Article by Janet Lynn

[evangeline]

What kind of annoys me about the new system is how sometimes, a lead in the SP or SD is insurmountable. That was the main complaint people had with figures, up until the short program was instituted. The leads people had in figures were almost insurmountable. It diminishes the excitement.

Of course, my annoyance with 6.0 was that it didn't matter if the lead was a whisker or a mile--a lead was a lead.

Diminishes the excitement? Under CoP, scenarios like Lambiel's infamous 2006 Skate Canada win (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja2sd5iecgI) are actually possible. Now, THAT was a crazy and exciting comeback win. Under 6.0, a 7th-place SP skater would never have been able to win (at least, I don't think it's ever happened before).

 

[skatinginbc]

Casual viewers are fickle in their tastes.

Some tastes are fickle while others are quite stable. One of the stable attributes that casual viewers assess a skater's performance is how "clean" it is skated. Even I, who don't know how to skate, can catch such "hiccups" as "hand-down", "two-foot" with a momentary jerk or pause, out-of-position landing (e.g., leaning forward or backward), one foot tripping the other so that there is an abrupt jerking moment, and of course the obvious falls.

I think it comes down to commentary. If the commentators respect the viewers as sports fans they'll gear the commentary toward appreciate the performances as technical as well as athletic and artistic feats, and viewers will learn to appreciate some of the finer details.

Good commentary helps me acquire appreciation for the finer details. It fails however to convince me that those visible "hiccups" should influence the score so little as they do now.

There is room for debate on what qualities the rules should value more highly and for how the rules could or should be rewritten to value those qualities better.

You are absolutely right, and so here comes the room for debate: Should those visible "hiccups" receive more penalty? But the answer I received was something like this:

A fall in the step sequence of course has more impact, but it's duely deducted as in the TEB performance.

No need for debate, in other words. It is good as it is. It has been duly deducted.

 

[Tonichelle]

What kind of annoys me about the new system is how sometimes, a lead in the SP or SD is insurmountable. That was the main complaint people had with figures, up until the short program was instituted. The leads people had in figures were almost insurmountable. It diminishes the excitement.

Of course, my annoyance with 6.0 was that it didn't matter if the lead was a whisker or a mile--a lead was a lead.

I agree... the SP leads are annoying.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I agree... the SP leads are annoying.

Great SP performances annoy you?

 

[Spun Silver]

My problem is more that they all hiccup. Men's TEB was one hiccup after another... and a meltdown or two. The programs seem to be almost unskatable and one of Janet Lynn's points is that high-scoring elements are included regardless of whether the skater can perform them well or not, and cleanliness is not close to godliness any more. (English aphorism alert.)

Of course I found the one clean skater at TEB very dull because of lack of artistry. I'm impossible to please and I need gkelly or wallylutz to explain to me what I really want!

 

[gkelly]

Diminishes the excitement? Under CoP, scenarios like Lambiel's infamous 2006 Skate Canada win (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja2sd5iecgI) are actually possible. Now, THAT was a crazy and exciting comeback win. Under 6.0, a 7th-place SP skater would never have been able to win (at least, I don't think it's ever happened before).

It happened with school figures also in the mix -- Elaine Zayak, 1982 Worlds.
With factored placements, not only did the skater need to win the long program, but she needed the six skaters ahead of her to finish in just the right order.

With just short and long program, the closest example I can think of is Alexei Urmanov winning 1997 Europeans from 6th place after the short. That also involved place switching in the long program, which led to even more place switching than would otherwise have occurred in the overall standings.
Exciting for Urmanov's fans, but confusing to the audience in general and to Ottavio Cinquanta in particular, thus prompting the switch from majority to one-by-one (OBO) calculations as means to crunch the numbers in

It was probably at that point that Cinquanta started pushing for system that would use absolute scores rather than ordinals and factored placements, so there would never be any place switching among skaters who had already skated.

Of course I found the one clean skater at TEB very dull because of lack of artistry. I'm impossible to please and I need gkelly or wallylutz to explain to me what I really want!

Heh. If you ever figure out what you want . . . I can pretty much guarantee that regardless of the scoring system the skaters will only give you want you want a fraction of the time.

 

[Mathman]

that [baseba;; stuff] all just went right over my head, home runs are the only thing I know... (kinda like the average skating fan... they know landed jumps and fast spins... the rest of it is way above understanding... ALL sports have that aspect)

Hey, Toni. If you really want to get terminally bored by baseball, ask someone to explain the infield fly rule.

 

[Tonichelle]

Hey, Toni. If you really want to get terminally bored by baseball, ask someone to explain the infield fly rule.

I'm sure my dad has... but I tuned him out... kinda like he tunes me out when I try to tell him that we need to drive and pick up my BFF on a certain day and he never hears me so now she's going to be flying in and have no way to get HERE... UGH!

 

[Mathman]

Great SP performances annoy you?

People are not annoyed by great SP performances. They don't like the model of carrying over points from one component of a two-game series to the next.

Like in the world series, if you win the first game 20 to nothing then drop the next two by one run, you are still behind two games to one.

This is not the only way to do it, of course. In golf you add up the winnings for the whole season and the big money winner is proclaimed the big money winner.

Lots of paradigms. Everyone likes great performances, but there are differences of opinion about what should be carried over to the finals.

 

[Tonichelle]

I just wish there were a way to have it not be such a huge lead that can't seem to be caught up to... not sure if that's possible. Sometimes a skater deserves the high marks - more so now than when CoP first came into being - but there are a lot of times when the skater does an amazing job in the SP and the judges get a little point happy... kinda like Kwan getting all those 6.0s in 05... it wasn't teh best program but it was Kwan, and she skated what she skated well... and OMG let's just throw them at her...that's what I don't like about either system...

when teh skater is great in both the SP and the LP it's not that bad... but when teh skater tanks in the LP but has enough of a lead in the SP to win, that's when the system stops working better than the 6.0

 

[Mathman]

It was probably at that point that Cinquanta started pushing for system that would use absolute scores rather than ordinals and factored placements, so there would never be any place switching among skaters who had already skated.

A definite plus on the side of the CoP. Flip-fops cannot be avoided in any ordinal system (except a dictatorship where there is only one judge).

Another definite plus is that, with calculations done to hundredths of a point, there can't be a tie. Oh wait...

 

[Spun Silver]

People are not annoyed by great SP performances. They don't like the model of carrying over points from one component of a two-game series to the next.

Like in the world series, if you win the first game 20 to nothing then drop the next two by one run, you are still behind two games to one.

This is not the only way to do it, of course. In golf you add up the winnings for the whole season and the big money winner is proclaimed the big money winner.

Lots of paradigms. Everyone likes great performances, but there are differences of opinion about what should be carried over to the finals.

I like the model of semi-finals followed by finals with fewer competitors (skate-offs). It would be clearer and more dramatic because there's more at stake. But maybe only for Worlds and Olympics. Otherwise, what would be the incentive to prepare a free skate?

 

[Mathman]

... kinda like Kwan getting all those 6.0s in 05... it wasn't teh best program but it was Kwan, and she skated what she skated well... and OMG let's just throw them at her...that's what I don't like about either system...

In 2005 the judges had bags full of 6.0s that were about to spoil. They had to throw them to Michelle or eat 'em themselves.

Like those perfect 10's that the two finalists on Dancing With the Stars got last night for a couple of crapola sambas.

 

[Tonichelle]

A definite plus on the side of the CoP. Flip-fops cannot be avoided in any ordinal system (except a dictatorship where there is only one judge).

Another definite plus is that, with calculations done to hundredths of a point, there can't be a tie. Oh wait...

Don't get me started on 2008 Mens

 

[Mathman]

I like the model of semi-finals followed by finals with fewer competitors (skate-offs). It would be clearer and more dramatic because there's more at stake. But maybe only for Worlds and Olympics. Otherwise, what would be the incentive to prepare a free skate?

The skaters in the lower ranks could still skate the LP for placements, even though their chances of getting first place might be slim (as in the 6.0 system) to none (as in a true playoff model).

 

[Violet Bliss]

I think fans just make too much of early season competitions when all kinds of "hipcups" happen. It's more due to our own need to stay active in discussions and micro analysing each performance. The top skaters look towards the key events near the end of the season and early events are just stepping stones, learning opportunities, and experiments with their programs.

I look forward to outstanding performances and near perfect programs at the later and major events.

 

[Tonichelle]

The skaters in the lower ranks could still skate the LP for placements, even though their chances of getting first place might be slim (as in the 6.0 system) to none (as in a true playoff model).

wouldn't that make Sarah Hughes Olympic Moments and Rudy Galindo Nationals moments (or Paul Wylie's Olympics for that matter) impossible then? not sure I like that idea. Especially if we're trying to give the Mathman audience element something to feed off of.

I think fans just make too much of early season competitions when all kinds of "hipcups" happen. It's more due to our own need to stay active in discussions and micro analysing each performance. The top skaters look towards the key events near the end of the season and early events are just stepping stones, learning opportunities, and experiments with their programs.

I look forward to outstanding performances and near perfect programs at the later and major events.

sure, that's fine, but when the skaters get the huge scores they get for the "rough around the edges early in the season" programs, that's when teh system isn't working.

 

[Mathman]

A skater earns s/he earns by rules even if it annoys you or ruins your excitement.

It seems like a system could be devised that does not set out deliberately to annoy people and ruin their excitement.

If the present scoring system annoys people and ruins their excitement, IMHO the ISU should have a better response than just to shrug and say, tough cookies.

 

[Tonichelle]

If the present scoring system annoys people and ruins their excitement, IMHO the ISU should have a better response than just to shrug and say, tough cookies.

but does the ISU answer to the fans or the SPORT? Mathman wants them to kowtow to Mathman's wants... Tonichelle wants them to kowtow to Tonichelle's wants... etc... but where does that leave the SPORT that wants to stay in the OLYMPICS?

 

[Mathman]

wouldn't that make Sarah Hughes Olympic Moments and Rudy Galindo Nationals moments (or Paul Wylie's Olympics for that matter) impossible then? not sure I like that idea.

I think the 6.0 system was a compromise that worked fine. It gave the top finishers in the SP a chance to "control their own destinies," while at the same time it allowed Sarah Hughes, Rudy Galindo and Paul Wylie to rise to rare glory.