Lambiel announces retirement

[museksk8r]

But can you argue that the technical content of both of Jeffrey Buttle's programs at 2008 Worlds was among the most difficult we've seen? The programs were excellent, and well presented, and Buttle was a deserving winner. But his winning margin was mostly from spins and GOEs, not because he did the most difficult jumps or combos possible (e.g. 4-3, 3-3-3). Also, he skated two clean progams, which is sadly becoming a rarity. But was the jump content stronger than in Stephane Lambiel's winning LP from 2006 Worlds? Strangely, Stephane's spins there were mostly level 3s with one level 2 - must have been some CoP thing.

You're still missing the point. Spins and footwork count as difficult technical elements and should be awarded accordingly when performed well and to their highest levels, as Jeff and Stephane are capable of doing. Also, unlike Brian Joubert, Jeff and Stephane skate without rounding their shoulders and hunching their back. Maintaining excellent posture, flow, and dance-like ability on the ice is also difficult. Jeff and Stephane also have good speed, skating skills, and superior choreography. "Technical difficulties" do not include just jumps, as Brian Joubert would have you believe. Jeff at '08 Worlds was as close to perfect as he was capable of. Stephane's jump content was more difficult in the '06 Worlds LP because there he achieved the best technically of what Brian (quads and triples) and Jeff (triples, footwork, and spins) are capable of offering. His jumps were 3Axel, 4toe+3toe, 3turns into 3loop(2-footed), 2Axel,-post 2 minute mark-, 4toe, 3flip+3toe, 3Lutz+2toe, 3Salchow. All of his jumps were landed cleanly with full rotation and correct edges, aside from that two-foot on the loop. Still, he got credit for rotating 2 quads and 7 triples.

As far as the levels go, the judges became more generous with awarding Level 4 elements after the 2006 season. A Level 4 element was more of a rarity under the system's rules back in 2006. Few skaters by my memory were doing level 4 elements at that time since COP was still relatively new. That level was seen more during the 2007 season. With the new Olympic cycle among us, a level 4 became common particularly with footwork sequences performed by Daisuke Takahashi and Davis/White and spiral sequences and spins performed by Alissa Czisny, Yu-Na Kim, and Mao Asada in the 2006-2007 season.

 

[nylynnr]

This thread has kind of turned in to a Joubert/Buttle jump discussion, which probably doesn't make moderators happy, but I'll contribute to it by adding I don't think Joubert ever questioned the validity of the results in '08. After all he fell flat on his butt in the short. Even without that silly penalty from Bianchetti he was behind the eight ball to start with.

What he did question was the value assigned to quad jumps. He thought quads should be worth more to start with AND that skaters should get a bonus of some sort for trying the quad. He said IJS did not reward skaters who tried the hardest element.

Before the event he said at a press conference, unprompted, that the title was between himself, Lambiel and Takahashi. That remark caused consternation from Czech reporters. After the event a reporter asked him what he had to say about the result now that Buttle won. He was a bit embarassed and insisted he could only answer in French as his English wasn't up to it. The translator then told the room at large that Joubert said he was obviously mistaken and he would not underestimate Buttle in the future.

For what it's worth, which is not much, ITA with Joubert about quads. Also IMO the changes to IJS over the summer were made with Joubert in mind. The quad is worth more for those who can land it properly. Judges are no longer required to deduct for an edge change if its "at the last minute and only a bit." That helps guys with wrong edge flips, girls with wrong edge Lutzes not so much.

 

[Buttercup]

I did not compare Buttle and Joubert; I compared Buttle and Stephane Lambiel, who is the subject of this thread. I have never suggested that Jeffrey Buttle did not skate two superb programs at Worlds, just that the elements in them were not the hardest we have ever seen. I agree Lambiel and Buttle both performed great step sequences and spins. However, it seems to me that getting high levels on these are to some degree a function of following the rules to the letter (Brian Joubert, by no means a great spinner, has gotten high levels on more than one occasion). Meanwhile, it seems as though fewer skaters can pull off the harder jump elements. If I'm not mistaken, only two guys attempted quad-triple combos at Worlds, and only one landed his cleanly. Very few skaters did quads in the short. That's a shame.

Skating, as we can all agree, is more than just jumps, but it is also more than just spins or presentation. Stephane Lambiel was one of the few very special skaters who could combine all these things (except land a triple axel the last couple of years ), and he'll be missed.

O/T Ant, I want to address your comparison of the jumps from the 2008 LP. First, thanks for taking the time to post it; I'm usually too lazy to actually type these in full . Second, IIRC, the base values were pretty much a wash and Buttle pulled ahead on GOEs. Assuming that's true, I believe he won on superior execution (and I think maxing out spin levels is more about execution) and not on superior difficulty. This takes nothing away from what he achieved last season.

 

[Mathman]

As far as the levels go, the judges became more generous with awarding Level 4 elements after the 2006 season. A Level 4 element was more of a rarity under the system's rules back in 2006.

That is a very interesting point. What I think happened is that when the IJS was new, the levels and the GOEs were somewhat blurred together. A "level four" spin or step sequence meant a a really, really outstanding one.

Over the last couple of seasons the requirements for levels have been "clarified,"so that a skater can achieve a high level just by completing a check list of "features."

To make this work, judges will have to wield the power of the GOEs more aggressively -- more very high and very low marks -- to make sure that quantity alone doesn't automatically win the day.

... which probably doesn't make moderators happy...

Speaking for myself, the moderators like threads like this very much. A vigorous discussion with interesting opinions put forward, backed up by well reasoned argument and appeal to facts.

Also IMO the changes to IJS over the summer were made with Joubert in mind.

I think there was quite a lot of grumbing by current and former skaters about the relatively low value of the quad. The future will tell which of the top men will be best able to take advantage of the new base marks. Most of the guys in the mix "have a quad" (sort of ).

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I don't think Lambiel's retirement announcement had too much to do with disappointment in New Jersey. Galina did not pick out his music and for the most part did not do the choreography. The tango certainly doesn't look like anything Weir or a "Soviet" skater would do. Plus, Lambiel was only there for about five weeks in the beginning of the summer, then back again for maybe a week or two at the end of September -- beginning of October, before abruptly announcing his retirement. I also don't think a petite lady could withhold food from a 23-year-old man with his own car and money, and Stephane enjoyed living with Nina and Viktor, going to the ballet with them, etc.

More to the point was that he was having big problems with his jumps, and his injury also troubled him with several of his spins. IMO he got tired of fighting the pain and lacked the motivation to push through. He's been around a long time so that's understandable.

This isn't the first time Lambiel has called an abrupt press conference and withdrawn from competition, and his move to Galina was not the first time he left Grutter. Again, just my opinion, but I think we will see him return.

There is much above based on opinion and nothing else which we didn't already know, but it's nice to read that we will see him return.

 

[antmanb]

O/T Ant, I want to address your comparison of the jumps from the 2008 LP. First, thanks for taking the time to post it; I'm usually too lazy to actually type these in full . Second, IIRC, the base values were pretty much a wash and Buttle pulled ahead on GOEs. Assuming that's true, I believe he won on superior execution (and I think maxing out spin levels is more about execution) and not on superior difficulty. This takes nothing away from what he achieved last season.

I just went back to the protocols again and saw that in total for technical Base Mark Jeff had 74.93 to Brian's 68.39.

On the jumps alone for base mark (exlcuding the GOEs but including second half bonus) Jeff had base mark of 56.23 with GOEs of 6.01.

Jumps alone for Brian (excluding GOEs but including second half bonus) was 53.89 with GOEs of 3.01.

I think for Brian it was a combination of lower base mark and wrong edge calls on his flip (which he did two of rather than repeating the lutz instead) he had GOE of 4.87 on the other jumps and it was the edge calls on his flip that brought them down. If he could learn the proper take off then given the other qualities on his flip it would be a jump that always gives him high GOEs.

I think worlds was a genuine case of not doing enough technically and simply getting the wrong edge calls.

Ant

 

[Buttercup]

Ant - I did mean base value for jumps, I was sure that was in the post. So they were about two and a half points apart on that (with or without the edge calls?). The GOE gap is larger, and of course the spin levels and the difference carried over from the SP. Weren't there some other skaters with around a 74 base value? I think KvdP, maybe?

It looked to me as though last season was the first time wrong edge calls were really given more often to skaters - certainly with the lip. I imagine we'll see skaters and coaches adjust this year, either by fixing it or by changing the jump content in the programs.

Over the last couple of seasons the requirements for levels have been "clarified,"so that a skater can achieve a high level just by completing a check list of "features."

To make this work, judges will have to wield the power of the GOEs more aggressively -- more very high and very low marks -- to make sure that quantity alone doesn't automatically win the day.

On the whole, I agree, but what would be a good reason for a really negative GOE on a spin or on steps? "Boring" or "uninspired" probably wouldn't be sufficient cause...

 

[Tonichelle]

This thread has kind of turned in to a Joubert/Buttle jump discussion, which probably doesn't make moderators happy...

threads, like face to face conversation change shape and evolve. It's a natural way of communication, I can only speak for myself, but I don't think those of us on the mod squad lose sleep when discussion is had.

 

[vlaurend]

There you have it in a nutshell! That the CoP still needs more work is putting it mildly! And the risk of injury to meet it's demands is the most scary of all.

If we were still on 6.0, the complaint would be that all of the focus was on landing the quads and quad-triples and that was putting skaters at too much risk of injury. The proposed solution would be to give more points for difficult spins and footwork. . .

 

[merrybari]

If we were still on 6.0, the complaint would be that all of the focus was on landing the quads and quad-triples and that was putting skaters at too much risk of injury. The proposed solution would be to give more points for difficult spins and footwork. . .

I'm not sure the 6.0 would have done as you suggest, but I most certainly agree it would help - a lot - if the points were increased for difficult spins and footwork instead of, as I see it, relying on the CPS and GOEs to reward them at a higher level.

 

[Buttercup]

If we were still on 6.0, the complaint would be that all of the focus was on landing the quads and quad-triples and that was putting skaters at too much risk of injury. The proposed solution would be to give more points for difficult spins and footwork...

Well, certainly jumps are hardly beneficial to anyone's knees and ankles, and we know Yagudin retired because his hip problems made some jumps impossible . My concern is that some of the high-level spin positions and some of the pairs lifts and ice dance elements might put additional stress on the skater's bodies that they did not have to deal with before, and also that some skaters may be going for jump elements that are somewhat iffy for them. In addition, I wonder what the effect is of skaters having no time to catch their breath during their programs. Even with superb conditioning, it seems pretty hard.

As far as the levels go, the judges became more generous with awarding Level 4 elements after the 2006 season. A Level 4 element was more of a rarity under the system's rules back in 2006. Few skaters by my memory were doing level 4 elements at that time since COP was still relatively new.

O/T Isn't that more true for 2005? I had some free time and looked at the scoring from 2006 Worlds. Stephane Lambiel had no level 4 spins in the SP or the LP, and overall they were probably less common than the past two seasons. But several skaters did get a level 4 on one spin or more, including Sandhu, Lysacek, Weir, Buttle, Verner, Klimkin, Oda, Preaubert, and Joubert. So I still wonder why Lambiel didn't rate at least one level 4 in Calgary.

 

[merrybari]

I agree about the spins - especially with the more recent emphasis on edge changes - putting more pressure on skaters - generally the hips, which tend to take a hit with jumps a bit too. It's a wonder any of them can even walk after they retire. Not surprising that the physical stress on the body can influence "early" retirements.

Sad, but not surprising.

 

[antmanb]

Ant - I did mean base value for jumps, I was sure that was in the post. So they were about two and a half points apart on that (with or without the edge calls?). The GOE gap is larger, and of course the spin levels and the difference carried over from the SP. Weren't there some other skaters with around a 74 base value? I think KvdP, maybe?

Actually looking back at the protocols Joubert was pretty lucky to be where he was and actually the only reason he ended up with the silver was because of his ridiculously inflated PCS - to highlight the issue - Buttle (who surely no-one is in any doubt should have higher the PCS) came out with 78.78 and Joubert had 79.36. That IMO is laughable scoring by the judges. Listing the skaters in terms of their Base Mark for the tech elements only (not including GOEs but including second half bonuses) the order was this (number in brackets is the position in they got in the LP):

1. Buttle (1) 74.93
2. Van Der Perren(3) 74.48
3. Kozuka (8) 73.42
4. Abbott (10) 72.28
5. Voronov (4) 70.96
6. Shutlheiss (13) 70.80
7. Urbas (14) 68.57
8. Ponsero (18) 68.47
9. Joubert (2) 68.39
10. Weir (5) 67.28
11. Lambiel (7) 67.26
12. Nanri (17) 66.36
13. Berntsson (15) 66.26
14. Zelenka (16) 65.60
15. Takahashi (6) 65.20
16. Carriere (9) 64.48

So there were six skaters who broke the 70 mark in the technical elements. I found it very interesting that i had to go through all of the protocol and was still picking out names with high technical base mark as far down as 13th.

On the whole, I agree, but what would be a good reason for a really negative GOE on a spin or on steps? "Boring" or "uninspired" probably wouldn't be sufficient cause...

I'm sure there are guidelines on the ISU site but i'm fairly sure that for spins - not holding the spin for the requisite number of rotations gets hammered in the GOE as does travelling and re-centering of the spin. Not sure what the footwork -GOE bullets are.

O/T Isn't that more true for 2005? I had some free time and looked at the scoring from 2006 Worlds. Stephane Lambiel had no level 4 spins in the SP or the LP, and overall they were probably less common than the past two seasons. But several skaters did get a level 4 on one spin or more, including Sandhu, Lysacek, Weir, Buttle, Verner, Klimkin, Oda, Preaubert, and Joubert. So I still wonder why Lambiel didn't rate at least one level 4 in Calgary.

Wasn't that the year that Lambiel was rebelling against the system and refusing to give up on his artisitc integrity? From memory Lambiel found that the level four spins took away from the blinding speed of his spins so refused to do level 4 spins. I think the year after he compromised and did two level 4 spins that were notably slower that his two level 3 spins.

Ant

 

[Buttercup]

Wasn't that the year that Lambiel was rebelling against the system and refusing to give up on his artisitc integrity? From memory Lambiel found that the level four spins took away from the blinding speed of his spins so refused to do level 4 spins. I think the year after he compromised and did two level 4 spins that were notably slower that his two level 3 spins.

So a skater can either rebel on the ice and lose points, or comment about the system off the ice and open himself/herself to criticism? That's too bad. I really liked watching Stephane spin himself into a blur and it's a pity the system does not reward a spin's speed as well as edge changes and the like (it's not rewarded enough even in GOEs).

3. Kozuka (8) 73.42
4. Abbott (10) 72.28

Those two might have been too ambitious with their programs - they had high base marks but the negative GOEs brought the score down several points. BTW, this got me curious as to how bad Verner was - turns out he had the lowest base value of any skater in the LP by seven points, and even lower with the GOEs. Ouch. I really hope to never see anything like that from him again.

Buttle (who surely no-one is in any doubt should have higher the PCS) came out with 78.78 and Joubert had 79.36. That IMO is laughable scoring by the judges.

Well, Joubert was slightly ahead on skating skills, and I don't think that should pose a problem for anyone; his skating skills are very good. He was also ahead on performance and execution, which strikes me as a matter of personal taste. Buttle was slightly ahead on transitions - his were indeed better - and they were pretty much identical on choreography and interpretation, which I also view as subjective, especially the latter - for instance, some people here think Brian is too showy and not graceful, while other posters find Jeffrey's skating subtle to the point of dullness. Despite the attempt to quantify the program components, I'm not sure it's really there yet in terms of reliability.

 

[antmanb]

So a skater can either rebel on the ice and lose points, or comment about the system off the ice and open himself/herself to criticism? That's too bad. I really liked watching Stephane spin himself into a blur and it's a pity the system does not reward a spin's speed as well as edge changes and the like (it's not rewarded enough even in GOEs).

It is extremely sad as i thought the ethos of COP was going to be that doing simple things well (ie with high +GOEs) would have scored more highly than high levels done with 0 or -GOEs. I think gkelly's proposals for reform are very good and ones that the ISU should adopt - i'm sure gkelly can chime in with what they were but from memory the premise was that e.g. a level 2 spin done with +GOES (depending on how high) should gain the same points as a level 3 spin with 0GOE or a level 4 with -GOES.

Well, Joubert was slightly ahead on skating skills, and I don't think that should pose a problem for anyone; his skating skills are very good. He was also ahead on performance and execution, which strikes me as a matter of personal taste. Buttle was slightly ahead on transitions - his were indeed better - and they were pretty much identical on choreography and interpretation, which I also view as subjective, especially the latter - for instance, some people here think Brian is too showy and not graceful, while other posters find Jeffrey's skating subtle to the point of dullness. Despite the attempt to quantify the program components, I'm not sure it's really there yet in terms of reliability.

Yes i suppose that all of the PCS are fairly subjective and open to people's personal tastes but for my taste Brian skates along to his music rather really in or with the music like Buttle, which for me would mean giving Buttle higher marks on interpretation, execution and choreography (Joubert IMO has a lot of cross overs and breaks in choreography to set up the jumps). I think the skating skills are fairly evenly matched in terms of edge use. The only thing i can't comment on is speed as i have never seen them live. Especially based on the two performances i was very surprised that Brian came out on top with the PCS, but i guess since they're so subjective they can be argued either way. My gut feeling is that the judges knew that Joubert had not done enough technically and therefore to keep him in second they had to bolster his PCS.

Ant

 

[Mathman]

I think Joubert deserved his high marks for performance/execution. He gave a crowd pleasing "ta-da!" type of performance, which is part of what the judges are looking for in this category, I think.

Buttercup's comment that Buttle's smooth elegance might be too subtle for the tastes of some viewers (or judges) is on point, in my opinion.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

We are now back to Buttle v. Joubert and to hades with Lambiel. It happens to be a very good discussion, and if one wants to refer to it, he will have to look it up under Lambiel. Too bad because there is a Joubert thread.

Skating Skills are not quantifiable as is the entire PCS scores. They are all personal opinions of each judge motivated by individual taste or favoritism and nationalities and maybe skullduggery. Judges are human beings and they will err in their judgements as much as judges in any other pagaent does.

The question posed: Whom do you think skated to your liking the most? Buttle or Joubert.

The Roar of The Crowd if that is the defining moment went to both skaters.

The camera went on Joubert's face when Buttle finished his performance with the crowd on their feet. He was puzzled.

 

[Medusa]

Article in French

I am right now too lazy to translate. But it's a great article and I just love that picture.

Among other things he talks about shows and complaints that many shows are just a succession of performances of one old champion after another. He would prefer a spectacle, that tells a story, that shows the true value of figure skating.

«Ces galas ressemblent trop souvent à une suite de numéros d’anciens champions. Moi, je rêve d’un vrai spectacle, avec une histoire qui mette le patinage en valeur. Mais peut-être qu’il faut pour cela monter sa propre troupe. Je n’ai pas encore les épaules, mais ça m’intéresse…»

Imagine an international cast, handpicked by Lambiel, realising great artistic ideas...

 

[museksk8r]

Article in French

I am right now too lazy to translate. But it's a great article and I just love that picture.

Among other things he talks about shows and complaints that many shows are just a succession of performances of one old champion after another. He would prefer a spectacle, that tells a story, that shows the true value of figure skating.
Imagine an international cast, handpicked by Lambiel, realising great artistic ideas...

I love that idea! I could totally see Stephane being one to want to start up a spectacular skating musical with elaborate, colorful set designs and costumes telling a story set to music. He was always so creative with his programs and was never boring, often changing his competitive programs midway through the season simply because he grew tired of a program. He's a dreamer and has always stressed his passion for all aspects of skating, both technical and artistic, emphasizing the performance and trying to create something different, dynamic and magical. He is truly special!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Article in French

I am right now too lazy to translate. But it's a great article and I just love that picture.

Among other things he talks about shows and complaints that many shows are just a succession of performances of one old champion after another. He would prefer a spectacle, that tells a story, that shows the true value of figure skating.
Imagine an international cast, handpicked by Lambiel, realising great artistic ideas...

I think what he meant was a serious ice skating revue as what John Curry put on back in the 80s? It was not unlike NYC Ballet Company which features all the skaters in one evening and not just two stars all night long. COI skaters, unfortunately, were skating for the costs of next seasons coaching and choreographing. SOI had production numbers which were more interesting.

If his troupe were to play Madison Square Garden, could it last a week? The Hollywood Ice Revue lasted at least 3 weeks but then there was Sonia Henie.

It could, imo, play for profit in Europe, so Lambiel might be able to accomplish this if he got the financial backing.