Jump technique discussion

[jkun]

I think it's reasonable as Yuna at 17-19 was at her peak. But we need data about their jumps by that time.

As for now I believe in the data from Sochi onward provided by Vanshilar.

I think Yuna peaked at worlds 2013. Would be cool to see data from there.

 

[Pika]

That is probably due to a special device Mr Mishin invented: a vest (adjustable to each skater) which gives a buzzing sound when a skater's arm position is not correct during a jump. (Pavlov's dog comes to mind!)

No, seriously? That's amazing :shocked:

 

[Tutto]

No, seriously? That's amazing :shocked:

Yes, here is a link to the article which is mainly about another device - a sort of spin disc but also mentions the vest and that there is another one for leg position as well:

http://eanews.ru/news/sport/Prevzoy...ikalnyy_trenazher_dlya_figuristov_02_12_2014/

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I wish more skaters knew how to make the half loop look like this:
https://instagram.com/p/bJlLntLAln/

I've never really liked very many half loops in combo but maybe it's just the way they are executed that is really my hang-up.

 

[StitchMonkey]

I wish more skaters knew how to make the half loop look like this:
https://instagram.com/p/bJlLntLAln/

I've never really liked very many half loops in combo but maybe it's just the way they are executed that is really the issue.

A lot of skaters seem to keep their free leg very bent at the knee, It make the jump look sloppy and like a klutzy hop. Gracie's leg is straight, and it keeps the lines attractive. I think that is a big part.

 

[AsadaFanBoy]

Oh my god. <3 Gracie Gold's jumping. If only she could get it together for a competition...


The very neat half loop is reminiscent of Lipinski's half loop. Very well done.

 

[hurrah]

Gracie Gold's jumping skill is simply a-mazing. She must have some very serious competition nerve problems indeed.

May be she can try doing what Eliza did last season. Just go to many competitions one after another and treat them as if they are practices, until her nerves settle down.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

FWIW: The Gracie jumps that I linked were from two years ago. It was posted in the summer of 2013 before Sochi.

 

[russianbratz]

I think Yuna peaked at worlds 2013. Would be cool to see data from there.

Depends on how you define her peak. Her most complex jump layout was probably at Vancouver. Her only 7 triple program (with the loop) as a senior was at the Cup of Russia to Miss Saigon. It had 3 combo jumping passes too but then they quality/power wasn't there as it was starting from Dance Macabre.

 

[mirai4life]

Currently, Wakaba Higuchi has the best jumping technique for me <3

 

[Meoima]

Currently, Wakaba Higuchi has the best jumping technique for me <3

Wakaba lip.

Liza has the best technique. No edge call whatsoever.

 

[hurrah]

IMO, Wakaba has the most classical 'textbook' technique amongst her contemporaries. She has great power and surge to her jumps that reminds me of Midori and Tonya's jumps. That said, I'm not all that partial to Wakaba's jumps.

I can see that Liza has well-ingrained technique, but she doesn't have that powerful surge that Wakaba's jumps have. And I don't know about Liza's flip. Sure she's not called on it, but it sure looks like she could lip any day.

I have just gained respect for Gracie Gold's jumps. I really like her jumps. Powerful and fluid but not as insistent as Wakaba's jumps.

Yuna's toe jumps were very nice, too. I prefer her lutz to Liza's. She did have the same problem as Liza to a certain extent in that her flip technique was on the verge of a lip.

I think that out of recent skaters, only Caro and Miki are the only skaters who could manage a clear lutz and flip. I have always admired Caro's jumps. It was only that she was far too inconsistent. Miki's jumps are actually rather like Liza's. High and without too much prep, but rather lacking in flow out.

I do think that Miki was actually a very naturally gifted jumper and athlete (bit lacking in mental stability). She could not only do 3toeloop as a second jump, she could also do the 3loop. And she nearly did a 4salchow. She may not have been the best technician, but in my estimation, second only to Ito Midori in terms of natural talent.

Oh yeah. And in terms of edge jumps, Mao, I think, is a natural genius. How else would you explain her ability to land 3-axels? She's the tallest woman ever to land a 3-axel, and it's not like she muscles through them.

 

[OS]

The skater with the best technique should able to be in full command of the same jump mechanics while display subtle change in speed, power, exertion to deliver different shades of emotions, mood as appropriate with consistency and virtuosity as and when required. To say the best pianist is the one who can move their fingers fastest or loudest is missing the point and the purpose of music and choreography.

Figure skating is after all an artistic endeavor as well as sport. Compare her same jumps in programs such as Danse Macabre - supernatural power full speed ahead, vs something like Gershwin (soft effortless and dainty) or Les Miserable (Epic grandiose) or Adios Nonino (pensive and delicate), she displays good spectrum of same jumps with different suble expressions. There's no one I have seen in this sport who were able to deliver jumps as part of the music choreography as well as Yuna Kim can, beyond the aesthetics or merely timing. Such painstaking efforts aren't officially rewarded or appreciated so much under COP, and you'd see skaters would strategise to take the easiest route for maximum 'scoring keeping' when an easier, safer, simpler route may deliver the exact same thing in terms of scoring. It is therefore always admirable when we see people goes the extra mile to let their techniques be part of the expressions for music choreography rather than compromised for scoring.

 

[solani]

The skater with the best technique should able to be in full command of the same jump mechanics while display subtle change in speed, power, exertion to deliver different shades of emotions, mood as appropriate with consistency and virtuosity as and when required. To say the best pianist is the one who can move their fingers fastest or loudest is missing the point and the purpose of music and choreography.

Figure skating is after all an artistic endeavor as well as sport. Compare her same jumps in programs such as Danse Macabre - supernatural power full speed ahead, vs something like Gershwin (soft effortless and dainty) or Les Miserable (Epic grandiose) or Adios Nonino (pensive and delicate), she displays good spectrum of same jumps with different suble expressions. There's no one I have seen in this sport who were able to deliver jumps as part of the music choreography as well as Yuna Kim can, beyond the aesthetics or merely timing. Such painstaking efforts aren't officially rewarded or appreciated so much under COP, and you'd see skaters would strategise to take the easiest route for maximum 'scoring keeping' when an easier, safer, simpler route may deliver the exact same thing in terms of scoring. It is therefore always admirable when we see people goes the extra mile to let their techniques be part of the expressions for music choreography rather than compromised for scoring.

I'm not sure if you're not interpreting too much into Yuna's performances (from very different parts in her career). Saying that Yuna's jumps were "pensive and delicate" in Adios Nonino, because of her artistic endeavour is really going too far imho. Then we could also assume that she didn't do that 2A-3T because it wouldn't have fit into the program from an artistic viewpoint or something like that. And she did take the time to flirt with the judges/audience at some point in the program, although that really didn't fit the mood of the music. She was past her peak, still great though.

 

[OS]

I'm not sure if you're not interpreting too much into Yuna's performances (from very different parts in her career). Saying that Yuna's jumps were "pensive and delicate" in Adios Nonino, because of her artistic endeavour is really going too far imho. Then we could also assume that she didn't do that 2A-3T because it wouldn't have fit into the program from an artistic viewpoint or something like that. And she did take the time to flirt with the judges/audience at some point in the program, although that really didn't fit the mood of the music. She was past her peak, still great though.

I'd argue her left out 2A3T wasn't out of choice. The rule changes post Vancouver prevent her to include it unless she include 3loop (and risk back injury again) otherwise it wouldn't fit into the jump pass. If ISU did not limit 2 x 2A is allowed in the free program, I'd be shocked if she chose not to include it. But let's not get into it too much, it annoys me to no end no matter what other people say, it is after all, the free program. That and the +0.22 for 3Ts, 0.44 for 3t3t in second new rules all depreciate the value of harder jumps such as the lutz, which many argued were already undervalued and where she was most competitive on, to have included 3 in her pair of programs, as with other skaters who have greater difficulty. Now the field is hopelessly out of wack, even if you have difficulty, it is harder to catch up with 3t3T skaters who have fool proof PCS.

As for 'pensive and delicate', it is about familiarity and comparison analysis relative to her past work as well as others. If you are familiar with any aspect of performing (music recital, theatre), you'd know even when playing/singing/reciting the same notes/passage, only when you become masterful you are able to bring many subtle difference within these limitation to fit the mood as required. Same with any dancing move... as a dancer, no pirouette are the same from one piece to the next, from one performance to the next... and in this case of skating. I think Kim's jumps does indeed display a quality of its own that is beyond the mechanics. I doubt I am the only one who noted this, her jumps complete her program, not separate from it. I seem to remember Hanyu expressed to have admired this quality and tries to emulate in his programs.

 

[solani]

I'd argue her left out 2A3T wasn't out of choice. The rule changes post Vancouver prevent her to include it unless she include 3loop (and risk back injury again) otherwise it wouldn't fit into the jump pass. If ISU did not limit 2 x 2A is allowed in the free program, I'd be shocked if she chose not to include it. But let's not get into it too much, it annoys me to no end no matter what other people say, it is after all, the free program. That and the +0.22 for 3Ts, 0.44 for 3t3t in second new rules all depreciate the value of harder jumps such as the lutz, which many argued were already undervalued and where she was most competitive on, to have included 3 in her pair of programs, as with other skaters who have greater difficulty. Now the field is hopelessly out of wack, even if you have difficulty, it is harder to catch up with 3t3T skaters who have fool proof PCS.

As for 'pensive and delicate', it is about familiarity and comparison analysis relative to her past work as well as others. If you are familiar with any aspect of performing (music recital, theatre), you'd know even when playing/singing/reciting the same notes/passage, only when you become masterful you are able to bring many subtle difference within these limitation to fit the mood as required. Same with any dancing move... as a dancer, no pirouette are the same from one piece to the next, from one performance to the next... and in this case of skating. I think Kim's jumps does indeed display a quality of its own that is beyond the mechanics. I doubt I am the only one who noted this, her jumps complete her program, not separate from it. I seem to remember Hanyu expressed to have admired this quality and tries to emulate in his programs.

I've never doubted Yuna Kim's performance abilities at the peak of her career, they were sublime indeed.

 

[Ophelia]

The skater with the best technique should able to be in full command of the same jump mechanics while display subtle change in speed, power, exertion to deliver different shades of emotions, mood as appropriate with consistency and virtuosity as and when required. To say the best pianist is the one who can move their fingers fastest or loudest is missing the point and the purpose of music and choreography.

This.

 

[Globetrotter]

I think that out of recent skaters, only Caro and Miki are the only skaters who could manage a clear lutz and flip. I have always admired Caro's jumps. It was only that she was far too inconsistent. Miki's jumps are actually rather like Liza's. High and without too much prep, but rather lacking in flow out.

I do think that Miki was actually a very naturally gifted jumper and athlete (bit lacking in mental stability). She could not only do 3toeloop as a second jump, she could also do the 3loop. And she nearly did a 4salchow. She may not have been the best technician, but in my estimation, second only to Ito Midori in terms of natural talent.

Oh yeah. And in terms of edge jumps, Mao, I think, is a natural genius. How else would you explain her ability to land 3-axels? She's the tallest woman ever to land a 3-axel, and it's not like she muscles through them.

I have to disagree with this. Ando's flip was virtually non existent after 2008-9 and she excluded it from her LP. She bravely went for the 3Lz-3R combination but other than 2A-3T, she rarely tags a 3T after a triple jump. I wouldn't consider her a naturally gifted jumper in the same mould as say Ito or Harding, but then, nobody is really. Caro Kostner has some of the best jumps with possibly the best flow out of them - good speed, beautiful air positions and textbook perfect edges. much as Maria Butyrskaya did but unfortunately, both these ladies were inconsistent and had their frequent mental walkabouts. Liza Tuks have good height with pretty reasonable flow out on her jumps actually - I would only agree that the poor flow came mainly on those that take off on the inside edge - flip and salchow. Perhaps she dislikes going off the inside edges? The lutz and axel are really explosive with good speed in and out. I would think of Asada as naturally beautiful jumper but I wouldn't say the best technique. The salchow always looked suspect and she has never landed a true lutz and the 3T tends to get dinged for < when in combo, not sure why. The 3R and 3F are great though.

 

[hurrah]

I don't think Mao is a natural toe jumper. She's a natural edge jumper, meaning that with her flexible ankles and 'bouncy' knees, she's got a natural flair for doing axel, loop, and yes, salchow now. Mao's salchow was actually one of the most stable jumps during Sochi season and I think she's managed to get a handle on the technique very well now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZvmcMtodFc

When she landed it, I don't think she's ever got a UR call on her salchow, I think (not absolutely sure).

But that said, yes, Mao's flip is really improved!! :dance: The one she did at Worlds exhibition 2014 was a lovely high jump with speed in and out. I think she'll only keep on getting better.

And then, there is her doing a 3-toe loop as the second jump, and then, there is the lutz... :scowl:

Regarding 3-toe loop, I think she's very, very close to nailing it. I completely have faith in her that she'll do it soon in competition.

And the lutz... I don't know. I think that with her toe jumps, the basic problem is that she doesn't/didn't have the necessary ankle strength to keep her edges stable. Mao's ankles are very flexible, and she's not muscular so I think it's a question of her finding some kind of way to build her ankle strength. She may get there yet!

(And vice versa---skaters whose ankles are stiff, like Yuna's, for example, are natural toe jumpers because their ankles remain relatively rigid no matter how much pressure you give them, and then, that makes them not great edge jumpers and they will often resort to torquing their spine to do the edge jumps. And this would make Caro, whose jumps are based on neither too stiff nor too flexible ankles, the best technical jumper, except for the fact that her technique failed her more often than not.)

(Actually, though, come to think of it, Caro can only do salchow and loop out of three-turns, so her ankles must actually be on the stiff side.)

 

[mnm464]

Good position in the air, flow in and into the jump, and height/rotation speed are important factors in good tech. Yuzuru Hanyu and Kim Yuna have amazing positioning and tech!