Is Johnny Weir America's Great Hope for Gold in Torino?

[Vash01]

Andromica - I think you understand what pleases you and that's what it should be. I see Plushenko as one who mugs the audiences and Joubert as the great stoneface. (I have hope for Joubert to get a more formidable style but I think Plushenko has reached his personal style.) But that's me. That's what I see. both those skaters are very seasoned and have been competiting in seniors for some time.

You seem to come down hard on the youngest kid in the Men's division. Is it more than just the confusing difference between artistry and presentation?

BTW, How are you with Lindemann and Lambiel. Both of whom are ranked higher than Johnny in world competition. There is also a big favorite of mine, Klimkin. I see Klimkin and Lambiel as the best in artistry in Men's figure skating. But again, that's me! And you don't have to agree with me. You may like whomever you please. It's what presentation is all about. Even the judges will admit it is the subjective part of figure skating.

Cheers - Joe

Artistry may be subjective, but presentation is not. It is not completely objective, but it was not completely subjective, even in the 6.0 system. There are definite criteria for presentation. As human beings we interpret those differently, and that is OK, as far as I am concerned. Every time there is a difference of opinions the blame is placed on the subjective nature of presentation marks. In reality there is a need for a better understanding of the criteria and how they are being applied. I would not want to see everything computerized (and I am an engineer, so that says something). As humans we should be allowed to think, feel and react differently- and have these long discussions too.

Back to Johnny's presentation- yes, he is new and he is still developing. May be he has been working on being consistent in the technical part of his skating. Artistry/presentation/expression may develop between now and sometime in the future. That future could be 2006 or 2010 or somewhere in between. I think the 2005 worlds might indicate if he is moving fast enough in the presentation aspect of his skating.

Vash

 

[andromica]

Andromica - I think you understand what pleases you and that's what it should be. I see Plushenko as one who mugs the audiences and Joubert as the great stoneface. (I have hope for Joubert to get a more formidable style but I think Plushenko has reached his personal style.) But that's me. That's what I see. both those skaters are very seasoned and have been competiting in seniors for some time.

You seem to come down hard on the youngest kid in the Men's division. Is it more than just the confusing difference between artistry and presentation?

BTW, How are you with Lindemann and Lambiel. Both of whom are ranked higher than Johnny in world competition. There is also a big favorite of mine, Klimkin. I see Klimkin and Lambiel as the best in artistry in Men's figure skating. But again, that's me! And you don't have to agree with me. You may like whomever you please. It's what presentation is all about. Even the judges will admit it is the subjective part of figure skating. Cheers - Joe

That's allright Joe. I can understand other people points of view even though I might not share them. I don't hide the fact that I prefer Evgeni's artistry but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate other skaters. I like Evgeni's passion on the ice and the way he gives his all. He's very elegant and I happen to like his flamboyant style. It appeals to me. He has superb basic skating skills and his stroking is to die for IMO. He has great footwork, speed and execute his elements with conviction. The jumps are huge, but this year his landings looked a bit shaky, not sure if that's due to his injury or not. The moment he steps onto the ice you can tell he is in his right element. He completely commands the ice like no other. He could, however, work on his spins some more.

I didn't mean to come down hard on Johnny. I just expressed what I feel watching him. It's just my opinion so it's not written in stone. I can assure you there's nothing personal against Johnny, if that's what you're getting at. I happen to like his smooth and elegant skating.

I like Lambiel. He skates with his heart on his sleeve, just like Evgeni, and that appeals to me. Sometimes I get the feeling that he's rushing his elements, like he wishes it to be over, and therefor tends to be a bit sloppy at times but it may be insecurity. Like Evgeni he gives his all and doesn't hold back. He relates to the audience and doesn't hold back in the smiling department either the way Johnny does. It's obvious he has loads of fun on the ice and it's really showing out there.

He has nice footwork and he tries the harder stuff and don't settle for simplistic steps, but the speed is not quite there yet. His spins are to die for and no other eligible skater is even close. His jumping technique is improving, but I don't think it's top notch yet, and his quad looks shaky. The consistancy will come I'm sure.

Lindemann's skating just doesn't appeal to me. He's a very physical skater, like Yagudin, but unlike Yagudin he doesn't seem to have much choreography. However, he's a very strong skater and are able to pull off some of his less than good landings. His jumps are huge but his landings are often a bit wonky IMO. Not sure what else to say.

I also like Klimkin. He's got a very personal style that I find refreshing. He might not be all that consitent but he always has interesting choreography. He's very original and colourful on the ice.

Vash01...

In reality there is a need for a better understanding of the criteria and how they are being applied. I would not want to see everything computerized (and I am an engineer, so that says something). As humans we should be allowed to think, feel and react differently- and have these long discussions too.

I agree with you.

Presentation is not subjective, like you said and I've just recently understood the old systems criterias. I find it very hard to be objective though. It's impossible

With this new system, will the criteria change? Sorry, I'm an idiot when it comes to the CoP system.

Under the old system presentation meant things like choreography, ice coverage, costume, basic skating skills etc.

If anyone could give me a link to the criterias it would be appreciated. There's so much for me to learn as I'm a fairly new figure skating fan.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Happy to read, Adromica, that you have various opinions on a variety of skaters. I find many posters are only interested in one skater and or interested in only skaters from one country.

One thing you brought up and so have many others in describing a favorite skater, that is the adjective/advertb PASSION. I don't believe that exists in any of the rules in any system. The word for me connotes a personal feeling one gets while sensing an external element such as a fervor or an aversion to a stimulus. In other words, for me, it seems that a skater provokes passion in me. the skater, him/herself does not necessarily have passion in his style. It's just what I perceive.

In the case of Evgeni he certainly stirs up passion (fervor) in you and why not? but he also stirs up passion (aversion) in me. Johnny, does not stir up much passion in me. He's still a young inexperienced kid. He has time. there is talent there.

Joe

 

[andromica]

One thing you brought up and so have many others in describing a favorite skater, that is the adjective/advertb PASSION. I don't believe that exists in any of the rules in any system. The word for me connotes a personal feeling one gets while sensing an external element such as a fervor or an aversion to a stimulus. In other words, for me, it seems that a skater provokes passion in me. the skater, him/herself does not necessarily have passion in his style. It's just what I perceive.

That's an interesting point you brought up Joe. I can understand why you believe that. I do believe, however, that passion do exist but for me it's more of a question to what extent the skater is capable of surface it. Maybe passion provokes passion? In any case, it's an interesting discussion.

I shall ponder it further.

 

[marymotormouth]

Isn't Johnny 18 or 19? I keep seeing him being referred to as "young". Compared to Mike Weiss, sure, but the others are only a couple of years older than him, and I believe Joubert is the same age, yes?

Also, a question regarding the quad. What other skaters were successful on the Senior Level and then mastered the quad? I was under the impression that was something mastered at a much younger age. Two elite skaters immediately come to mind of skaters who attempted to get a quad at an older age and were never able to. Weiss and Eldredge. A consistent, single-footed one, I mean.

I see Johnny being fine by 2006 in all other areas of his skating. But without a quad, he's toast if the others are clean.

 

[euterpe]

Johnny is 19, but he only started skating at 12. Most of the skaters who learned the quad at an earlier age had also started skating at a much younger age.

What Johnny has in his favor are that his other jumps are textbook and very secure. According to his journal, he has been working on two different quads but didn't want to introduce them at Worlds. Considering that he finished 5th without them and men who struggled with quads finished lower than that, it would seem to have been a smart move.

 

[marymotormouth]

Johnny is 19, but he only started skating at 12. Most of the skaters who learned the quad at an earlier age had also started skating at a much younger age.

Thanks for clearing that up. That makes sense. I thought people were referring to his actual age - not years skating.

I really, really, hope that he can master the quad. I haven't been as excited about a US men's skater in a long time. [ Except for Rohene Ward.] I adore Johnny's skating and would love to see him achieve his goal!

I also find his honesty about what he wants honorable. Iit gets so boring to hear, "I just want to skate well." I've always wanted to ask skaters who say that, "Really? Are there skaters that don't want to skate well?"

 

[Kateri]

SO.....are we writing off Matt Savoie completely then?

I can't remember his situation - is he still at college, or has he graduated now? If the latter, the extra training time (assuming he continues skating) could help him get a quad.

I much prefer quadless Matt to quadless Johnny - what am I missing here?

K.

 

[andromica]

I also find his honesty about what he wants honorable. Iit gets so boring to hear, "I just want to skate well." I've always wanted to ask skaters who say that, "Really? Are there skaters that don't want to skate well?"

My experience is (after reading a couple of message boards) that honesty is only appreciated when it comes from a skater you favour, otherwise it's considered arrogant by some people.

I don't have a problem with Johnny's honesty (and he's not even my fav skater) because first, it's possible and secondly, it's the confidence of youth.

It's sports, after all. Anything is possible.

 

[Ptichka]

I really, really, hope that he can master the quad. I haven't been as excited about a US men's skater in a long time. [ Except for Rohene Ward.]

Much as I liked Rohene's skating at Nationals, I am afraid you can't expect much from him. He is, I think around 20, and if he isn't near the top yet, I don't think he ever will be.

 

[shine]

Plushenko relates to the audience for sure, but I wouldn't call him "skating with heart on sleeve". IMO none of his programs have been built that way- there's always too much mimic and too little "depth" or real originality in his skating for my taste.
Lambiel, on the other hand, does skate with his heart on his sleeve. Even though I haven't been overly impressed with the choreography of either of his long programs this year (compared to his programs from 2002 and 2003 that is), yet whenever he skated he never let mistakes distract from his performance level - which is one of the things that I love so much about him - and he always listens to the music and manages to sell the program with his youthful, energetic yet elegant skating. I've never seen one skater skating with more life than him.
I do see why some people would find him a little "sloppy", but I cannot agree. He "moves" more than any of the elite skaters today- and by "move" I mean the way he makes full use of the space around him, vertical, horizontal. He always leans out of his "safe zone" or center, and makes use of every edge on his blade. I find that he moves with incredible ease and flow, and you cannot find more relaxed shoulders and arms, or a straighter back among the male skaters today.

 

[andromica]

Plushenko relates to the audience for sure, but I wouldn't call him "skating with heart on sleeve". IMO none of his programs have been built that way- there's always too much mimic and too little "depth" or real originality in his skating for my taste.

Shine...

I have heard the same things being said (not by you) about Yagudin what you just said about Plushenko and I disagreed then and I disagree now. We have different opinions and that's fine. It's always refreshing with a discussion, as long as it's civil.

Then describe to me what "depth" and originality is to you. Just curious.

 

[marymotormouth]

Much as I liked Rohene's skating at Nationals, I am afraid you can't expect much from him. He is, I think around 20, and if he isn't near the top yet, I don't think he ever will be.

Sigh, you're right Ptichka. It's so frustrating! I really, really, like his style and flair. And it's been a long time since a male US skater made me sit up and go "wow". Johnny and Rohene both did that for me.

I guess I need to get myself to some lower level comps so I'm not at the mercy of ABC to show me who else can make me say "Wow". Even if they'll never get to the top of the podium.

 

[berthes ghost]

My experience is (after reading a couple of message boards) that honesty is only appreciated when it comes from a skater you favour, otherwise it's considered arrogant by some people.

Probably true. However, I think there is a difference between "I think I'm hot stuff and expect to dominate in the future." and "Plushy? Phuuulease, I'm so much better than him, he can't present his way out of a paper bag." Talking yourself up is one thing, talking others down is another IMHO.

 

[andromica]

Probably true. However, I think there is a difference between "I think I'm hot stuff and expect to dominate in the future." and "Plushy? Phuuulease, I'm so much better than him, he can't present his way out of a paper bag." Talking yourself up is one thing, talking others down is another IMHO.

I agree. Perhaps the skaters do a little of both during their career but mostly I think they talk themselves up.

"Plushy? Phuuulease, I'm so much better than him, he can't present his way out of a paper bag."

That was great

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

That's an interesting point you brought up Joe. I can understand why you believe that. I do believe, however, that passion do exist but for me it's more of a question to what extent the skater is capable of surface it. Maybe passion provokes passion? In any case, it's an interesting discussion.

I shall ponder it further.

Now you have me rethinking. It is a interesting concept: PASSION.

It might be good to toss around in a separate thread. I remember it being used in profusion a few years back mostly in dance -The Italian, French and Russian Teams all had Passion. and not everyone agreed.:laugh

BTW, taken as a n adverb of what a skater puts into his routine, I would not say Johnny has PASSION. He does have Determination to skate his best. He's too young. Neither would I say Plushenko has PASSION. He is determined to be loved. He so much wants to please. Also age has a lot to do with passion. It's part of honing one's skills.

Joe:

 

[sk8er1964]

Now you have me rethinking. It is a interesting concept: PASSION.

It might be good to toss around in a separate thread. I remember it being used in profusion a few years back mostly in dance -The Italian, French and Russian Teams all had Passion. and not everyone agreed.:laugh

BTW, taken as a n adverb of what a skater puts into his routine, I would not say Johnny has PASSION. He does have Determination to skate his best. He's too young. Neither would I say Plushenko has PASSION. He is determined to be loved. He so much wants to please. Also age has a lot to do with passion. It's part of honing one's skills.

Joe:

I haven't read every post on this thread, so if I'm repeating someone, please forgive me.

I think that Johnny has a lot of passion. However, that passion is internal passion. Passion to skate well for him, not for me; passion for the music that he loves; passion for the moves themselves. For me, it's a passion that pulled me into him - into his performance. To be honest, that's the same kind of passion I see in Michelle Kwan's skating (she skates for her audience, but she skates for herself first - the absolute love of the ice).

Plushenko's passion is, IMO, a more external passion. A "look at me" kind of passion - one that wants to show what he can do in order to please people. A passion that uses the music and the ice to tell his story to the people.

Both kinds of passions are wonderful - there are too many skaters in this world that skate with no passion at all, afraid to show their true feelings on the ice. I like both skaters---but I hope Johnny lives up to his own predictions at the next Olympics .

 

[andromica]

Now you have me rethinking. It is a interesting concept: PASSION.

It might be good to toss around in a separate thread. I remember it being used in profusion a few years back mostly in dance -The Italian, French and Russian Teams all had Passion. and not everyone agreed.:laugh

BTW, taken as a n adverb of what a skater puts into his routine, I would not say Johnny has PASSION. He does have Determination to skate his best. He's too young. Neither would I say Plushenko has PASSION. He is determined to be loved. He so much wants to please. Also age has a lot to do with passion. It's part of honing one's skills. Joe:

Do they ever agree? You're probably right about this not being the right place for this discussion.

You brought up some good points regarding Johnny and Plushenko. We might not agree on who's got passion and who doesn't.

sk8er1964, has some good points too.

Back to Johnny...I think it's too soon to tell whether or not he's a real candidate for the gold in Torino. We have yet to see more of him IMO. Next season will be a good indicator whether or not he has improved in the right direction. I'd normally say he's more likely for the gold in 2010 Olympics but younger skaters might emerge to the scene. But who knows, right?

 

[icenut84]

Also, a question regarding the quad. What other skaters were successful on the Senior Level and then mastered the quad? I was under the impression that was something mastered at a much younger age. Two elite skaters immediately come to mind of skaters who attempted to get a quad at an older age and were never able to. Weiss and Eldredge. A consistent, single-footed one, I mean.

Stephane Lambiel's another. He competed in 2002 without either a quad or a triple axel, at age 16, and came in 4th at Europeans! He had everything else amazinly though - spins, choreography, footwork, two 3-3s and other great jumps. The next year he was trying quad-triple.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Actually, this GPF series coming up in November(?) is still the 2004 season as is Campblells if that still exists.

So let's lok closely at the GPs and see if the summer taining brought some quads to those without them and passion to those who need it.

Joe