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- Aug 4, 2003
If Brian thinks the Quad is everything about skating, then he, Evan Lyscacek and Tim Goebel can feel free to go along with Evan's XGames idea and have a quad contest. Otherwise they need to come to grips with COP.
Joubert / Buttle debate nature of sport
- Thread starter Geesesk8
- Start date
Breakdown of points
If you compare Jeff and Brian's spin element marks alone, you'll see that Jeff was a full 5 points ahead of Brian. In my opinion, Brian is an outstanding jumper, yes, and I agree the quad should be given a higher value than what is currently listed in the scale of values. However, Brian would do himself a favor by training his spin elements a little more to bump them up from the Level 2 they received to at least a Level 3 or 4. All of Jeff's spins were marked as Level 4. It's not just about the jumps folks!
If you compare Jeff and Brian's spin element marks alone, you'll see that Jeff was a full 5 points ahead of Brian. In my opinion, Brian is an outstanding jumper, yes, and I agree the quad should be given a higher value than what is currently listed in the scale of values. However, Brian would do himself a favor by training his spin elements a little more to bump them up from the Level 2 they received to at least a Level 3 or 4. All of Jeff's spins were marked as Level 4. It's not just about the jumps folks!
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2007
Nah, even when Joubert is consistent with the 3Axel, he get less height on it than any of his other jumps. The rotation is usually squeaked out as well.
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- Feb 4, 2008
I couldn't have put it better! Brian's quad and jump quality should have reduced the margin between them, but because buttle did three combos whereas Brian only did 2 (one of them being a 2A-1T), and Jeff having better spins and footwork, he deserved his gold medal.
And as for the artistry vs technique debate, I agree it's ridiculous! Jeff has a great flow and great ease on the ice, but I think he's a bore. Personaly, I get goosebumps when Brian skates, so I think artistry is subjective, and not in oposition with technique.
I wouldn't compare Brian to Surya. Surya had difficult but horrible jumps.
Well, Evan Lysacek has a lot more stuff in his programmes than just a quad. Besides, he has used CoP well to gather points, in my opinion.
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- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
I just looked at the LP protocols and they both appear to have gotten the same levels for their step sequences, with almost identical GOEs. I didn't notice that before. Buttle did get better levels for his spins. But the differences in base value are so small for spins - it looks like it was the combinations & 2nd axel that clinched it for him.
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The fact that Buttle did not get a big advantage for the steps and spins makes no sense at all. I think he outskated Joubert in all categories, and that includes outjumped this time around.
Jeff was technically superior to Joubert only except for the lack of a quad and perhaps powerfulness. I think it interesting that some of the media reports reduce Jeff's skating only to beauty and arts. I mean, he is definitely one of the most artistic skaters. But he is technically awesome. His edges quality and all the plus GOEs on his jumps, steps, and spins tell the story.
Kudos to Jeff Buttle for winning the World Championship.
Just to add a dose of reality, wasn't this the first time that Jeff skated a clean FS? I can't recall any other over the past five years.
So my question is: can Jeff repeat this performance and successfully defend his title? If Joubert and Weir maximize their TES with quads, quad combos and 3-jump combos, can a clean Buttle skate still beat them?
Presumably, Jeff will have a new FS next season and he won't have the benefit of a second year with the same music and choreography. That could make it more difficult for him to deliver a clean skate.
Just to add a dose of reality, wasn't this the first time that Jeff skated a clean FS? I can't recall any other over the past five years.
So my question is: can Jeff repeat this performance and successfully defend his title? If Joubert and Weir maximize their TES with quads, quad combos and 3-jump combos, can a clean Buttle skate still beat them?
Presumably, Jeff will have a new FS next season and he won't have the benefit of a second year with the same music and choreography. That could make it more difficult for him to deliver a clean skate.
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2006
If the quad squad land their quads as well as maximizing other aspects, there's no way in hell Jeff has a chance of beating them, unless they make significant mistakes because their base values would be huge. Let's see what next season holds but I only see Takahashi having abillity to do this. Well, Joubert can just land 3 quads and forget about everything else and the judes would still reward him the gold. He seems to be their pet.
You wouldn't know that last Saturday morning.
Yeah, I agree. I was wondering where these PCSs coming from. Yes, he has the speed and power and he has greatly improved in in-betweens. But still, he can't possibly exceed Jeff's presentation. There's no question about that.
Joubert doesn't have to 'exceed Jeff's presentation' if he can land 2 quads and max out his combinations. If he did that, Joubert's PCS would go way up in SS and PE.
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2007
Skating skills even higher?? He got the highest of all the competitors... Which is something I really don't understand. I can understand the high marks for performance and execution, his program is not Poèta or The Swan - but he executes it well with power and self-confidence.
But skating skills? Skating skills???
I think that Takahashi deserves the highest SS, he is the perfect combination of speed, power, grace and elegance, has an amazing quality over the ice and good edges - and he managed to maintain that even though his skate wasn't perfect.
Then Buttle, then Weir + Lambiel (I think they are even, both were a bit slow on Saturday), then Kozuka and Chan... Perhaps Kozuka directly behind Buttle, the guy is good. Somewhere up with them is Abbott of course.
Brian is a good skater, but if we are talking skating skills with speed and edging etc. - I think he is rather, well, normal. But then again, landing a Quad is a skating skill.
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I meant Joubert's skating skills compared to Buttle's, not to Takahashi's.
But if Joubert could do 3 quads in a program (4T, 4T+3T, 4S) as he's done before, he'd even top Takahashi.
I don't see Lambiel contending for medals any more unless he gives up show skating. In his Worlds FS, he had just two combos, only 3 clean jumping passes (2A, 3Z+2T+2T, 3S), his footwork was L3 and L2, his flying sit spin was only L1 and his final combo spin L3. IMO, the PCS scores he got were much too high for what he did, and he got them only because he had been a two-time World Champion.
Lambiel's whining over his 'low' PCS marks in the SP show a kind of arrogance not merited by his current level of skating. If he wants to be treated like the champion he once was, let him make a real effort to continue to skate like one.
But if Joubert could do 3 quads in a program (4T, 4T+3T, 4S) as he's done before, he'd even top Takahashi.
I don't see Lambiel contending for medals any more unless he gives up show skating. In his Worlds FS, he had just two combos, only 3 clean jumping passes (2A, 3Z+2T+2T, 3S), his footwork was L3 and L2, his flying sit spin was only L1 and his final combo spin L3. IMO, the PCS scores he got were much too high for what he did, and he got them only because he had been a two-time World Champion.
Lambiel's whining over his 'low' PCS marks in the SP show a kind of arrogance not merited by his current level of skating. If he wants to be treated like the champion he once was, let him make a real effort to continue to skate like one.
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2007
I was just talking about Joubert's skating skills in general, his high PCS doesn't really bug me except for the skating skills - the judges really have to do something about that. It is very blurry... Why not give Joubert a plain 6.5 or 7 for skating skills, but a 8 or 8.5 for performance and execution? Why not punish Weir with a 6.0 in transitions but give him what he deserves for skating skills and execution (about 8)? But that's not the topic here...
I am not sure that Joubert would win with that program against Takahashi. Not if Takahashi does 2 Quads and 2 Triple Axels - then the only difference would be that Joubert gets 1.5 or 2 points more for his Quad than Takahashi for his 3A. Takahashi can make up for those points with his spins and the positive GOE for his 3As.
I am sad that I have to agree about Lambiel though. It's not like he was a consistent skater before - but it was kind of worse than normal this season.
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2007
His final combination spin should have been level 4, the rules just suck. Great scratch spins don't count for anything (in terms of the level) and multiple difficult variations have to been on different feet AND in different positions -- so dumb.
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