation where not a single Lady was able to meet the technical requirements of the Cop while delivering a beautiful, inspiring performance.

Oh come on. If anything you can see jumps are getting better amongst youngers. Gao has incredible jumps and is going to improve artistically. So does Agnes Z (she'll be beating Rachael soon)

Russia's Elizaveta has a trule lutz, a true flip, gorgeous yes rotated jumps and is clearly developing into an artist. There are girls who can meet both requirements and will.

 

[janetfan]

I seem to recall that they made some changes to give Janet a shot at the OGM, but Janet made mistakes.

And seriously in this case, I don't see why the ISU would make changes just because Rachael beat Mirai. I mean no offense but there are plenty of skaters out there who are capable of delivering strong technical programs-and connecting with the audience. (even more than Mirai)

It was following the 72 Olympics that the rules were changed. And yes, Janet made mistakes in the newly added SP that cost her the Gold medal at '73 Worlds.

After watching so much skating this season I disagree a little about how well the Ladies are doing with CoP.

I saw more sloppy skating and it was rare indeed when we saw a great program this season. Yuna at TEB comes to mind, Akiko too.

The other favorites including Miki, Mao,Joannie, Caro and Laura struggled this season.

ETA: The two situations are very similar. Crowds left arenas puzzled that Janet did not win. In France a Worlds podium was booed loud and long when Janet, who won the free skate only finished fouth.

To say Mirai finishing second did not puzzle or surprise many is simply untrue.

I was being facetious about this but I believe ISU will be forced to make changes if this keeps happening.

 

[bekalc]

It was following the 72 Olympics that the rules were changed. And yes, Janet made mistakes in the newly added SP that cost her the Gold medal at '73 Worlds.

After watching so much skating this season I disagree a little about how well the Ladies are doing with CoP.

I saw more sloppy skating and it was rare indeed when we saw a great program this season. Yuna at TEB comes to mind, Akiko too.

The other favorites including Miki, Mao,Joannie, Caro andLaura struggled this season.

And that's because of COP? I agree that Mao perhaps is making some of her choices because of the new crackdowns. But do you seriously want to argue that it was fair for the ISU to ignore flutzs? I mean it was frankly ridiculous and justly unfair to those who could do the 3lutz correctly. Like Joannie and Caro who both do pure 3lutzs and 3flips.

In Joannie, Caro, and Miki's case I don't think COP has anything to do with those issues. I think nerves and pressure are the problem here. If anything Rachael would probably have an easier time of moving up in 6.0 (altogether) because there landing 7 triples was HUGE.

But as I said earlier if you look at the juniors there are plenty of girls who are coming up who are handling the jumping rules well.

And in the issue with Janet too, I want to say that it might be telling that she messed up in the short program. What I mean by that is figures was all about nerves and being able to deliver under pressure...By the time free skates rolled around, Janet was essentially already out of the gold hunt and so it was a lot easier IMO to skate with freedom and joy.

 

[gkelly]

After watching so much skating this season I disagree a little about how well the Ladies are doing with CoP.

I saw more sloppy skating and it was rare indeed when we saw a great program this season.

Ah, but how much sloppy skating did you see in 1991 or 93 or 97 or 2001 fall competitions? It's nothing new.

 

[janetfan]

Ah, but how much sloppy skating did you see in 1991 or 93 or 97 or 2001 fall competitions? It's nothing new.

But I also saw much more great skating - or perhaps my taste is too old fashioned for you.

 

[gkelly]

Well, taste is taste. You can like whatever you like, which may not be the same thing today's skaters like.

But sloppy performances in early-season competitions, especially from ladies on the hard jumps, is a recurring theme regardless of judging system.

 

[janetfan]

And that's because of COP? I agree that Mao perhaps is making some of her choices because of the new crackdowns. But do you seriously want to argue that it was fair for the ISU to ignore flutzs? I mean it was frankly ridiculous and justly unfair to those who could do the 3lutz correctly. Like Joannie and Caro who both do pure 3lutzs and 3flips.

But as I said earlier if you look at the juniors there are plenty of girls who are coming up who are handling the jumping rules well.

And in the issue with Janet too, I want to say that it might be telling that she messed up in the short program. What I mean by that is figures was all about nerves and being able to deliver under pressure...By the time free skates rolled around, Janet was essentially already out of the gold hunt and so it was a lot easier IMO to skate with freedom and joy.

Am I seriously arguing that "flutzes should be ignored - or am I disagreeing that too many of the calls that are invisble to the audience are leaving fans puzzled. Quite a difference IMO in what I said and what you said.

Do you think I am unaware of young skaters landing 3x3's at age 14 and then struggling as they mature? A strange point for you to bring up here.

Do you think that there was something wrong with Janet skating with freedom and joy despite the circumstances which BTW is only your opinion.

Sorry, I disagree with your post.

 

[janetfan]

Well, taste is taste. You can like whatever you like, which may not be the same thing today's skaters like.

.

Are you speaking for today's skaters now?
Have you spoken with Mirai and asked her how she feels about some of the ur calls? I serious doubt that she likes them anymore than Mao does.

 

[Figure88]

It was following the 72 Olympics that the rules were changed. And yes, Janet made mistakes in the newly added SP that cost her the Gold medal at '73 Worlds.

After watching so much skating this season I disagree a little about how well the Ladies are doing with CoP.

I saw more sloppy skating and it was rare indeed when we saw a great program this season. Yuna at TEB comes to mind, Akiko too.

The other favorites including Miki, Mao,Joannie, Caro and Laura struggled this season.

ETA: The two situations are very similar. Crowds left arenas puzzled that Janet did not win. In France a Worlds podium was booed loud and long when Janet, who won the free skate only finished fouth.

To say Mirai finishing second did not puzzle or surprise many is simply untrue.

I was being facetious about this but I believe ISU will be forced to make changes if this keeps happening.

What we're seeing now is a direct consequence of 6.0 era. I don't know why you're blaming COP. 6.0 system didn't do enough to crack down on skaters who used cheated technique and in fact rewarded them. Coaches of this era seeing this didn't emphasize correct technique and probably taught the girls how to cheat. This might provide some short-term benefits to some "fans", but I don't think it is good for the sport in the long term to reward cheated technique. I mean, which sport does that? This not only undermines the integrity of the sport but lowers the morale of the skaters in general. I don't it's impossible to for artistic skaters to master correct jumping technique (look at lithe skaters like Gao), it's only that they were initially taught by coaches from the 6.0 era that we're seeing so many girls who can't do the jumps properly.

 

[bekalc]

Am I seriously arguing that "flutzes should be ignored - or am I disagreeing that too many of the calls that are invisble to the audience are leaving fans puzzled. Quite a difference IMO in what I said and what you said.

Do you think I am unaware of young skaters landing 3x3's at age 14 and then struggling as they mature? A strange point for you to bring up here.

Do you think that there was something wrong with Janet skating with freedom and joy despite the circumstances which BTW is only your opinion.

Sorry, I disagree with your post.

I'm asking if Janet really skated with joy in that short program when she fell twice. I'm suggesting that perhaps its easier to skate with joy when a gold medal is not on the line. I.e people can rail and criticize Tara LIpinski all they want but the fact that she was able to skate with so much joy with the Olympic gold medal on the line is incredible. Its difficult very difficult to do.

I'm not talking about Elizaveta's 3/3s, I"m talking about her jumping technique. Its a fact that she has a true lutz and a true flip. And she has great rotation. She does the jumps correctly, and that's half the battle when it comes to surviving puberty. Its hard to know in the end, but my suspician is that she's the real deal.

Agnes Z and Christina Gao are both 15, and have great jumps still.... The facts are once again that now that coaches are teaching kids to jump correctly, I' m willing to bet in the future we will have less of these issues.

And as for well the audience can't see, I'm willing to bet you that most casual fans don't know the difference between a 3flutz and a real 3lutz let alone the difference between a 3lutz and a 3toe, does that mean that we should just do away with point values altogether? Ridiculous. There's a reason we have judges. What can be done is to educate fans. To explain to them why it is important to deduct hard for cheated jumps. Why to deduct hard for 3lutzs and 3flips. Yes calls might be disputed, but calls are disputed in every freakin sport.

Even my mother who is a casual fan and did think Mirai was better, changed her mind when I explained to her about rotations. Her words were this: I guess Mirai didn't perform better than.

I mean in gymanstics they deduct for all kinds of things the casual audience doesn't see.

 

[janetfan]

What we're seeing now is a direct consequence of 6.0 era. I don't know why you're blaming COP. 6.0 system didn't do enough to crack down on skaters who used cheated technique and in fact rewarded them. Coaches of this era seeing this didn't emphasize correct technique and probably taught the girls how to cheat. This might provide some short-term benefits to some "fans", but I don't think it is good for the sport in the long term to reward cheated technique. I mean, which sport does that? This not only undermines the integrity of the sport but lowers the morale of the skaters in general. I don't it's impossible to for artistic skaters to master correct jumping technique (look at lithe skaters like Gao), it's only that they were initially taught by coaches from the 6.0 era that we're seeing so many girls who can't do the jumps properly.

Here is a point that puzzles me. I sense such an indignity from certain posters about the "cheated jumps."

What I don't understand is how something that many times you CAN'T SEE in real time is the cause for such anguish?

Why doesn't it bother Button or Scott who still judge the entire performance and don't get obsessed with a few degrees difference over a rotation or position of the blade on the ice that is sometime a matter of a quarter of an inch?

I am not saying jumps should not get penalized. I have said it bothers me if it looks like a tech panel is showing some favoritism or making calls from one camera angle without irrefutable proof.

I know that Yuna was bothered and DID NOT LIKE her dg at the GPF. Review of that dg did not show anything close to irrefutable proof but it did possibly show that politics or incompetence were involved.

If I see a jump on TV or at the arena I simply want to enjoy the the jump. I could care less if I can't see the mistakes. Scott sort of feels the same way as does Jenny Kirk.

I do think if we see alot more of disagreement or puzzlement from live audiences ISU may consider some changes. Surely the "purists" here don't want to see skating become even less of a niche sport than it already is?

 

[bekalc]

Here is a point that puzzles me. I sense such an indignity from certain posters about the "cheated jumps."

What I don't understand is how something that many times you CAN'T SEE in real time is the cause for such anguish?

Why doesn't it bother Button or Scott who still judge the entire performance and don't get obsessed with a few degrees difference over a rotation or position of the blade on the ice that is sometime a matter of a quarter of an inch?

I am not saying jumps should not get penalized. I have said it bothers me if it looks like a tech panel is showing some favoritism or making calls from one camera angle without irrefutable proof.

I know that Yuna was bothered and DID NOT LIKE her dg at the GPF. Review of that dg did not show anything close to irrefutable proof but it did possibly show that politics or incompetence were involved.

Yet some claim Yuna and other skater like getting edge calls or receiving dg's?

I don't believe that is a true statement and is nothing more than an opinion.

If I see a jump on TV or at the arena I simply want to enjoy the the jump. I could care less if I can't see the mistakes. Scott sort of feels the same way as does Jenny Kirk.

I do think if we see alot more of disagreement or puzzlement from live audiences ISU may consider some changes. Surely the "purists" here don't want to see skating become even less of a niche sport than it already is?

Yu-na might not like it when she gets downgrades and Edge calls. But I have a hard time thinking that she was truly upset when Asada started getting punished for her obvious flutz. I know that Irina Slutskaya was ticked off about Sarah Hughes getting rewarded for her jumping issues.

So while I doubt that skaters like getting called on things themselves. I'm sure that skaters who have made an effort to learn correct jumping technique, are probably glad that they can know be rewarded for this.

I'm sure there are skaters out there who would disagree with Scott, Sandra, and Dick.

 

[janetfan]

I'm sure there are skaters out there who would disagree with Scott, Sandra, and Dick.

I am sure there are just as many who might agree with them too.

But I agree with you more than you might think.

Earbuds were mentioned a few days ago by Chuck. I think that is a good idea

I think the replay is OK but it needs to be improved. ISU is reported to be hurting for bucks but I bet if they would lose the secrecy of the replays that various TV networls would add more cameras and then we could see if these calls are actually correct.

I have seen too many calls I disagree with but unfortunately I am not seeing this from several angles and in slow -mo.

This is not that hard of a thing to do. Add a few cams, and share the replay with the fans. It could help put an end to suspicions and even make the viewers more interested.

 

[Daniel5555]

janetfan
The problem with Yuna was that she got unfair DG, that's what most of the experts and even posters from here thought. Then, fair DGs for underrotated jumps are good in my opinion for the reason that bekalc explained. Cheating is bad.

This is not that hard of a thing to do. Add a few cams, and share the replay with the fans. It could help put an end to suspicions and even make the viewers more interested.

I fully agree with this. It can be fully automated, as well.

 

[bekalc]

I am sure there are just as many who might agree with them too.

But I agree with you more than you might think.

Earbuds were mentioned a few days ago by Chuck. I think that is a good idea

I think the replay is OK but it needs to be improved. ISU is reported to be hurting for bucks but I bet if they would lose the secrecy of the replays that various TV networls would add more cameras and then we could see if these calls are actually correct.

I have seen too many calls I disagree with but unfortunately I am not seeing this from several angles and in slow -mo.

This is not that hard of a thing to do. Add a few cams, and share the replay with the fans. It could help put an end to suspicions and even make the viewers more interested.

But in the end Janet, I dont' think its fair to say well how does Yu-na feel about her ! call or Asada feel about her E calls. I think its more fair to ask Caroline Kostner and Joannie Rochette-two skaters who have true lutzs and true flips. If they felt that the previous system was fair. After all they were the ones who did the hard work to do both jumps correctly and until recently got no reward for that fact.

 

[gkelly]

Are you speaking for today's skaters now?
Have you spoken with Mirai and asked her how she feels about some of the ur calls? I serious doubt that she likes them anymore than Mao does.

No, but I'm not talking about the UR calls here in any case. I'm responding to your saying that you saw more "great skating" under the old system and sloppy skating now.

reigning world champ and soon-to-be Olympic gold medalist losing Skate America

reigning world champ and soon-to-be Olympic gold medalist winning Skate America

reigning world champ and soon-to-be Olympic gold medalist losing Trophee Lalique

reigning world champ losing Skate Canada

and for comparison, under the IJS,

reigning world champ losing the GPF

reigning world champ losing the FS at Skate America

Make of them what you will.

 

[janetfan]

But in the end Janet, I dont' think its fair to say well how does Yu-na feel about her ! call or Asada feel about her E calls. I think its more fair to ask Caroline Kostner and Joannie Rochette-two skaters who have true lutzs and true flips. If they felt that the previous system was fair. After all they were the ones who did the hard work to do both jumps correctly and until recently got no reward for that fact.

When you say Joannie or Caro worked hard I can appreciate that. Does that mean to imply other skaters don't work as hard?

I think all skaters are obviously working very hard and think they do the best they can. If they flutz it may be harder or impossible in cases to correct it.

Many feel Caro does not have the best 2A. Does that mean she was lazy about working on 2A's - or mabye she does the best she can. :yes:

Some are disappointed that Joannie is not doing a 3x3. Does that mean Joannie was too lazy to work on a 3x3 or maybe it is something she can't get to be consistent enough?

Is Yuna therefore a harder worker than Joannie because she has a great 3x3?

See the point is problematic and it feels wrong to base a scoring system on two skaters.

 

[bekalc]

When you say Joannie or Caro worked hard I can appreciate that. Does that mean to imply other skaters don't work as hard?

I think all skaters are obviously working very hard and think they do the best they can. If they flutz it may be harder or impossible in cases to correct it.

Many feel Caro does not have the best 2A. Does that mean she was lazy about working on 2A's - or mabye she does the best she can. :yes:

Some are disappointed that Joannie is not doing a 3x3. Does that mean Joannie was too lazy to work on a 3x3 or maybe it is something she can't get to be consistent enough?

Is Yuna therefore a harder worker than Joannie because she has a great 3x3?

See the point is problematic and it feels wrong to base a scoring system on two skaters.

But Yu-na gets rewarded when she does her 3/3. And Caro's bad technique on her double axel means problems with landing the jump. Her double axel still was a double axel though. But she pays for the bad technique there when she doesn't land it.

Kostner and Rochette under the previous system were not getting rewarded for doing true lutzs and true flips. That's not fair. They deserved to be rewarded for this. If some can't do both that's fine, but they shouldn't get the same credit as those who were doing both correctly. That's the point. The i and E rules are more about ensuring that the people who do those jumps correctly get more credit than those who don't do those jumps correctly. Why is this hard and ridiculous to suggest. You don't see Joannie getting credit for 3/3s she doesn't do. Why should Mao get credit for a 3lutz-she doesn't do.

 

[i love to skate]

See the point is problematic and it feels wrong to base a scoring system on two skaters.

How is it problematic? The COP gives deductions for wrong technique - something 6.0 never did. Is that a bad thing? If you can't do an element - say Joannie's 3-3 or YuNa's loop - leave it out.

 

[janetfan]

No, but I'm not talking about the UR calls here in any case. I'm responding to your saying that you saw more "great skating" under the old system and sloppy skating now.

reigning world champ and soon-to-be Olympic gold medalist losing Skate America

reigning world champ and soon-to-be Olympic gold medalist winning Skate America

reigning world champ and soon-to-be Olympic gold medalist losing Trophee Lalique

reigning world champ losing Skate Canada

and for comparison, under the IJS,

reigning world champ losing the GPF

reigning world champ losing the FS at Skate America

Make of them what you will.

I haven't looked at them yet - but am sure they are examples to support "your taste."

Don't you think I could just as easily post a bunch of links that would support "my taste.?"

I hardly think it is worth the bother. But since you did take the time to post these links I will look at them. I think you already have my answer though.