How should ISU address potentially dangerous elements?

[4everchan]

Patrick Chan also included, at a very venerable age, the quad Salchow. He had done it in practice earlier in 2011... but never included them later on because he didn't need them or at least, he didn't think he did. When he returned to competition, he realized he had to and brought it back and performed it at the GPF in 2016 and Nationals in 2017 at the age of 27. He originally had them planned for the Olympic season, and even included it early in his Dust in the Wind SP (Detroit competition in the summer I believe) but then he got into a funk and his desire to skate clean programs made him water down his programs and he removed the salchow.

 

[Mathman]

morissey never jumped a clean quad toe loop in his career

What was wrong with his 4T at worlds? He got positive GOE on it -- mostly 1s and 0s.

 

[4everchan]

What was wrong with his 4T at worlds? He got positive GOE on it -- mostly 1s and 0s.

his toe loops look like salchows.

 

[sisinka]

morissey never jumped a clean quad toe loop in his career

Morisi doesn’t have good jumping technique. In term “clean“ I meant positive GOE, not textbook technique.

 

[sisinka]

Patrick Chan also included, at a very venerable age, the quad Salchow. He had done it in practice earlier in 2011... but never included them later on because he didn't need them or at least, he didn't think he did. When he returned to competition, he realized he had to and brought it back and performed it at the GPF in 2016 and Nationals in 2017 at the age of 27.

Thanks for information. I forgot he landed quad salchow in past. Patrick was born in December 1990, so at National and World Championships 2017 – I believe he was 26 years old.

 

[4everchan]

Thanks for information. I forgot he landed quad salchow in past. Patrick was born in December 1990, so at National and World Championships 2017 – I believe he was 26 years old.

That's correct. He was born in December and I just didn't do the maths. He was closer to 27 when he landed his last quad salchow at the small summer event but definitely 27 for his last quad toes.

 

[sisinka]

Thank you for this mentions.

I do believe that Level 4 Features offer more variants, so even naturally more rigid skaters can fulfil criterias. I definitely never want to see a skater being "punished" for his anatomy.

Because body anatomy and flexibility must be taken into account.

Some skaters have naturally more loose ligaments which allows them to be more flexible. Doing flexility exercises since childhood helps a lot in loosing ligaments as well. Many skaters are hypermobile in one or more joints and loose ligaments play smaller part in it.

But not everybody is hypermobile.

Joint's anatomy is essential coming to range of motion. Some people have joint anatomy which decreases range of motion in some directions. You cannot do anything with it despite how much or long you practise.

And if you try to get into the position which your joint is not build for - you always use wrong movement stereotypes overloading other body segments...which will lead to injury sooner or later.

I remember Miki Ando being criticized A LOT by American commentators (Dick Button, Peggy Flemming?...I am not sure). They didn't like her low flexibility especially in Spiral Sequence. From my medical view, I am almost sure that Miki has hip joint anatomy with reduced range of motion into hip extension (leg behind) and external rotation. So for her it was impossible to get proper position on classical spiral with leg behind or in Bielmann position. Some commentators never forgot to mention it, not thinking even for one second how strange it is that workoholic Japanese lady who is doing flexibility exercises for years (like everybody in figure skating) has so small range of motion in one direction.

Another part are shortened muscles or fascias or myofascial lines which decrease range of motion, it is another reason to have regular Rehabilitation treatment. I am surprised how many elite skaters are fighting with it (as it is visible even when they simply stand on the ice). I do understand that Figure Skating is expensive, but proper Rehabilitation is injury saving or injury postponing thing...it really does have sense.

As I've said in other threads, I've known many skaters, gymnasts and dancers who, like me, were born with Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome which gives us natural hypermobility. We gravitate to activities that reward that. In the last Olympics, when I saw one skater take an opening pose by linking her hands behind her back, the left hand coming down from over her shoulder and the right coming up from waist height, I had to laugh. Standard EDS party trick. My mother could still do that easily in her 80s. When commentators raved about the same skater's free leg elevation on jump landings, I thought, "Drop around to my rink some time. I'm not half the skater she is, but that's how I've always done spirals and jump landings."

On the other hand, most skaters I know with EDS prefer to be overbooted because we sprain ankles easily, and those of us in pairs do more than the usual strength training for the upper back and arms for lifts because our arm joints tend to come apart more easily.

I believe that this topic belongs more to this Thread.

1) Joint's anatomy which reduces range of motion into certain directions or
2) Hypermobility including skaters with hypermobile type of Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome

...ARE another important topics which should be discussed.

I do believe that ISU or / and Skating Federations should be aware of these topics and should lead their coaching teams, skating parents and skaters themselves to get educated.
To avoid of LONG journey with injuries and pain....which could be at least partially prevented.
The sooner problem (both hypermobility / decreased range of motion in certain joint) is mentioned the better for skater to adapt and adjust to the situation.

I didn't find any mentions about these topics googling, not at ISU, not at any Federation's pages.


I have few questions for @Diana Delafield , if you wouldn't mind to share it with us.

1) Is there any knowledge how big is percentage of skaters having Ehlers Danlos Syndrome? I didn't find anything on Internet, just few mentions that it is more common in figure skating and gymnastics.

2) In what age you were diagnosed with Ehlers-Danlos syndrome and who initiated it?

3) Did some coaches gave you any advices about hypermobility or additional strengthening exercises? Or you had to find out yourself...?

4) Do you know skaters with such hypermobility who would get joint dislocation without fall? On elite level? Because I suppose that people with such high hypermobility are not able to stay in figure skating on elite level as number of injuries is not allowing it.

 

[Diana Delafield]

I believe that this topic belongs more to this Thread.

1) Joint's anatomy which reduces range of motion into certain directions or
2) Hypermobility including skaters with hypermobile type of Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome

...ARE another important topics which should be discussed.

I do believe that ISU or / and Skating Federations should be aware of these topics and should lead their coaching teams, skating parents and skaters themselves to get educated.
To avoid of LONG journey with injuries and pain....which could be at least partially prevented.
The sooner problem (both hypermobility / decreased range of motion in certain joint) is mentioned the better for skater to adapt and adjust to the situation.

I didn't find any mentions about these topics googling, not at ISU, not at any Federation's pages.


I have few questions for @Diana Delafield , if you wouldn't mind to share it with us.

I can give you some answers, but I'm afraid you won't find them quite what you need. EDS has been running in my mother's family for generations and we tend to take it quite casually, like the relatives on my father's side take having red hair and a tendency to freckle and burn in the sun. No more attention paid to our quirky syndrome than that, really.

1) Is there any knowledge how big is percentage of skaters having Ehlers Danlos Syndrome? I didn't find anything on Internet, just few mentions that it is more common in figure skating and gymnastics.

I've never seen any statistics for skaters, gymnasts, or dancers. About five (?) years ago there was going to be a study done on EDS in general at the Women's Hospital (although EDS is not restricted to women) in Vancouver, BC, and my family doctor talked me into being a study subject as someone with an average, easily manageable level of it. I spent a day at the hospital being tested and interviewed, but never heard anything more about it. I think their funding got suspended and the study never got going again, that I know of. I did gather that studies were few and far between, and what there was concentrated on those with serious versions who were not able to take advantage of their syndrome by getting involved in sports or dance.

2) In what age you were diagnosed with Ehlers-Danlos syndrome and who initiated it?

I've known all my life, I guess since my older relatives noticing me being more flexible than most toddlers and just said, "Oh, we've got another one here, do we?" It wasn't a diagnosis in the medical sense. My mother had it, two of my four brothers, our grandmother and several of her siblings. Everyone knows the signs. If you can do our party tricks like bending over with no warming up, no knee bend, and put your hands flat on the floor between your feet, and then walk your hands back so they end up still flat on the floor but behind your feet.....you've got EDS. (My mother could still do that one in her 80s.)

3) Did some coaches gave you any advices about hypermobility or additional strengthening exercises? Or you had to find out yourself...?

My first coach was my grandmother's cousin and she had EDS herself. There wasn't any need for advice or discussion of it, not with me anyway. I was in kindergarten, taking skating lessons, Highland dance lessons, tumbling lessons. There may have been some discussion between my grandmother, mother and family-member-coach, but I never heard about it. I was probably steered the right way without realizing it. When I took up pairs in my mid-teens, my coach did tell me to work more on strengthening exercises for my arms and upper back since I was going to have to lock my elbows in lifts, and needed a solid core, "and you know the way your elbows and shoulders wobble around because your joints are looser than some of the other girls". I guess I did the right things, but that was a very long time ago. Around 1970 somewhere? A lot of memory cells have fallen by the wayside since then! Whatever I did must have worked, because I'm still pairs skating, for fun now.

4) Do you know skaters with such hypermobility who would get joint dislocation without fall? On elite level? Because I suppose that people with such high hypermobility are not able to stay in figure skating on elite level as number of injuries is not allowing it.

No, not personally, not in skating. I remember one boy having to drop out of ballet and a girl my daughter knew from rhythmic gymnastics, both in their early teens, because of frequent dislocations, and I'm fairly sure I heard they both had more serious EDS variants than I did, but as you say, people like that don't last long in sports at even a low level. People with an EDS variant that enhances their athletic ability rather than hinders it are the ones who make it to the elite level.

Not too much help to you, I'm afraid. Where you could find out more would be from the few societies for rare diseases, but I don't recall any specific names. I did belong to one for a few years out of curiosity, but all I remember is that the name was something to do with zebras. As in the medical school dictum about diagnosing from symptoms: If you hear hoofbeats, think first of horses, not zebras. People with rare syndromes like to think of themselves as zebras.

 

[sisinka]

I can give you some answers, but I'm afraid you won't find them quite what you need. EDS has been running in my mother's family for generations and we tend to take it quite casually, like the relatives on my father's side take having red hair and a tendency to freckle and burn in the sun. No more attention paid to our quirky syndrome than that, really.

I've never seen any statistics for skaters, gymnasts, or dancers. About five (?) years ago there was going to be a study done on EDS in general at the Women's Hospital (although EDS is not restricted to women) in Vancouver, BC, and my family doctor talked me into being a study subject as someone with an average, easily manageable level of it. I spent a day at the hospital being tested and interviewed, but never heard anything more about it. I think their funding got suspended and the study never got going again, that I know of. I did gather that studies were few and far between, and what there was concentrated on those with serious versions who were not able to take advantage of their syndrome by getting involved in sports or dance.


I've known all my life, I guess since my older relatives noticing me being more flexible than most toddlers and just said, "Oh, we've got another one here, do we?" It wasn't a diagnosis in the medical sense. My mother had it, two of my four brothers, our grandmother and several of her siblings. Everyone knows the signs. If you can do our party tricks like bending over with no warming up, no knee bend, and put your hands flat on the floor between your feet, and then walk your hands back so they end up still flat on the floor but behind your feet.....you've got EDS. (My mother could still do that one in her 80s.)

My first coach was my grandmother's cousin and she had EDS herself. There wasn't any need for advice or discussion of it, not with me anyway. I was in kindergarten, taking skating lessons, Highland dance lessons, tumbling lessons. There may have been some discussion between my grandmother, mother and family-member-coach, but I never heard about it. I was probably steered the right way without realizing it. When I took up pairs in my mid-teens, my coach did tell me to work more on strengthening exercises for my arms and upper back since I was going to have to lock my elbows in lifts, and needed a solid core, "and you know the way your elbows and shoulders wobble around because your joints are looser than some of the other girls". I guess I did the right things, but that was a very long time ago. Around 1970 somewhere? A lot of memory cells have fallen by the wayside since then! Whatever I did must have worked, because I'm still pairs skating, for fun now.


No, not personally, not in skating. I remember one boy having to drop out of ballet and a girl my daughter knew from rhythmic gymnastics, both in their early teens, because of frequent dislocations, and I'm fairly sure I heard they both had more serious EDS variants than I did, but as you say, people like that don't last long in sports at even a low level. People with an EDS variant that enhances their athletic ability rather than hinders it are the ones who make it to the elite level.

Not too much help to you, I'm afraid. Where you could find out more would be from the few societies for rare diseases, but I don't recall any specific names. I did belong to one for a few years out of curiosity, but all I remember is that the name was something to do with zebras. As in the medical school dictum about diagnosing from symptoms: If you hear hoofbeats, think first of horses, not zebras. People with rare syndromes like to think of themselves as zebras.

Thank you for answers, I appreciate it.
It was an interesting read. I believe that sharing own experience publicly may help other people who fight with these problems.

Unfortunately many health troubles are overlooked till skater / athlete starts to have big troubles or starts to be in big pain. But troubles and pain means decompensation. It is always much better to solve things before they decompensate - it goes much faster and much more easy. After decompensation it very often happens that some things will never be repaired. Once you destroy cartilago or bone or rupture muscles, it will never get into healthy state like it was before the injury.

I heard about "zebra's pages", I remember reading that sentence about zebra and horse.

Some skaters were doing ballet or gymnastics on full time level during childhood simultaneously with figure skating. Some were pretty successful. Juulia Turkkila danced at the Opera's ballet school until she was 13 years old. Emanuel Sandhu graduated from National Ballet School of Canada.

Both gymnastics and ballet are concentrating on increasing flexibility. And overlooking child hypermobility not concentrating on strengthening exercises and good stabilization of joint - may increase health troubles in teenager age.

Figure skaters have very often flat feet (which is also quite common in hypermobile people). If not properly corrected with insolves and exercises - it will negatively influence mainly (but not only) ankle joint. Ankle will be in valgus position (pronation), more prone to spraining, ligament injury, cartilago will be destroyed sooner and artrosis will come sooner as well.
Having naturally too loose ankle joint thanks to hypermobility...and not taking care about flat feet with its consequences...that is very bad combination.

By the way reading your story I had a flashback - Alisa Czisny had terrible injury. In 2013 she dislocated her hip joint after fall in jump. Which is very rare injury. I remember she was very flexible lady. So this kind of injury offers the idea of hypermobility. But I also suspect specific hip joint anatomy. Acetabulum is a part of hip joint (cavity for thigh bone). Smaller depth of acetabulum and smaller acetabular depth-to-width ratio will be associated with bigger possibility of dislocation.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Thank you for answers, I appreciate it.
It was an interesting read. I believe that sharing own experience publicly may help other people who fight with these problems.

Unfortunately many health troubles are overlooked till skater / athlete starts to have big troubles or starts to be in big pain. But troubles and pain means decompensation. It is always much better to solve things before they decompensate - it goes much faster and much more easy. After decompensation it very often happens that some things will never be repaired. Once you destroy cartilago or bone or rupture muscles, it will never get into healthy state like it was before the injury.

I heard about "zebra's pages", I remember reading that sentence about zebra and horse.

Some skaters were doing ballet or gymnastics on full time level during childhood simultaneously with figure skating. Some were pretty successful. Juulia Turkkila danced at the Opera's ballet school until she was 13 years old. Emanuel Sandhu graduated from National Ballet School of Canada.

Both gymnastics and ballet are concentrating on increasing flexibility. And overlooking child hypermobility not concentrating on strengthening exercises and good stabilization of joint - may increase health troubles in teenager age.

Figure skaters have very often flat feet (which is also quite common in hypermobile people). If not properly corrected with insolves and exercises - it will negatively influence mainly (but not only) ankle joint. Ankle will be in valgus position (pronation), more prone to spraining, ligament injury, cartilago will be destroyed sooner and artrosis will come sooner as well.
Having naturally too loose ankle joint thanks to hypermobility...and not taking care about flat feet with its consequences...that is very bad combination.

By the way reading your story I had a flashback - Alisa Czisny had terrible injury. In 2013 she dislocated her hip joint after fall in jump. Which is very rare injury. I remember she was very flexible lady. So this kind of injury offers the idea of hypermobility. But I also suspect specific hip joint anatomy. Acetabulum is a part of hip joint (cavity for thigh bone). Smaller depth of acetabulum and smaller acetabular depth-to-width ratio will be associated with bigger possibility of dislocation.

I guess my two grandmothers collaborated . One of them gave me the EDS (which we don't consider a disorder or problem in our family, just a physical quirk like being left-handed or red-haired). The other grandmother bequeathed me her small feet with very high arches. I guess whether one sees any of those as problems that need to be addressed depends on the severity and also a lot on one's generation. So many things being diagnosed and treated and having adaptations made for nowadays that were just shrugged off in my era!

 

[sisinka]

... I guess whether one sees any of those as problems that need to be addressed depends on the severity and also a lot on one's generation. So many things being diagnosed and treated and having adaptations made for nowadays that were just shrugged off in my era!

Good mention.

As to severity:
There is the proverb: Dripping water hollows out stone, not through force but through persistence.

Certain body anatomy means predisposition to certain muscle imbalances, certain joint overloading and sooner certain joint / soft tissue damage. Muscle imbalances, joint's wrong position is predisposition to chronic health troubles. Thanks to big demands in today's sport all those injuries will come sooner and will be more serious.

Overloading is big problem in today's world in non sport population. It is only enlarged in sport population.

For example looking at landings in jumps - which is probably the main reason for overloading leading to stress fractures in Figure Skating - looking at Internet landing force is equal to 5 to 8 times of your weight (original calculation is in Newtons). Every minor thing in your body posture or strengthening matters when your body handles such forces in landings.

Rehabilitations specialists are not only for saying to you how you look at the moment. Based of posture, movement stereotypes...we can see what kind of health problems you will handle if you don't change things.

As to different generations:
I agree that many things were overlooked in past. I also think that previous sport generations lived in different times - no mental coaches and psychologists, no warning about eating disorders and so on. Practises didn't take as much time. Physical demands were lower.

But still it is great to take experience from previous generations and get inspired. Their knowledge may help an athlete to improve, to avoid mistakes. I like watching documentaries about Figure Skating - old or new.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pf33AnNrLIg - I remember this documentary - opening talks of first 1:20 minute were so lovely describing what Figure Skating is.