Junior rules and jumps

[kolyadafan2002]

In junior, there is a mandatory loop, flip or Lutz rotating between them each year.

Back when you needed a jump from steps at senior level in a sp, this made sense to me. But now, it's a stupid rule for the following reasons:
1) we see skaters attempting 2F/2Lz/2Lo instead of a triple which they can do.
2) we see skaters throwing themselves into triples they can't do as hail Mary's instead of triples they can do.
3) it encourages people to do jumps for points instead of GOE.
4) it's harder for senior. Why make juniors harder than senior.
5) you get boring programs. Every skater has the same jumping pass and you get carbon copy jumping programs.
6) +Combo. If you make a mistake on the combo you have no alternative. You can't throw another combo anywhere. You're finished and can't make up the points based on one mistake.
7) it doesn't train you to think like a senior with jumping passes especially relating to the combination jump as per 6).

For this reason, I think the rules should be changed to allow the required jump to be a combination, or Abolish this jump rule entirely. It will make short programs less boring in junior, and will teach people to think like senior skaters.
What are your thoughts?

 

[Jeanie19]

I think they should abolish this rule. Juniors are starting out and this rule is harder than seniors have. Plus salchow could be your best jump and you should be able to do it, if you want. And I've noticed the loop is hard for some skaters.

 

[Mathman]

About the objection of producing boring programs with each skater having the exact same jump layout, I believe that this was the original reason for the short program (aka the technical program) in the first place. Every skater would do the exact same elements and the judges would decide who did them best.

This idea has largely been abandoned now at the senior level, with the consequence that short programs are just a shorter version of long programs.I think that this whole topic is what the ISU is looking into with its proposal to have a technical program and an artistic progrsm, instead of a long and a short. I will be curious to see what they comeup with.

 

[lappo]

I think the mandatory jump was chosen as a way to have junior skaters to properly work on all jumps and their techniques...it was a way to have them obtain the full skating vocabulary, so to speak, before entering the senior ranks, including the three hardest jumps. To me, it doesn't seem a bad idea, even though I would love more consistency in the TP calls on the quality of some jumps.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

I think the mandatory jump was chosen as a way to have junior skaters to properly work on all jumps and their techniques...it was a way to have them obtain the full skating vocabulary, so to speak, before entering the senior ranks, including the three hardest jumps. To me, it doesn't seem a bad idea, even though I would love more consistency in the TP calls on the quality of some jumps.

What are your thoughts on allowing the mandatory jump to be executed in combination then?

 

[gkelly]

In junior, there is a mandatory loop, flip or Lutz rotating between them each year.

Back when you needed a jump from steps at senior level in a sp, this made sense to me.

The "jump out of steps" requirement applied to short programs at all levels, not only senior.
The only difference for junior was that the takeoff was specified each year. But there did need to be steps. And also in novice.

I think they should abolish this rule. Juniors are starting out and this rule is harder than seniors have. Plus salchow could be your best jump and you should be able to do it, if you want.

If salchow is your best jump, you could use it in the combination.

I don't have strong feelings about this one way or the other.

As Mathman says, if the ISU does move toward a technical vs. artistic program split, the point may become moot anyway.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

The "jump out of steps" requirement applied to short programs at all levels, not only senior.
The only difference for junior was that the takeoff was specified each year. But there did need to be steps. And also in novice.


If salchow is your best jump, you could use it in the combination.

I don't have strong feelings about this one way or the other.

As Mathman says, if the ISU does move toward a technical vs. artistic program split, the point may become moot anyway.

Just asking, what do you think about allowing the mandatory jump to be executed in combination to avoid +COMBO?

 

[lappo]

What are your thoughts on allowing the mandatory jump to be executed in combination then?

I wouldn't mind, as long as they are well executed. I think the reasoning of putting them as single jumps is that you have an incentive to work on other combinations outside of your favourites or most usual, in order to still have a decent BV at the start. Honestly, the fact that the programs are kinda similar in construction doesn't bother me much since it's not that we see so much variety in the LP either (both at junior and senior levels), which is easily justifiable with the need of keeping the structure similar in order to gain consistency with the increasingly difficult jumps.
Moral of the story, IMO: I don't see a particular need to change the actual rules of the junior programs, unless they go for radical changes such as the creation of the artistic and technical programs (which I'm not really convince on based on what they said about it on paper...let's see). The only thing I would love is for the TP to be more consistent with the calls.

 

[yume]

I think the mandatory jump was chosen as a way to have junior skaters to properly work on all jumps and their techniques...it was a way to have them obtain the full skating vocabulary, so to speak, before entering the senior ranks, including the three hardest jumps. To me, it doesn't seem a bad idea, even though I would love more consistency in the TP calls on the quality of some jumps.

But a skater can be lucky. Top juniors from Japan and Russia usually do two junior seasons. If you are lucky, the mandatory jump during those seasons won't be your weakest one. Flutzing won't be a problem if the mandatory jumps are 3F and 3lo.

Besides, we see that difficulty is relative as a skater like Emmy Ma didn't have a 3T but could do 3F and 3Lz.

 

[lappo]

But a skater can be lucky. Top juniors from Japan and Russia usually do two junior seasons. If you are lucky, the mandatory jump during those seasons won't be your weakest one. Flutzing won't be a problem if the mandatory jumps are 3F and 3lo.

Besides, we see that difficulty is relative as a skater like Emmy Ma didn't have a 3T but could do 3F and 3Lz.

Luck can certainly help you in that you may not have the 3Lz as a solo jump but if you are aiming to the podium you better have it in the combo, otherwise with today competition you will be out of it nonetheless. It would be interesting to see who was the last ladies junior world champion who won without jumping a 3Lz, be it a solo or a combo jump...I wouldn't know how to search for it though.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Luck can certainly help you in that you may not have the 3Lz as a solo jump but if you are aiming to the podium you better have it in the combo, otherwise with today competition you will be out of it nonetheless. It would be interesting to see who was the last ladies junior world champion who won without jumping a 3Lz, be it a solo or a combo jump...I wouldn't know how to search for it though.

My greater concern is that if you miss a combo you have no chance for redemption and this messes up your entire competition if you can't put a combo on the planned jump. My other points still apply.

 

[yume]

Luck can certainly help you in that you may not have the 3Lz as a solo jump but if you are aiming to the podium you better have it in the combo, otherwise with today competition you will be out of it nonetheless. It would be interesting to see who was the last ladies junior world champion who won without jumping a 3Lz, be it a solo or a combo jump...I wouldn't know how to search for it though.

We see skaters score fine with 2A/3lo/3F-3T.

Many win things with flutzes.

 

[lappo]

We see skaters score fine with 2A/3lo/3F-3T.

Many win things with flutzes.

And that's why I emphasized the importance of consistency from the TP, even though I know we will get none of it.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

And that's why I emphasized the importance of consistency from the TP, even though I know we will get none of it.

Some people have a natural tendancy to flutz or lip. One year of requirement of this jump in a junior sp for a season that will last only a few years will not change this. These jumps take years of work to change anything usually once they are in your body.