Janet Lynn: A Measured Fall from Freedom

[FelineFairy]

Let me jump in, because I think I understand the point that @noskates was trying to make, and if not, they can correct me.

The point was also made that there is a difference between the bodies of a 13 year old and a 14 year old and a 16 year old and a 17 year old. I think we would agree. And that the goal is for skaters to have long and healthy careers. I don't know how much folks agree on that.

I would argue that raising the age for seniors would assist in that laudable goal. Following the men, I see how they don't rush quads, how they take their time (for the most part) and how it helps them, IMO, have long and healthy careers.

If a skater is a wonderful skater at 15, she should be a wonderful skater at 16 (and 17 and 18). The other arguments: dreams of Olympic gold, cost of training, etc, also mean less to me compared to health). What is there to be afraid of in raising the age?

Is it a perfect metric? No. Will young skaters still train some quad jumps? Sure (although I have never ever understood the "but they're going to train the jumps anywaaaaay" argument for supporting *not* raising the age, so I guess I'm missing something). But from my point of view, it is better to err on the side of caution.

Thank you very much for your reply. I understand your points, however, your post slightly changes the topic of the discussion. I specifically stated that I was not trying to discuss all the pros and contras of raising the age limit. I am speaking only of the damage to the bodies. If you want to raise the age limit AND ban quads for juniors, it is at least logical. Quads harm young bodies - prohibit quads for juniors - allow them for seniors only - raise age limit so that the bodies of those who jump quads are not too young. This can be understood. But sorry, what you are saying is: quads harm young bodies - let them jump quads nevertheless - but don't let them enter competitions for seniors, because .... what? I won't try to guess the reason.
Moreover, your question "What is there to be afraid of in raising the age?" is subtly turning the discussion upside down. The existing age limit is the one to ask a question about. What is there to be afraid of in the existing age limit? As @eppen showed there are practically no correlations between most of the rules, limits, systems and longevity.
This all might seem just literalism. Anyway, I am not trying to argue about age limit. I am trying to say that the arguments and proof one is using to support their viewpoint are not always 100% suitable.

 

[flanker]

Thank you very much for your reply. I understand your points, however, your post slightly changes the topic of the discussion. I specifically stated that I was not trying to discuss all the pros and contras of raising the age limit. I am speaking only of the damage to the bodies. If you want to raise the age limit AND ban quads for juniors, it is at least logical. Quads harm young bodies - prohibit quads for juniors - allow them for seniors only - raise age limit so that the bodies of those who jump quads are not too young. This can be understood. But sorry, what you are saying is: quads harm young bodies - let them jump quads nevertheless - but don't let them enter competitions for seniors, because .... what? I won't try to guess the reason.
Moreover, your question "What is there to be afraid of in raising the age?" is subtly turning the discussion upside down. The existing age limit is the one to ask a question about. What is there to be afraid of in the existing age limit? As @eppen showed there are practically no correlations between most of the rules, limits, systems and longevity.
This all might seem just literalism. Anyway, I am not trying to argue about age limit. I am trying to say that the arguments and proof one is using to support their viewpoint are not always 100% suitable.

You get it correctly. It's nothing new here, the requirement to raise the age eligibility while not calling for banning the quads, without bringing any reasoning how this would really contribute to the health of skaters apart from "because I say so".

There are two options:

1. Either training quads bring the risk beyong acceptable risk (again, there is always risk as I've said above: There are plenty of ladies (and men of course) who got injured or even had to stop their career while never training quads. Even ice dancers.) and then quads should be banned, at least on junior level. That would require appropriate amount of data, which, I say, is not present at this moment, and also would require to explain why women (and athletes generally) even in junior age are allowed to go in for box, judo, taekwondo and other disciplines (for what they prepare since childhood) but not jumping quads.

2. Or quads are representing acceptable risk, just like many other elements, sports and disciplines, of course under condition of "careful/caring and professional coaching attitude" as I also said above.

So, the solution in case 1 (which should be proven first) could be:
1. ban quads for anyone, if it can be proven they are dangerous for anyone beyond acceptable risk.
2. ban quads for juniors (or under particular age) if it can be proven they are dangerous till that particular age.

Simple raising the age eligibility without any other measure doesn't make any sense and was never anyhow supported by a proper argument yet if the goal is the care about health of the skaters. As was pointed out several times, the age structure of skaters is more or less the same for most of time of the modern figure skating, no matter the current eligibility, technical level of particular era or any other difference.

If the case 2 is true, there is no reason to change anything and such change will just complicate the career of the skater and does not help to preserve skaters health. That's why any change shouldn't be done based just on subjective feelings, sympathies, intuition or any other irrelevant basis.

I would also like to say that no one should appropriate the care for the health of the skaters for himself or for his "opinion circle".

 

[el henry]

Thank you very much for your reply. I understand your points, however, your post slightly changes the topic of the discussion. I specifically stated that I was not trying to discuss all the pros and contras of raising the age limit. I am speaking only of the damage to the bodies. If you want to raise the age limit AND ban quads for juniors, it is at least logical. Quads harm young bodies - prohibit quads for juniors - allow them for seniors only - raise age limit so that the bodies of those who jump quads are not too young. This can be understood. But sorry, what you are saying is: quads harm young bodies - let them jump quads nevertheless - but don't let them enter competitions for seniors, because .... what? I won't try to guess the reason.
Moreover, your question "What is there to be afraid of in raising the age?" is subtly turning the discussion upside down. The existing age limit is the one to ask a question about. What is there to be afraid of in the existing age limit? As @eppen showed there are practically no correlations between most of the rules, limits, systems and longevity.
This all might seem just literalism. Anyway, I am not trying to argue about age limit. I am trying to say that the arguments and proof one is using to support their viewpoint are not always 100% suitable.

Thank you for your answer, and I am not trying to argue either. I realize everything is imperfect, and arguments pro and con are never "spot on".

And you are right, I deliberately turned the argument about raising the age limit to make the rhetorical point: how you argue the question will definitely depend on your opinion.

And jumping off, not directed at you, whether my opinion is right or wrong, I will never defer to "coaches always know best" (or parents always know best or they wouldn't trust a coach). We have seen in the US that coaches in many sports can be blinded by shiny gold, or perhaps talk themselves into methods that are not the best in pursuit of shiny gold, and parents go along with it. For me, that can never be allowed to shut down a discussion.

 

[noskates]

First of all - I didn't think I was writing my post in a foreign language so I'm not sure why it was hard to understand. El Henry clarified it so maybe my wording was challenging. Thank you El. I realize some have a vested interest in the teeny tiny little jumping beans garnering medals. That's fine. My concern is what kind of an impact that will have on their health later on in life. If there is no impact and they have that gold medal on their wall - great!!! We've all just seen too many skaters bottom out in their mid-teens because of injury.

 

[Sharon Whitlock]

If you can't get injured doing a sport it's not a real sport. The whole point of elite sport is toi push your body beyond the limits of human endurance.

I can go along with this at the high levels of the sport, but it's awfully tough for a purely-amateur (part time, many other interests) Intermediate or Novice skater to experience an injury that often ends their skating entirely, or at best, greatly hobbles their skating, as well as causes pain in their daily activities and leads to lifetime limitations, often requiring medical treatment and even surgery later in life.

It's my opinion that many of these injuries occur because of inadequate training, and the push for young/teen skaters to land the big jumps before they are physically strong/mature enough to land them, and before they have a true appreciation and mastery of their edges to be able to land the jumps correctly and safely.

In case anyone is wondering, my late husband was a very low-level but very enthusiastic ice dancer, and my two adult daughters, who started skating when they were 3 and 5, and skated at the World level (Junior, not Senior) in synchronized during the early 2000s, are now in their late 30s and still skating (competitive synchro) and coaching. One of my daughters is also a physical therapist. So you're right, I'm not a doctor, but...at least I've been hanging around the sport for many decades and have seen a lot.

 

[gkelly]

Let me jump in, because I think I understand the point that @noskates was trying to make, and if not, they can correct me.

The point was also made that there is a difference between the bodies of a 13 year old and a 14 year old and a 16 year old and a 17 year old. I think we would agree. And that the goal is for skaters to have long and healthy careers. I don't know how much folks agree on that.

I would argue that raising the age for seniors would assist in that laudable goal. Following the men, I see how they don't rush quads, how they take their time (for the most part) and how it helps them, IMO, have long and healthy careers.

Talented/ambitious boys also often start training triple axels and quads in early teens once they have mastered the basic triples. If anything, the pressure from their own expectations and from some coaches to push for those jumps is stronger for boys than for girls.

Some of them get injured and end their careers as juniors, so only diehard fans ever hear of them.

Some stay healthy but never actually master the difficult skills, so we don't hear as much about them.

Some get injured as juniors, recover, and go on to successful senior careers.

Some don't start training harder jumps until later teens because their technique and/or their bodies aren't ready for those demands until 17-18 or more, which is more often true for males than for females because the typical ways in which male and female bodies develop and with what timing.


The same will be true for girls as triple axels and quads become more common elements on the women's side.


If the senior age minimum is raised, it should of course be raised equitably for both men and women. But it will be less of a hardship for the men, who are more likely to reach peak jumping ability after 17 or so.

Whereas for women, if they need to stay in juniors until late teens, as long as quads are legal in junior freeskates (and triple axels permitted in the SP jump combination), the jumping competition to land those jumps will probably be fiercer among the juniors than the seniors.

And so there will probably be more women who get injured and end their careers as juniors, so only diehard fans ever hear of them.

If a skater is a wonderful skater at 15, she should be a wonderful skater at 16 (and 17 and 18). The other arguments: dreams of Olympic gold, cost of training, etc, also mean less to me compared to health). What is there to be afraid of in raising the age?

Women as well as men do tend to improve their overall skating in their later teens and 20s. But unlike men, jumping (or specifically rotating in the air) often becomes harder with adult bodies.

Therefore, it's likely that the wonderful skaters who had quads at 15 or 16 and remain healthy will be even more wonderful skaters at 17 and 18, but it's less likely that they will still be as good at landing quads.

If the minimum age limit were raised to, say, 17 as of July 1, it's likely that on the women's side the number of difficult jumps attempted and completed in junior competition would be higher than the number in senior competition.

I don't think that's something to be afraid of. But it does mean that for fans who are mostly interested in jump rotations, junior competition would likely become more exciting than seniors among the women.

Is it a perfect metric? No. Will young skaters still train some quad jumps? Sure (although I have never ever understood the "but they're going to train the jumps anywaaaaay" argument for supporting *not* raising the age, so I guess I'm missing something). But from my point of view, it is better to err on the side of caution.

It's entirely possible that many mid-teen girls at their jumping peak while still below senior age would have to fight harder against each other to get to Junior Worlds and to win medals there than they would to reach senior Worlds and Olympics -- which might mean attempting even more quads than they would in an older field with a lower percentage of quadsters.

 

[Lzbee]

Talented/ambitious boys also often start training triple axels and quads in early teens once they have mastered the basic triples. If anything, the pressure from their own expectations and from some coaches to push for those jumps stronger for boys than for girls.

Some of them get injured and end their careers as juniors, so only diehard fans ever hear of them.

Some stay healthy but never actually master the difficult skills, so we don't hear as much about them.

Some get injured as juniors, recover, and go on to successful senior careers.

Some don't start training harder jumps until later teens because their technique and/or their bodies aren't ready for those demands until 17-18 or more, which is more often true for males than for females because the typical ways in which male and female bodies develop and with what timing.


The same will be true for girls as triple axels and quads become more common elements on the women's side.


If the senior age minimum is raised, it should of course be raised equitably for both men and women. But it will be less of a hardship for the men, who are more likely to reach peak jumping ability after 17 or so.

Whereas for women, if they need to stay in juniors until late teens, as long as quads are legal in junior freeskates (and triple axels permitted in the SP jump combination), the jumping competition to land those jumps will probably be fiercer among the juniors than the seniors.

And so there will probably be more women who get injured and end their careers as juniors, so only diehard fans ever hear of them.



Women as well as men do tend to improve their overall skating in their later teens and 20s. But unlike men, jumping (or specifically rotating in the air) often becomes harder with adult bodies.

Therefore, it's likely that the wonderful skaters who had quads at 15 or 16 and remain healthy will be even more wonderful skaters at 17 and 18, but it's less likely that they will still be as good at landing quads.

If the minimum age limit were raised to, say, 17 as of July 1, it's likely that on the women's side the number of difficult jumps attempted and completed in junior competition would be higher than the number in senior competition.

I don't think that's something to be afraid of. But it does mean that for fans who are mostly interested in jump rotations, junior competition would likely become more exciting than seniors among the women.



It's entirely possible that many mid-teen girls at their jumping peak while still below senior age would have to fight harder against each other to get to Junior Worlds and to win medals there than they would to reach senior Worlds and Olympics -- which might mean attempting even more quads than they would in an older field with a lower percentage of quadsters.

you just said everything I was thinking but far more eloquently.

So how would we encourage skaters to battle through those difficult couple of years to make it through to seniors (if the min age was increased)? I personally think: 1. Having more opportunities/ways to win medals 2. More research into sustainable technique 3. Rewarding sustainable technique

 

[gkelly]

I would also add, as I have periodically in other posts, to introduce more ways of earning points for jump difficulty other than just adding rotations in the air.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Therefore, it's likely that the wonderful skaters who had quads at 15 or 16 and remain healthy will be even more wonderful skaters at 17 and 18, but it's less likely that they will still be as good at landing quads.

This single sentence just about encapsulates the debate on age limit for me

I'm undecided on the age limit issue, but if I were to pose an argument against raising it, it wouldn't be for health reasons. Actually I suspect quads might be less dangerous for younger girls, more so for those who try to learn them in adulthood - or adults who learnt bad technique when young (since there is much less room for suboptimal technique with a taller/curvier frame).

Rather one could argue along the lines of competitive fairness - being younger gives a physical advantage, so when a 15-year-old competes with an 18-year-old in seniors it's not really a level playing field. Kind of like having men compete against women in athletics.

However, the physical advantage is mostly in the area of jumps (not spins/steps etc.), so again it boils down to a debate about whether jumps have a disproportionate influence on the total score. This debate applies to men too - the only difference is that men's age and their jumping ability are not as highly correlated compared to women's.

 

[noskates]

Agree if the age limit is raised it should be across the board. And I also agree that points should NOT be given simply for rotation and not the landing of the jump. As long as that remains in the judging system everybody and anybody will attempt quads whether they're able to do them or not. And there is where the injuries will occur.

 

[wakuwaku]

Following the men, I see how they don't rush quads, how they take their time (for the most part) and how it helps them, IMO, have long and healthy careers.

How many injuries Nathan, Vincent, Plushenko or Yuzuru had?

And that the goal is for skaters to have long and healthy careers.

No? The goal of skaters is to have successful career. The goal to have long career is for their fans.

Also, I wanted to answer more explicitly clarifying my points since they weren't (or not wanted to) understood properly - but people here are explained them already more or less. Indeed, that logic contradiction in raising age supporters reasoning they say about above is a sure sign that health concern is just a cover. And real goal of raising the age is something else.
Another reason I think so is quite simple. I believe Alina Zagitova is much healthier now and will be in future than Karolina Kostner. For example. Exactly because Alina was allowed to end her competitive senior career shortly due to starting her early - leading to ending harmful for her body training sooner. Which in turn prevented unavoidable accumulation of injuries going for many years in so desired by 'health concerners' long careers. Therefore if they really wanted health above all as a priority - they would advocate for lowering the limit - not raising it.

Sure (although I have never ever understood the "but they're going to train the jumps anywaaaaay" argument for supporting *not* raising the age, so I guess I'm missing something).

It's simple. There are novices learning quads and triple axels already. For example the latest https://www.instagram.com/p/CR3PadpKcN7/ 12.y.o. Sofia Titova 3A. And they are doing it obviously not for the sake of senior career which is many years ahead. They are doing it to win their own closest competitions because they couldn't win them easily with triples only already.
Which reminds me.. why they always are talking about presumable harm of quads - but not triple axels? There aren't that many junior girls jumping 3As either - despite that jump is little bit more common for women. In other words - it's potential harm for youth is as unexplored as quads harm. Yet noone mentioned it. Why? The reason for that is deeper than mere forgetfulness, I believe..

 

[el henry]

How many injuries Nathan, Vincent, Plushenko or Yuzuru had?

No? The goal of skaters is to have successful career. The goal to have long career is for their fans.

Also, I wanted to answer more explicitly clarifying my points since they weren't (or not wanted to) understood properly - but people here are explained them already more or less. Indeed, that logic contradiction in raising age supporters reasoning they say about above is a sure sign that health concern is just a cover. And real goal of raising the age is something else.
Another reason I think so is quite simple. I believe Alina Zagitova is much healthier now and will be in future than Karolina Kostner. For example. Exactly because Alina was allowed to end her competitive senior career shortly due to starting her early - leading to ending harmful for her body training sooner. Which in turn prevented unavoidable accumulation of injuries going for many years in so desired by 'health concerners' long careers. Therefore if they really wanted health above all as a priority - they would advocate for lowering the limit - not raising it.

It's simple. There are novices learning quads and triple axels already. For example the latest https://www.instagram.com/p/CR3PadpKcN7/ 12.y.o. Sofia Titova 3A. And they are doing it obviously not for the sake of senior career which is many years ahead. They are doing it to win their own closest competitions because they couldn't win them easily with triples only already.
Which reminds me.. why they always are talking about presumable harm of quads - but not triple axels? There aren't that many junior girls jumping 3As either - despite that jump is little bit more common for women. In other words - it's potential harm for youth is as unexplored as quads harm. Yet noone mentioned it. Why? The reason for that is deeper than mere forgetfulness, I believe..

what do you mean by the reason for not mentioning 3As is not mere forgetfulness?
and that raising health is just a cover?
and a sure sign of something else?

since I am the one that you are quoting, and my history of posting on this subject is quite even handed (it might be incorrect, but it is very even handed, in fact, if anything I talk about the men more because I know them more. ETA: And as I have said on numerous occasions, I don’t follow the women, I couldn’t pick 90% of the junior women out of a line up and have no investment in their outcomes)

so if you could please, using my posts, show me where my opinions are a cover, or a sure sign, or my real goal is something else, I would appreciate it. Thanks!

 

[wakuwaku]

what do you mean by the reason for not mentioning 3As is not mere forgetfulness?

I mean that 3A is not proposed to be source of harm because there are lot of skaters from various countries jumping it in women skating whereas quads are mostly from one country. That's my theory only though - about it being political.
Logical contradiction of 'concerned about health' trying to propose raising the age as preventive method of injuries instead of much more direct and obvious banning of quads in juniors is leading to doubts about their sincerity. Resulting in suspicion that the declared reason (health) have nothing to do with their real reason to propose raising the age.

since I am the one that you are quoting, and my history of posting on this subject is quite even handed

I answered on what I quoted of you in the post above by couple of short lines. Everything else is made as general answer to this topic and directed not only to you or what you said. You are not the only one who presenting here 'age raising' position.

in fact, if anything I talk about the men more because I know them more. ETA: And as I have said on numerous occasions, I don’t follow the women

Which makes me wonder, to be honest, why are you so invested in disputes concerning women or 'raising the age' issue - which concerns again mostly women? If you didn't follow them or not interested in them? Why do you care about what you are not interested in (and therefore not having deep knowledge about)?

 

[Sharon Whitlock]

Is this 140 pound number based on the general US population average for girls in that age bracket, or anecdotally based on skaters that you know? It certainly doesn't seem to be the case for either low-level skaters at my local Canadian club or at US/CAN nationals.

Furthermore absolute weight also doesn't mean much without accounting for height/muscle mass etc. According to Google Kostner is/was 60 kg (height 1.69 m). Healthy BMI, nobody in their sane mind would consider her 'big', plus it certainly didn't impede her from jumping 3-3s.

Coaches who cannot to work with young women at or not far off Kostner's weight/build without injuring them (or giving them an eating disorder) are just incompetent coaches.

Actually, the average weight for a woman in the U.S. is 165 pounds. That group would include females over the age of 18.

I know plenty of teen skaters, and perhaps it's just our part of the country, or the fact that most of them are synchro skaters. Whatever--but they are definitely not lightweights.

I get the impression that Canadian young people are in much better shape and weigh less than American teens. We're pretty chunky here in the land of soft drinks, candy bars, sweet coffee drinks, Dunkin' Donuts, McDonalds, etc. etc. etc.

 

[eppen]

Read this article by Rebecca Liu in The Guardian the other day. She did rhytmic gymnastics at National level in her country until her teens and writes about her experiences. No abuse or anything horrible, luckily, not even excessive training as she comes from New Zealand which is not too competetive and far from the top of the sport.The career projection in that sport is surprisingly similar to figure skating - puberty is the feared beast and most retire by their early 20s. I was struck by the 9-year-old figuring out that she is getting old and her body will not be developing/working in the same way as a 10-year old. And also by the way she describes the excitement and power she got from performing in competitions. And her later ideological problems of having been a child star in perhaps the ultimate "girly" sport when she gets to read feminist theory in college. Though not skating, her story gives an interesting insight into what goes on in the mind of a young athlete and how dedicated and obsessive and informed they can be.

I also started to wonder about the teenage boys doing quads and how things have developed for them. Difficult stuff to quantify without ploughing through huge amount of score sheets, so I tried to find an easier solution. My fave resource for elements does not list juniors, so I turned to Rink Results with which you can generate lists of best elements by gender, competition type etc. per season. Just went through free programs (no quads in the SP for juniors) from 2004 to 2020 and until around 2014/2015 the best 50 list was populated with 3As and 3Lzs with the occasional 4T or 4S. After that the quads start slowly to take over with more skaters doing them. In the last years, quads were a majority among the top 50, but 3A is still relatively strong. Ofc, more are probably working and jumping them than just those who get the best jumps to that top 50 list.

But what was interesting to note that quads have gotten common in competitions for junior men only recently. I maybe expected a bit earlier development. To a certain extent it has gone hand in hand with what has happened in senior men - like the big quad season 2016-7 among men is also a big quad season in juniors. Quads appeared already in the 1980s, but they have become common relatively slowly. In the ISU world ranking list for senior men, there are ca. 130 or so skaters annually and these days slightly less than half of them jump quads regularly or attempt them in competition.

E

 

[Dr. Jenn]

Read this article by Rebecca Liu in The Guardian the other day. She did rhytmic gymnastics at National level in her country until her teens and writes about her experiences. No abuse or anything horrible, luckily, not even excessive training as she comes from New Zealand which is not too competetive and far from the top of the sport.The career projection in that sport is surprisingly similar to figure skating - puberty is the feared beast and most retire by their early 20s. I was struck by the 9-year-old figuring out that she is getting old and her body will not be developing/working in the same way as a 10-year old. And also by the way she describes the excitement and power she got from performing in competitions. And her later ideological problems of having been a child star in perhaps the ultimate "girly" sport when she gets to read feminist theory in college. Though not skating, her story gives an interesting insight into what goes on in the mind of a young athlete and how dedicated and obsessive and informed they can be.

I also started to wonder about the teenage boys doing quads and how things have developed for them. Difficult stuff to quantify without ploughing through huge amount of score sheets, so I tried to find an easier solution. My fave resource for elements does not list juniors, so I turned to Rink Results with which you can generate lists of best elements by gender, competition type etc. per season. Just went through free programs (no quads in the SP for juniors) from 2004 to 2020 and until around 2014/2015 the best 50 list was populated with 3As and 3Lzs with the occasional 4T or 4S. After that the quads start slowly to take over with more skaters doing them. In the last years, quads were a majority among the top 50, but 3A is still relatively strong. Ofc, more are probably working and jumping them than just those who get the best jumps to that top 50 list.

But what was interesting to note that quads have gotten common in competitions for junior men only recently. I maybe expected a bit earlier development. To a certain extent it has gone hand in hand with what has happened in senior men - like the big quad season 2016-7 among men is also a big quad season in juniors. Quads appeared already in the 1980s, but they have become common relatively slowly. In the ISU world ranking list for senior men, there are ca. 130 or so skaters annually and these days slightly less than half of them jump quads regularly or attempt them in competition.

E

That was a really interesting article. Thanks for sharing!

 

[streams4dreams]

I mean that 3A is not proposed to be source of harm because there are lot of skaters from various countries jumping it in women skating whereas quads are mostly from one country.

This is an interesting point, and it may mean that the pushback against quads in women's skating has more to do with unfamiliarity rather than politics. Women have been landing 3A for some time (and across the globe), and the health risks don't appear to be significantly more serious than with other jumps. I can imagine that if/when a similar track record exists for quads, at least some of the concerns raised here would be alleviated.

 

[eppen]

Stumbled upon this archived article from 1998 on the age eligibility discussion back then and very many of the same arguments were used back then. At the time no one was probably even dreaming of quads for women.

E

 

[anonymoose_au]

Stumbled upon this archived article from 1998 on the age eligibility discussion back then and very many of the same arguments were used back then. At the time no one was probably even dreaming of quads for women.

E

It's amusing to read that article and see Plushy mentioned, when about 18 years later there was a segment of figure skating who were like "OMG, is this guy STILL here?"

Michelle Kwan also had a rather long career and went to two Olympics (and almost went to Turin, I thought?) so it's probably depends more on the individual skater rather than any age limits or what not.

 

[AxelLover]

Controversial opinion here: quads should be allowed for all skaters – both men and women, both juniors and seniors, both in the short program and the free program. Plus in the ladies category the PCS factor should be raised from 0.8 to 1.0 in the short program and from 1.6 to 2.0 in the free.