Is Kimmie Meissner underrated?

[bekalc]

I admire her for taking the risks, though. Until a year ago there was just not enough risk-taking among the top ladies. But now she has competition, with Asada and Yuna looking to push the envelope further.

I don't know the points well enough to know whether the jump layout described above would guarantee her more points, but I think if she wants to beat the likes of Asada/Yuna she DEFINITELY needs both 3-3's...and not only that, she needs to hit them both.

At SA she uncharacteristically made jump mistakes. She's usually a fairly solid jumper (save for 3-3 errors). I agree to some degree that Meissner's consistency gets a little blown out of proportion, but the only mistakes I recall her making last year were on the combos. However, at SA she made mistakes on single jumps. Anyway, this is only her first event; I'll cut her a little slack. The Tech was what she had going for her; if she loses that, goodbye US as a ladies' force...for the next couple years, anyway.

But points wise (and this is where I disagree with COP) she doesn't get a whole lot of benefits from hitting those triple/triples. The only benefit is that she gets to repeat an extra double axel......

However, guess what by doing the double axel/triple toe? Yu-na gets the exact same benefit. What I hate about COP is it really doesn't reward people from landing things in difficult combinations. That much.

While of course Kimmie's second combo is worth more, Yu-na gets to repeate probably the same triple elsewhere in her program, with a heck of a lot less risk. And guess what given that Kimmie doesn't get huge GOEs' for her triple/triples, Yu-na will probably get extra GOE's for her both her combo, and her single triple.

I remember reading somewhere, and I could be wrong that Yu-na once did a triple lutz/ triple toe. I'm quite sure if she hasn't that Yu-na's quite capable of doing this. But in this current system there's really no benefit for the added risk of doing the extra triple/triple for Yu-na as long as she can do the double axel/ triple toe. That's why that double axel/triple toe is so popular...

Honestly, the only way Kimmie beats Yu-na is if she lands more triples than Yu-na and Yu-na isn't clean. Given especially the GOE.

But Kimmie can't do this if she doesn't skate clean.. Putting half of your triples in two combinations, isn't a very smart thing to do unless your consistent with those triples.

 

[GoldMedalist]

Hughes is much sloppier, Hughes does not finish her positions as well, Hughes does not interpret the music with as much sophistication or use the phrasing of the music as well, other then the layback Meissner has better spins, Meissner has better jump technique and more secure landings, there are many areas Meissner is superior to Hughes in.

LOL, that part is just....no. Meissner absolutely does not skate to music better. I'd say her level of energy and concentration is more consistent but she's not more exciting or interesting to watch than Emily at her best, which she was at 2007 Nationals.

As far as tech goes Meissner is the better jumper overall but, again, she wasn't at Nationals. You judge a competition based upon what happened at that competition. Emily deserved to win and the fact remains that Kimmie only won because her 3/3 combo was ratified.

 

[Fossi]

Sometiems I think she's underrated and dissed because she is the first World Champion since Kwan and some can't handle that. And on the other hand she did somehting that Cohen could never do- and won that Gold at Worlds, so that made lots of people mad. Kimmie is a great kid and a good skater.

 

[NorthernLite]

I'm an American and I've been a fan of Kimmie's since her kicka** performance at 06 Worlds. But I've wasted so much time arguing with silly people about previous favorites of mine like Sarah Hughes. I just won't bother with that anymore.

I do know that like Sarah, Kimmie's a good person with a great attitude, a fantastic competitor and an always improving skater. I'm pleased that she seems to have found new programs that motivate her. I think she's moving toward a new level of mastery in all aspects of her skating.

 

[R.D.]

I get completely different vibes from the two of them, actually.

 

[krenseby]

I'm an American and I've been a fan of Kimmie's since her kicka** performance at 06 Worlds. But I've wasted so much time arguing with silly people about previous favorites of mine like Sarah Hughes. I just won't bother with that anymore.

I do know that like Sarah, Kimmie's a good person with a great attitude, a fantastic competitor and an always improving skater. I'm pleased that she seems to have found new programs that motivate her. I think she's moving toward a new level of mastery in all aspects of her skating.

Northernline, my feeling is that most skating fans can't appreciate athletic skill. Well, they appreciate, but they are not riveted by it. My contention is that of course Kimmie is no artistic skater, but when her jumps are on, and she's got stamina, it's exhilarating to watch her. But she's only really had that at the 2006 Worlds and maybe at this Skate America competition. She tends to fall apart a bit in terms of her jumps. I loved her LP from last year though; great footwork!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think too many fans are ballet crazy, and unless the female skater shows some ballet-like arms, she is considered fodder for dissing. If one really wants to see ballet-like arms, one should look to Smirnov in Pairs.

Until I see a female skater execute a cabriole as did John Curry did in his Don Q, then we can talk serious ballet.

Kimmie is fine, she is a competitor, and one of the best in the world today. If she can get a silver in her next GP, she'll be in the Finals. What is more important at this time and in this Sport?

Joe

 

[iluvtodd]

Kimmie is fine, she is a competitor, and one of the best in the world today. If she can get a silver in her next GP, she'll be in the Finals. What is more important at this time and in this Sport?

Joe

I'm not in a position to accurately judge anyone's technical ability in this sport, but I'll go with this, any day! :agree:

 

[bekalc]

Northernline, my feeling is that most skating fans can't appreciate athletic skill. Well, they appreciate, but they are not riveted by it. My contention is that of course Kimmie is no artistic skater, but when her jumps are on, and she's got stamina, it's exhilarating to watch her. But she's only really had that at the 2006 Worlds and maybe at this Skate America competition. She tends to fall apart a bit in terms of her jumps. I loved her LP from last year though; great footwork!

See this is why I mention what I do about the 3/3's in her program I suspect that if Meissner did only one combination, we'd be seeing a lot better longs from her.
I don't even think if she lands those two combos that she would beat a clean Mao or a clean Yu-na. So honestly, I don't think the risk is worth it for her.

I think too many fans are ballet crazy, and unless the female skater shows some ballet-like arms, she is considered fodder for dissing. If one really wants to see ballet-like arms, one should look to Smirnov in Pairs.

Until I see a female skater execute a cabriole as did John Curry did in his Don Q, then we can talk serious ballet.

Kimmie is fine, she is a competitor, and one of the best in the world today. If she can get a silver in her next GP, she'll be in the Finals. What is more important at this time and in this Sport?

I think that some of the dissing of Meissner is unfair...I think the problem is that the special qualities of Meissner's skating. Her excellent basic skills, her good jumping technique. Well, these things just aren't as flashy as let's say the things Alissa, Caroline, and Sasha were doing...

I remember at 2006 Nationals, Dick and Peggy really praised Meissner's technical skills and talked about Meissner's technique is really going to help in her competition. And I think that's just thing. Meissner may not be as flashy as some of the other girls. But her solid skating skills have held her up in good stead over people like Alissa, Sasha (beating her at worlds) etc. I wouldn't be surprised if they hold Kimmie up above Caroline too. (More than people will think) Because as Dick and Peggy said, if your technique isn't solid, when well the pressure is on, your jumps might not hold up. ( I haven't seen enough of Zhang to know if this the case yet).
Honestly, skaters with solid technical skills and excellent artistry. Well these skaters just don't come around very often. Because that's a really hard mix to fine. Michelle, Yu-na's, Mao's, and Shizuka's well they just aren't a dime a dozen, because I think some areas of artistry really cannot be taught.

I think Meissner does her absolute best, and who knows maybe artistically she'll improve.

 

[R.D.]

I think too many fans are ballet crazy, and unless the female skater shows some ballet-like arms, she is considered fodder for dissing. If one really wants to see ballet-like arms, one should look to Smirnov in Pairs.

Until I see a female skater execute a cabriole as did John Curry did in his Don Q, then we can talk serious ballet.

Kimmie is fine, she is a competitor, and one of the best in the world today. If she can get a silver in her next GP, she'll be in the Finals. What is more important at this time and in this Sport?

Well said, actually. Now we go and make a thread titled "Emily Hughes is underrated, I feel" and watch the forks and plates come flying.

(she's definitely not underrated btw...if anything, she might be slightly overrated given her international results. Still, I think the dissing of her is very unfair as well, but no-one wants to talk about that.)

I think that some of the dissing of Meissner is unfair...I think the problem is that the special qualities of Meissner's skating. Her excellent basic skills, her good jumping technique. Well, these things just aren't as flashy as let's say the things Alissa, Caroline, and Sasha were doing...

That's probably the word I was secretly looking for the whole time...flashy. She's definitely not an "in-your-face" skater like we're used to seeing a lot. She's just a plain old good skater who goes out there and gets the job done, reliably. And her bubbly persona makes it hard to dislike her personally. Even with all the stuff I said before about her being unconvincing on the ice, she does have a lot going for her and I give her credit for trying and wish her luck at the worlds and in future seasons. After all, now she is the only American that is capable of challenging the Asian Armada. Maybe Caroline will join in within a couple years...(oops, better ease up on the hype)

You know a good analogy to make here...NBA basketball. The San Antonio Spurs get heavily criticized for being boring and lack of team personality. However, they play solid team ball...they're willing to share the burden among the players, hence why they've won 4 championships. On the other hand, you have a team like the Phoenix Suns which have much "flashier" and TV-friendly play. I think Kimmie's skating represents the Spurs in this case.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

"Emily Hughes is underrated, I feel" and watch the forks and plates come flying.

(she's definitely not underrated btw...if anything, she might be slightly overrated given her international results. Still, I think the dissing of her is very unfair as well, but no-one wants to talk about that.)

I think if you took a tally of skaters who have been dissed, Kwan got more of it than others especially with the assumption 'she will be under pressure' and no one else will be. Was it fair?

I think everyone including me likes Emily. She has such a winning smile throughout her programs except when she's ready to do a toe-off jump. It's not a diss,it's a fact. Further, I think Emily will always be known as a happy skater.

BOT: Too early to be dissing. Kimmie is fine.

Joe

 

[GoldMedalist]

I don't get the comparisons to other realms of Sport with Kimmie. Let's keep the discussion solely at her own abilities.

When I watch Kimmie I see a hard worker and a nice person. I don't see raw talent, though. She doesn't interpret music - that creative spark is lacking. Top choreographers give her good programs and she tries her best to pull it off because she likes skating and likes the challenge, not because she has the innate desire to be expressive. The other parts of overall presentation, good body positions and stroking, are not something she is special at either.

As for the tech, her spins are pretty good but not particularly beautiful or difficult. Her Spirals are absolutely average. Her footwork sequences are pretty good but not great in any area of speed, flow, or rhythm. The jumps are relatively consistent but the quality is lacking. From what I've seen, Kimmie has never done a real 3/3 combo in her life...and those jumps are supposed to be her selling point.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I still haven't seen that which you describe since Kwan stopped skating after 2003 Worlds. I know she continued for 2 more years but the hip was giving in.

Mao has a feel for music, Yu Na who I thought was better, does not. Miki like Kimmie is totally choreographed and not much coming from them but I would say Kimmie will become an individual which I do not see in Miki.

None of the four really get to me musically but I would choose Mao in a poll.

Joe

 

[bekalc]

I still haven't seen that which you describe since Kwan stopped skating after 2003 Worlds. I know she continued for 2 more years but the hip was giving in.

Mao has a feel for music, Yu Na who I thought was better, does not. Miki like Kimmie is totally choreographed and not much coming from them but I would say Kimmie will become an individual which I do not see in Miki.

None of the four really get to me musically but I would choose Mao in a poll.

Joe

Aw, I think Yu-na does feel her music.. Maybe she wasn't really waltzy but I felt she felt the music for her short. I looked at Kristi Yamaguchi's Blue Danube, she was hardly skating hers as a waltz either. It's a skating program.

As for the long, I think she does perhaps not connect well with that music.. Sometimes no matter how good you are, you can just not connect well with a piece of music (although I thought she connected well with Sun and Moon.) Give it time. Besides I think some of the issues with the long is the choregraphy...

For example Mao connected really well with Nocturne, but not so well with her long for most of last year...

 

[Wrlmy]

As for the long, I think she does perhaps not connect well with that music.. Sometimes no matter how good you are, you can just not connect well with a piece of music (although I thought she connected well with Sun and Moon.) Give it time. Besides I think some of the issues with the long is the choregraphy...

According to the person from another board who translated Russian commentary, Tarasova disagrees with you

 

[bekalc]

According to the person from another board who translated Russian commentary, Tarasova disagrees with you

Yeah, I noticed and I'm beginning to change my mind about the program too after more viewings. The same thing happened with Mao's at first I didn't like, and then I did... I think it was just this program is so different from Lark's.

Honestly, I think that sometimes artistry can be really subjective. Sometimes well you get it and sometimes you don't. Oh well. But Yu-na herself said that she's not fully satisfied with her perfromance and feels she needs to work on it. So she thinks she can do it better.

 

[Wrlmy]

Yeah, I noticed and I'm beginning to change my mind about the program too after more viewings. The same thing happened with Mao's at first I didn't like, and then I did... I think it was just this program is so different from Lark's.

Honestly, I think that sometimes artistry can be really subjective. Sometimes well you get it and sometimes you don't. Oh well. But Yu-na herself said that she's not fully satisfied with her perfromance and feels she needs to work on it. So she thinks she can do it better.

That's good to hear. There are difinitely some parts she can interpret better. The only reason I mentioned Tarasova is not because I wanted to say you are wrong, but because I believe if there is one person who has enough authority and also objective perspective, it would be her.

 

[bekalc]

That's good to hear. There are difinitely some parts she can interpret better. The only reason I mentioned Tarasova is not because I wanted to say you are wrong, but because I believe if there is one person who has enough authority and also objective perspective, it would be her.

I know, I loved Tarasova's commentary, what I loved was the fact that she tried to say nice things about every skater.... It was clear that Tarasova appreciates talent wherever it comes from. One thing I loved was the commentary about how in the heck did Korea produce Yu-na? It's probably what a lot of people are asking LOL!

 

[Wrlmy]

I know, I loved Tarasova's commentary, what I loved was the fact that she tried to say nice things about every skater.... It was clear that Tarasova appreciates talent wherever it comes from. One thing I loved was the commentary about how in the heck did Korea produce Yu-na? It's probably what a lot of people are asking LOL!

Tarasova can be as critical as Dick, but she is far less biased. That's for sure

 

[museksk8r]

I certainly don't underestimate Kimmie. She is as valuable to the USA as Joannie Rochette is to Canada. There's no way the US would have had 3 spots for Worlds this season without Meissner and her gutsy competitive spirit. Hughes and Czisny don't have anywhere near Meissner's difficulty or consistency. Since Zhang and Nagasu are not age-eligible for senior Worlds, once again the USA's chances rest on dependable Kimmie's shoulders.