Jenny's latest: Problems with Cop

[evangeline]

Many are also saying it's good to see those old marks back because they can understand them, as well as it's good skating and none of the ugly positions we're being forced to watch due to the skaters having to do them regardless of the fact they can't do them well, because if they don't? Well, forget those Level 3 and 4's we're being told is all important. People are also saying it's lovely to watch a twizzle free program, which ITA w/. At this level, I expect the skaters to be able to spin around on one foot at speed. I don't like having to see it in every single blessed program though and it's getting a bit tiresome to watch.

I've said it before. All COP is, is window dressing in response to what happened in SLC. Instead of making the sport better, it's not only not doing that, but it's succeeding in driving fans away. Oh, I forgot...We've now got a judging system that no one can understand. Why would someone want to watch a sport they don't understand the outcome of when someone who's skated a sloppy program beats someone who's been perfect!?!

I've tried now for four years and that's even reading the material many times. I still don't understand it and what's worse, I can't explain it and I've tried. How can I defend this sport when those in charge of it haven't given us that love and truly care about it a system that's not able to be explained or defended?

I've had a bad feeling about this system from the beginning, but was willing to give it an honest trial to see "What if?". Well, that time period is over and...It's simply not working. And don't talk to me about "tweaking". That should have happened long before this thing was rammed down the Figure Skating World's throats by a group who know nothing about Figure Skating, but do understand all about money.

Personally, I don't think 6.0 is that much easier to understand anyways. Granted, 6.0 obviously means the skater gave a fantastic performance, but what's the difference between, say, a 5.4 and a 5.6 in presentation? The ordinals system also gave me headaches, especially when the ordinals flip-flopped all over the place. i_love_to_skate makes a good point about CoP being a more feedback-friendly system--at least, now you can see where you agreed/disagreed with the judges, as opposed to 6.0, where the marks were relative rankings that sometimes just made people go, "huh," but not really know how to disagree with them (e.g. 2002 Olympics Ladies SP)

CoP to me is easier to understand because it's mostly addition (or subtraction). Of course, it's not a perfect system and there are glaring issues with CoP that need to be addressed, but I think we should remember that it's a relatively new system and still being ironed out. I'm sure 6.0 had its problems back in the day when it was less than a decade old.

 

[jenaj]

COP is not going away. There are constant adjustments and improvements being made to it each year. The system has only being used for the past five World Championships! Skating is in a lot better shape today than it was in 2006 and it will only get better as the years go on.

Maybe, but is it better than it was before COP was put into place? Ladies skaters are watering down their jump content, doing fewer triples, larding up their programs with junk, like catch-foot spins and spirals, that I see little kids doing at public skates. The whole idea of sport, especially Olympic sport, is for it to evolve--to break previous records and get better with each new generation of athletes. The point system allows point records to be broken, but if you look behind the numbers, you see gold medal performances with only 5 triples and silver medal performances with 3 triples and a fall. Before COP, we went from double jumps in the Peggy and Dorothy eras, to triple jumps, to triple-triples and 7 triple programs in the Michelle/Tara/Irina era. Now we are going backwards with double-doubles (axels), few attempts at triple-triples, skaters not even doing the triple lutz or loop and disincentives to even try things like triple axels. And let's not even get into the hideous spiral sequences, the weird spins and the total lack of any artistry. True, skaters are now required to rotate their jumps and take off from the right edge. But couldn't that have been accomplished without junking the entire system?

 

[Ginask8s]

I think that overall COP is a more concrete way to judge. I think that the replay business is horrible.. If it looks clean to the naked eye then forget about it. I dont think that every jump should be reviewed. Once you get pegged for ur they seem to really focus on you. I think someone like Marai is doomed now. They will always be watching her very carefully., because she has a "history" of ur. Instant replay is ruining skating..

 

[Spun Silver]

It seems to me if you judge it by its very best products, it's a pretty good system and maybe somewhat more transparent (leaving aside the anonymous judging). But there are a lot of bodies strewn along the wayside - those who could not pull off the trick of piling up points while maintaining basics and showing some style. :scowl:

And even those who are the creme de la creme can get by with some obvious major weaknesses because they're busy racking up points in other areas. The system's goal of giving credit to all aspects of skating, not just jumps, seems to backfire sometimes through its "add points and stir" method.

 

[janetfan]

This is what I fear is happening. Figure skating seems to be headed more and more toward the model of, say, wrestling.

Is wrestling sport or entertainment? Well, wrestling is as sportly a sport as anyone can wish, at the amateur level. There are matches for high school and college athletes. The competiors get points for performing various feats of skill and strength. The meets are duly attended by the parents of the participants, and every four years someone wins a medal at the Olympics.

Then there is professional wrestling, which is the equivalent of Todd Eldredge dressing up as Frankenstein's monster for a Halloween special.

This is what was good about 6.0. The audience could get involved in the scoring. "Wow, Michelle is in a zone! I'll give her a 5.9! What? The Russian judge gave her a 5.5?! Booooooo!!!!!"

Now, all the audience can do is sit there dumbly, waiting for the experts (or the protocols the next day) to tell us what we ought to think.

Yes, the CoP brings figure skating more in line with other sports -- but at what cost?

I find it rather interesting seeing fans that delight in reading, studying, and even memorizing CoP 'boxscores." It reminds me of when I was growing up and there would always be a kid who was a baseball boxscore fanatic. And yes, this kid typically was the worst player in the neighborhood

It never ceases to amaze me that the strongest CoP supporters, the ones who love the protocols, the pcs and defend Cop like it was a member of their family are typically too young to have seen and really experienced that many 6.0 competitions. In a way I feel sorry for them because they will never know what it was like watching those 5.5's and 5.8's coming out from an identifiable judge representing an identifiable federation and nation. That thrill does not exist anymore and I miss it.

I happen to have a strong interest in skating history and history in general.
I have been a fan of skating since my parents took me to see the '68 Natls in Philadelphia won by graceful Peggy Fleming.

Thinking about what I am seeing this season leaves me feeling disappointed. That is really unsusual in an Olympic season. Having made a decent effort to increase my knowledge and understanding of CoP has left me with a strange feeling that some of 6.0's worst flaws have actually been amplified under CoP.
The scoring by reputation seems just as prevalent and even more so at times.

I will never agree that a skater falling down four times has great skating skills - atleast not for that performance because to me jumping is also a skating skill.

The way the programs are now won - by racking up the most points possible in the required time limit has given the current sport a different look to me.
This point will be disputed but I would rather hear an argument from a fan who goes back atleast before the Kwan era and preferably back to Katerina's era.

Without proper perspective the arguments and defense of Cop from such new skating fans never quite manages to convince me. Part of it is they simply didn't see enough 6.0 to acquire a passion that would last for a lifetime.

 

[MissIzzy]

Oh? So age determines everything now? Anyone who hasn't been watching the sport long enough has absolutely no right to their own opinion? The elders know what's better, and we're too stupid to see it?
I admit I'm apparently too young for this debate. I was still gestating when Katarina won her first gold, I was three and a half at her second, and I only started watching at the 2006 Olympics.(Which would make some people refuse to believe I even exist, since obviously the sport couldn't get new fans after this horrible new system ruined it, but lets not get into that conversation, because when people start claiming I don't exist I tend to excuse myself)
Maybe the reason those of us who started watching under CoP like it more is because we don't have any past to romanticize; we just had a complicated scoring system to understand, just like those who started watching under 6.0 did. Most of us, I believe, have watched footage on YouTube. It's not in the moment, no, but in the past, in the age of mass uploaders before the copyright rules started getting them suspended, I watched entire competitions from the past, sometimes without even knowing the outcome. And when the marks came up? I felt complete and utter confusion. Even when I knew the result! Occasionally a six came up and that was cool, but how often do sixes come up? More often it's 5.8s and 5.9s and what's the difference between watching those and watching skaters try to break 60 or 70 or 80 in the short, or 100 in the free?
The current system may have its problems, but this condescension to anyone who started watching within the past five years or so is absolutely not necessary.

 

[i love to skate]

It never ceases to amaze me that the strongest CoP supporters, the ones who love the protocols, the pcs and defend Cop like it was a member of their family are typically too young to have seen and really experienced that many 6.0 competitions. In a way I feel sorry for them because they will never know what it was like watching those 5.5's and 5.8's coming out from an identifiable judge representing an identifiable federation and nation. That thrill does not exist anymore and I miss it.

Without proper perspective the arguments and defense of Cop from such new skating fans never quite manages to convince me. Part of it is they simply didn't see enough 6.0 to acquire a passion that would last for a lifetime.

I will respond to this since I am a COP supporter. I have witnessed many 6.0s in my lifetime and watched many great competitions. I was a rink rat growing up and all my time was spent at the rink, watching skating on TV, or thinking about skating.

That being said, I also remember the horrendous marking that occurred at many competitions. The videotaped "foot taping" at the World Championships and the tape recorded phone calls. As a young skater at the age of 10 I already knew which judges liked me and which didn't. When I looked at the judging panel at a competition and saw who was judging I would already know where I would place even if I skated my very best. Do you not find that sad?

I was 16 years old when SLC happened and horribly embarassed of the sport I love so much. Skating needed a drastic overhaul because of this awful event. It was something that was building for years and SLC was the nail in the coffin for 6.0.

I have a passion for skating that absolutely runs through my entire body - I don't care how corny that sounds - it's true. 6.0 threatened to ruin the sport I love so much and COP is a step in the right direction so I will always defend it. That being said, I consider it a work in progress and of course changes and improvements will continue to be made. Maybe us COP "defenders" don't think enough about the casual fan but I think people who do not like COP romanticize the vision of 6.0 far too much.

 

[janetfan]

Oh? So age determines everything now? Anyone who hasn't been watching the sport long enough has absolutely no right to their own opinion? The elders know what's better, and we're too stupid to see it?
I admit I'm apparently too young for this debate. I was still gestating when Katarina won her first gold, I was three and a half at her second, and I only started watching at the 2006 Olympics.(Which would make some people refuse to believe I even exist, since obviously the sport couldn't get new fans after this horrible new system ruined it, but lets not get into that conversation, because when people start claiming I don't exist I tend to excuse myself)
Maybe the reason those of us who started watching under CoP like it more is because we don't have any past to romanticize; we just had a complicated scoring system to understand, just like those who started watching under 6.0 did. Most of us, I believe, have watched footage on YouTube. It's not in the moment, no, but in the past, in the age of mass uploaders before the copyright rules started getting them suspended, I watched entire competitions from the past, sometimes without even knowing the outcome. And when the marks came up? I felt complete and utter confusion. Even when I knew the result! Occasionally a six came up and that was cool, but how often do sixes come up? More often it's 5.8s and 5.9s and what's the difference between watching those and watching skaters try to break 60 or 70 or 80 in the short, or 100 in the free?
The current system may have its problems, but this condescension to anyone who started watching within the past five years or so is absolutely not necessary.

I didn't say you are not entitled to your opinion and certainly didn't say you were studpid.

Thankyou for sharing your thoughts, I found them interesting and full of conviction.
And yes, I was romantizing for sure - and didn't know there was a rule against it here.

 

[evangeline]

The way the programs are now won - by racking up the most points possible in the required time limit has given the current sport a different look to me.
This point will be disputed but I would rather hear an argument from a fan who goes back atleast before the Kwan era and preferably back to Katerina's era.

Without proper perspective the arguments and defense of Cop from such new skating fans never quite manages to convince me. Part of it is they simply didn't see enough 6.0 to acquire a passion that would last for a lifetime.

Admittedly, I am one of the young'uns you are referring to (I wasn't even born yet during the Katarina Witt era), but I find your ad antiquitatem argument rather unfair.

As MissIzzy has pointed out, we young'uns can conversely argue that we are in fact at an advantage because we don't come with rose-tinted sunglasses

 

[Hikaru]

Maybe I do defend COP without thinking of the casual fan. I just don't buy the arguement that COP is that much harder to understand that 6.0. Ordinals were a messy, messy system and I think that even fewer people would have been able to understand that if they had been shown what the complete list of ordinals looked like. Thank you for your kind words

I started to follow skating in the mid 90's, and since I'm not a skater and in my country that sport has no followers, I learned by info on the internet on jumps and stuff, to learn to identify them etc. I would consider myself aself-taught fan, and I have to say that the 6.0 system was very hard for me to understand. I would see a skater land her jumps and everything, but get low marks just because judges were saving marks for the last group of skaters. I don't think under that system you were rewarded for what you did, but rather given a regular score in the case that a more famous skater did a bit better, or did just the same as the lesser known skater.

I'm not saying that COP is perfect, but I do not think it has killed artistry as Bianchetti claims every time she can, as I have seen very creative programs under COP. I don't know if for the case of under rotation a solution could be that depending on the level of difficulty of the jump, you get deducted a certain amount of points (i.e. less points deducted from a UR 3 Lutz and more for an UR 3toe). Or maybe instead of downgrading a triple to the base value of a double and applied negative GOE, it should still be a base value triple and only deduct GOE... I'm no expert, so I won't ramble on about this. I do think however that the new system must be reviewed in those aspect so that as Jenny says, the skaters that are performing difficult jumps don't get discourage.

 

[janetfan]

As MissIzzy has pointed out, we young'uns can conversely argue that we are in fact at an advantage because we don't come with rose-tinted sunglasses

Thanks evangeline, I particularly enjoyed your last sentence and actually found it not only humorous but also kind of sweet.

Perhaps I should have signed off on my "romantic" post:

"Those under 35 need not reply"

Actually, I am kind of in shock that the three of you let mathman slide with the wrestling comparison. If you read it again it seems more disrespectful than anything I wrote:

mathman dared to say:
"This is what I fear is happening. Figure skating seems to be headed more and more toward the model of, say, wrestling."

I don't know what is wrong with you CoP fans but those are definitely
fighting words where I come from


and besides I was only fawning, remembering the magical look Dorothy gave us after the Gold medal was placed around her neck.

 

[Blades of Passion]

My appreciation for Jenny Kirk has definitely increased.

It is good to see yet another skater agree with me with regards to the problem of how UR jumps are scored under CoP.

 

[prettykeys]

My appreciation for Jenny Kirk has definitely increased.

It is good to see yet another skater agree with me with regards to the problem of how UR jumps are scored under CoP.

Yes.

 

[Mathman]

...(argumentum) ad antiquitatem...

I love this board!

 

[kandidy]

At least COP gives drive to the skater to improve in the field you are lack of. Look at Mirai's expression before the score was announced. She knew it's gonna be DG.
I agree that it should reduce the penalty of wrong edge and UR but focus more on the overall smooth and flow of the jump.
Lastly, I think the COP or not, it's got nothing to do much with the popularity with audience. Japan and Korea audiences seemed fine with COP as long as there is diva skater they are cheering.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Please raise your hand if you thought The 6.0 system was perfect. If you believe that to be the case, please let me know how long it took to perfect it. This is my big issue with every single complaint about COP. It seems, to me that as a system, it's easier to fix because there are hard-and-fast rules to be followed. Whether or not the effort will be made to fix it, of course, is another question.

It also seems to be a more difficult system for many to accept, not because it's tougher to understand (because really, it isn't) but because it's different.

But I also defend janetfan for a second. I am a young skating fan. Not only that, I considered myself the type of fan that ISU was courting for a while - ie, the fairweather fan. Meaning that if Canada was doing well, I enjoyed the sport. When Canadian skaters weren't, I lost interest. After Stoijko, S/P, and B/K retired in a short time span (within a season, I believe), I basically stopped watching (the SLC scandal didn't help). So yeah, I missed a lot of beauty that I wish I hadn't (for example, performances I've recently discovered on youtube include A/P 2002 Flamenco OD, G/P 1998 FD, and many others). Not only that, but I feel for the "COP's killing the sport" meme hook, line and sinker, so while I watched the Turin games, I did so without re-engaging with the sport (and more specifically as a fairweather-fan, Buttle didn't really appeal to me then.) Hell, watching old programs, I find the reading of the scores somewhat distended and uninteresting (somewhat. It's hard not to have a big goofy grin on your face when Torvill and Dean get those matchless sixes)

Now, I started watching again in 2008 (so really, only a year-and-a-half ago), and basically, everything people were saying seemed to be untrue? No artistry? Well, I thought Buttle, DelShos, Asada, Kim, V/M, and D/D had programs that were artistically strong. It didn't seem that artistry was less prized than in the days when Bonaly, Goebbel, Stoijko et al were multiple medalists. And more than that, using youtube (oh, how I love youtube), I found a huge number of programs that I just loved.

Going back, I wonder if figure skating really struggles with it's paradigm. Under 6.0, it had aspirations of being a sport (after all, it's clearly athletic and in the Olympics) that was judged more like an art (everything being relative) that was marketed as an entertainment (the professional circuit, for example. Or Kurt Browning skating in Vegas (?) with four lovely chorus girls). Because I don't consider it an art and what I find entertaining is watching how the athleticism drives everything, I'm fine with the direction it's heading in. The system needs refinement, yes - but not overhauling. And, truthfully, whenever someone kvetches about the sport's declining popularity, I have to admit I tend to roll my eyes a bit.

 

[Tigger]

Was 6.0 perfect? Of course not. However, what needed fixed wasn't the system, so much as it was the people who used that system to give the marks out.

Did the ISU actually decide to clean up it's act and do what really needed to be done? Which would have been IMO...

No more Volunteer Judges. If Judges were paid by the ISU, instead of being Volunteers from their respective Skating Governing Body, as well as the training needed, I think that could have truly helped. That would have in turn...

No Judges representing their Country, but under the ISU's flag. Which even though that's happening now, is it really? We all know who is representing which Country.

However...And most importantly...

Open results. We see which Judge gave which mark to a skater/team. None of this anoymous crap which allows for the double dealing to happen.

What hurts COP IMO, is that we have the same group of clowns using this system that used the other system to manipulate things the way they wanted them. Only now, thanks to no one knowing who gave what mark, who knows what's going to end up happening the next Skating Scandal?

And there will be another Skating Scandal. What's going to happen after that? They can't make a worse move than w/COP, but then again we are talking about the ISU here, so...

 

[schiele]

Was 6.0 perfect? Of course not. However, what needed fixed wasn't the system, so much as it was the people who used that system to give the marks out.

Did the ISU actually decide to clean up it's act and do what really needed to be done? Which would have been IMO...

No more Volunteer Judges. If Judges were paid by the ISU, instead of being Volunteers from their respective Skating Governing Body, as well as the training needed, I think that could have truly helped. That would have in turn...

No Judges representing their Country, but under the ISU's flag. Which even though that's happening now, is it really? We all know who is representing which Country.

However...And most importantly...

Open results. We see which Judge gave which mark to a skater/team. None of this anoymous crap which allows for the double dealing to happen.

What hurts COP IMO, is that we have the same group of clowns using this system that used the other system to manipulate things the way they wanted them. Only now, thanks to no one knowing who gave what mark, who knows what's going to end up happening the next Skating Scandal?

And there will be another Skating Scandal. What's going to happen after that? They can't make a worse move than w/COP, but then again we are talking about the ISU here, so...

Very nice perspective, which is not very often brought forward.. Agree with this truely.
In addition, let me just say as someone who grew up admiring Witt with a skating fan mum who taught me to love the beauty of the sport, I am feeling suffocated with what I'm seeing most of the time now. And my mum has told me around 2006-2007 that she cannot enjoy skating anymore because she doesnt understand the scoring and doesn't see any excitment anymore. With all due respect, I don't think that happened bacuse she's getting older or she's a dinosaur compared to some of the fans here. If it wasn't for my determination to figure out the system, I could've shared the view. We as die hard skating fans are the exception to the general audience.. Die-hard fans will naturally know the ins and outs of the system but if it's a true sport we're talking about, general audiences will follow the sport and will be able to understand who won and why. WIthout a mass audience, how is your lovely sport going to be financed? Yes, some countries sustain the interest but I'm pretty sure (for some at least) their excitment for their star overshadows their discontent with the system..
Btw, I'm NOT saying we should go back to 6.0 system! It was unfair, there is no question about it. I don't think jenny is saying this either.. What we're saying is fix what you have, fix in a way so that instead of enhancing the problems and motivating ppl to dumb down their programmes, give them incentive to grow. Is the sport better athletically now? Really? With jump content reducing continiously.. I doubt it..
And also fix the scoring in a way to make it comparable for general audience.. Keep the current structure but transfer the final score into a different benchmark which is understandable.. I'm sure many ppl have ideas as to how this can be done, it's no rocket science.

 

[James R]

Jenny is right on this time. CoP is slowly choking figure skating to death. Every season I get more and more bored, and wonder if this will be the last season I watch. It's the same programs over and over. The same judging insanity over and over. Skaters falling all over the ice to try to meet the technical requirements and levels. Invisible fractions of a rotation deciding podiums. PCS gifts and PCS robbery. Skaters blowing entire jumps and still being held up to win. A handful of skaters with the ability to include actual artistry while skating in a CoP straitjacket, most without.

...Why do I watch skating again?

 

[antmanb]

I'm also curious what people thought of the interim system?

Personally i thought it was a joke, if basically had all the usual pitfalls of 6.0 judging together with annonymity of the judges to allow for greater undiscoverable cheating.

Ant