Men neglected in figure skating?

[minze]

For the zillionth time, "De gustibus non est disputandum." (I'll jump in and say it on behalf of WA. )

You are making nothing more than an assumption that everyone shares your opinion re Trankov.

Many males from the Men's discipline are attractive. Same for Ice Dance. Same for Pairs.



Huh? I never said or implied that you dismissed anyone. And who said that this subject is sensitive for me???
Please stop putting words in my mouth.
I said that you confused me -- nothing more, nothing less -- b/c your OP made all kinds of mentions about fame, attention, and recognition, but then you subsequently claimed to be talking only about federation support.




Time for me to leave this thread ... b/c for some reason you seem to be sensitive to my participation. :confused2:

Not at all. If Any of my comments made you feel that way. Sorry, not my intention. And I am talking about both fame and Federation support.

In my opinion, they both go toghether a Federation can help a skater who is winning become more visible.
Apology about any confusion. Just making a point. I hope you dont stop commenting on the thread

 

[Alex D]

And women's figure skating has always been more popular than mens, lots of guys watch it just for the pretty girls in little dresses. Very few of them appreciate the athleticism that goes into figure skating. Even the weeks leading up to Sochi I saw more Gracie than Davis/White even though they were basically a lock for gold.

I have to disagree strongly.

Whenever I go to a FS event, the men are in a huge minority. I didn't count it but I would assume we talk about 1 / 100.

Men also seldom skate in front of empty rows, the girls however often do so especially those in the first groups.

Just look at Joubert or Plushenko, show me a lady that is as popular at the opposite gender as those are.

Sure there are some Asian skaters who have a couple of male fans, I met several but its nothing compared to the amount of ladies that these two womanziers can get.

Sad but true is, that not many men watch FS and if you now attack those that do and claim they only watch it due short skirts and skin then I don't know how we will ever get more men into FS as long that prejudice exists.

I never saw anything like this in soccer, its totally normal for a girl to watch soccer and I wish we would some day reach the same in FS or Gymnastics.


Don't let a whole gender pay for the wrongs of a small amount of those who belong to it.

 

[StitchMonkey]

While I do hate the Men's Figure Skating=Gay Association, there is absolutely nothing irrational(in fact, I think it would be the norm) for women to prefer pairs and ice dancing over men's figure skating. Pair's and Ice Dancing consistently emphasize passion and romance while men's figure skating is often self absorbed or very hit and miss in what it emphasizes and appeals with... heck, I was reading an interview with Eteri Tutberidze and she talked about how many asian male skaters skated femininely and how she wanted her male students to emulate.

Also, women are hardwired to like tall men... I'm 5'9" 1/2 and the average height for white male figure skaters is probably 5'9"... with the asian skaters significantly shorter. Go on match.com and look at women's minimum height requirements... a majority of those that list a height put at at least at 5'10 and probably a third of women list 6" as a minimum height. The majority of men in ice dancing and pairs are in women's ideal height range... they need to be strong to do the elements and it's also needed for aesthetic reasons to make the passion and romance undertones work.

Show me any elite male singles skater that comes close to Maxim Trankov when it comes to what the majority of women find attractive? Oh yeah, you can't say Evan Lysacek who is 6''2".

Do you think a man by himself could come even close to capturing a women's imagination as this:

Art on Ice 2014 Tatiana Volosozhar & Maxim Trankov with Hurts - Somebody to Die For
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBzQq-TdnW0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTxhUOxTCMU

Your point on height is an interesting one and likely more of a factor than some give credit. Some women are a bit weird about height (I don't really get it, I mean I get attraction, but not the whole caring about it the same as a personality trait).

However not all women like romance and assuming women will is still furthering the gender stereotyping. I am not into romance at all. I am too practical to find most romance stories enjoyable. I don't find Romeo and Juliet romantic at all, i can't really even see it as a love story because to me they did not know each other long enough to love one another - its and infatuation story. Maybe that is why I don't get as into dance and pairs.

I find men's less contrived than ladies at this point. At least there is some room for variations on themes in mens. Women you have about 85% prim and proper, 10% "athletic" 5% ignored because no one knows how to label them.

As for attractive male skaters. . . have we all so soon forgotten about Philippe Candeloro? I seem to recall he capturing a few looks of the ladies back in the day.

I recall some gusshing for Ilia Kulik as well.

Max Aaron has already been mentioned, who I would say is rather classically attractive.

 

[satine]

Say what?? I am female, love watching men's singles and think plenty of male single skaters are attractive (too many, perhaps!). Daisuke Takahashi is 5'5, but he has legions of female admirers. Javier Fernandez is 5'9 and he's extremely hot too!

I like watching pairs, but ice dance mostly puts me to sleep. And when I watch those disciplines, I don't favor the cheesy romantic programs at all. I like drama, I like powerful skating. And I'm sure I'm not alone (see the "why I love men's skating" thread). So these stereotypes are bizarre to me.

With the exception of preferring Pairs to Dance, this could have been written by me! :thumbsup:

 

[NaVi]

I think sexy/sweet/smart boys next door type attracts lots of girls, it is one type, the teen-pop type. and figure skating is a youthful sports.
And I do know that women are drooling over for example Patrick's chest or Javi's guns, and of course Yuzuru-- the ultimate anime on ice, they aren't tall guys.

Yes, some girls do like these type of guys but males singles skating is harder to pull off with a body type that is in our society's masculine ideal. This is not good if you want to appeal to women as a broad group.

I like watching pairs, but ice dance mostly puts me to sleep. And when I watch those disciplines, I don't favor the cheesy romantic programs at all. I like drama, I like powerful skating. And I'm sure I'm not alone (see the "why I love men's skating" thread). So these stereotypes are bizarre to me.

I actually agree with you... I think bad ice dancing is harder to watch than bad men's singles.

My issue with this thread so to speak is that I completely disagree with the title... if you watch NBC's coverage men and women are treated equally while pairs and ice dancing are ignored. I think this is completely absurd and if you want to maximize skating's appeal you would edit the ladies coverage as a contentious sporting event and just show highlights of men, pairs, and ice dancing.

You are making nothing more than an assumption that everyone shares your opinion re Trankov.

No, I'm making the assumption that women prefer taller guys which is backed up by every dating survey in existence.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Certainly in the US the marketing key athlete has been the female singles skater. Add to that while very nice people TOdd Eldridge, Paul Wylie and Evan were rather "bland" for lack of words. Johnny Weir has been popular and to a point Rudi Galindo but they, according to marking stas have a different market which already were fans (females) or the gay population if you believe or accept some of the marking reports. I am not sure if Brown really would bring in a lot of new viewers; he does not have that more traditoinal male look about his skating like Elvis or even Candelero.

Brown is likeable and non-threatening. Even if not a sex symbol, there are other areas of appeal. Jason is not bland and also very inoffensive and energetic. That is what can help him to reach other audiences, his likeable normalness. Johnny Weir is charming,b but I don't think he wants to be mainstream popular. I don't think he would ever want to get comfortable enough to be mainstream, he wants to be a bit on the edge, he enjoys it and thrives there.

 

[StitchMonkey]

To piggyback on the "men's figure skating = gay" association that a lot of people have (and the greater societal problem of many people immediately thinking "gay = bad"), look at TSL's interview with Elvis Stojko. When he was talking about how he thought the sport should embrace different types of artistry rather than viewing only one presentation style -- balletic/lyrical -- as being "correct," he referred to that type of skating as "feminine." I understood that he was trying to say that he felt that someone could still be artistic without being lyrical and wanted the judges to recognize that more, but it still made me cringe that he referred to Johnny Weir's skating style as feminine.

It is even more disappointing the word choice he used because he had a really good point, if you can follow him long enough to find it. I agree that different types of people will relate and connect to different skaters. I can also understand his point of view that sometimes you can't fully connect to something you can't do/understand the same as something closer to home. His point really did seem to be we need a variety, he could have worded it better. (though he did kinda contradict himself with the "I can't move like that" vs "Quads are the hardest, you can just practice and train your way to the other stuff")

 

[yyyskate]

Male spectators may be the quietest in the rink but they are the most generous in terms of buying figure skating products and support their loved ones, once they are hooked. It is a silent sometime even invisible but powerfull market.

 

[Alex D]

Male spectators may be the quietest in the rink but they are the most generous in terms of buying figure skating products and support their loved ones, once they are hooked. It is a silent sometime even invisible but powerfull market.

I was screaming during Ondreys and Stefanias Dirty Dancing program... I am so un-male like haha

 

[Interspectator]

There was a Tv clip aired this week that asked 100 people on the street which athelete was the most memorable, and Yuzuru came in first place and Mao 4th.
If Mao was competing this year she would be higher in the rankings, but this shows that at least in Japan, men's figure skating is very appreciated.
Not to mention they get more coverage this season because the Male team is stronger than the Female team this year.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2azghl_1125-記憶に残るアスリート_sport

Someone mentioned Daisuke earlier and it was really his break through at the Olympics and World Championships that got people to sit up and notice figure skating was a Men's sport too in Japan. He said that when he started out at nationals, there would be 6000 seats in the stadium and they'd only be half filled, but now at nationals stadiums of over 10000 seats are completely filled. Japan was blessed with a procession of very strong male skaters. Honda Takeshi being the first one I noticed -Daisuke - Oda - Kozuka - Machida - and now Hanyu. Up coming and already getting lots of attention from the media is Shoma. Go Male figure skaters!

Japanese also are very appreciative of foreign male figure skaters. Plushenko is the most well known. He goes on Japanese TV shows all the time. Other favorites are Jeremy Abbott, Fernandez, Kevin Reynolds, Tomas Verner, Phillipe Candeloro, and more.
What about other Asian countries? Anyone have first-hand experience?

 

[cheerknithanson]

While I do hate the Men's Figure Skating=Gay Association, there is absolutely nothing irrational(in fact, I think it would be the norm) for women to prefer pairs and ice dancing over men's figure skating. Pair's and Ice Dancing consistently emphasize passion and romance while men's figure skating is often self absorbed or very hit and miss in what it emphasizes and appeals with... heck, I was reading an interview with Eteri Tutberidze and she talked about how many asian male skaters skated femininely and how she wanted her male students to emulate.

Also, women are hardwired to like tall men... I'm 5'9" 1/2 and the average height for white male figure skaters is probably 5'9"... with the asian skaters significantly shorter. Go on match.com and look at women's minimum height requirements... a majority of those that list a height put at at least at 5'10 and probably a third of women list 6" as a minimum height. The majority of men in ice dancing and pairs are in women's ideal height range... they need to be strong to do the elements and it's also needed for aesthetic reasons to make the passion and romance undertones work.

Show me any elite male singles skater that comes close to Maxim Trankov when it comes to what the majority of women find attractive? Oh yeah, you can't say Evan Lysacek who is 6''2".

Do you think a man by himself could come even close to capturing a women's imagination as this:

Art on Ice 2014 Tatiana Volosozhar & Maxim Trankov with Hurts - Somebody to Die For
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBzQq-TdnW0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTxhUOxTCMU

I'm one of those weirdos who like guys under 6 feet. I don't want a guy to tower a lot over me. I'm actually attracted to guys on the shorter side. Like even ones that are SUPER close to my height and I'm 5'4 1/2.

And though I love being in a team sport, I like to focus on one thing when I'm watching figure skating.

I don't understand why women like tall guys? BESIDES for protection. I know I don't want a guy to tower over me too much. Cause I want to feel on level.

 

[silverfoxes]

Yes, some girls do like these type of guys but males singles skating is harder to pull off with a body type that is in our society's masculine ideal. This is not good if you want to appeal to women as a broad group.

And yet, most fans of male figure skaters are women...do you ever check out the fan fest threads here?

There are plenty of other sports which favor other body types, if that's all someone cares about. I hope it isn't. Although I think there is actually quite a range among the male skaters, from very slim to more built, or even borderline stocky (like Stojko or Patrick Myzyk). Something for everyone's taste.

 

[Sandpiper]

I think it's an America-centric view. Yuzuru is beloved in Asia. Plushenko, despite barely competing, can beat hockey players and football players in Russian polls. Patrick receives tons more attention than our Canadian ladies--and rightfully so.

The US are traditionally stronger in ladies, so of course that's the discipline most people gravitate to. It's a cycle that feeds upon itself: US produces ladies champions, discipline gets popular, US cherishes/puts money into the discipline and produces more champions... The problem is somewhere down the line, the champions stopped happening, but the people at the top haven't figured out another way to promote the sport.

Of course Eldredge isn't going to get much attention compared to Michelle Kwan--he has neither her results nor her star power. The US had people like Hamilton and Boitano, who certainly weren't ignored. As for Lysacek, well... I think he, too, lacked the presence and the x-factor. Jason Brown does have those qualities; if he gets quad, consistency, and gold medals going, and the US still ignores men's singles, then we can complain about neglect.

Btw, there is much more to what women like in men outside of being "tall and handsome." Or else Evan Lysacek would be the most popular male skater in the world. I'd watch "short" Dai, "not classically masculine" Yuzuru, and "not classically handsome" Plushy over Evan any day.

P.S. Count me in as another weirdo who likes short guys. But... it doesn't really matter to me when it's skaters. There are plenty of skaters whose looks I'm not attracted to--but I'm attracted to their skating.

 

[itoja]

^ THIS
What's being tall has even to do with being attractive skater? I have no idea how tall they are when watching them skating.

Do you think a man by himself could come even close to capturing a women's imagination as this:

Art on Ice 2014 Tatiana Volosozhar & Maxim Trankov with Hurts - Somebody to Die For
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBzQq-TdnW0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTxhUOxTCMU

Nice, but it doesn't capture my imagination at all. And this does:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUWvc_yDRUM

 

[Interspectator]

Actually, to my shame, my first reaction to seeing Yuzuru was "he looks like a girl!" and nearly stopped watching. But my sister said "Just watch this!" so I did. It was the 2012 World Championship LP. Then, I watched Daisuke. I was hooked and lived happily every after.

 

[NaVi]

And yet, most fans of male figure skaters are women...do you ever check out the fan fest threads here?

That's all fine and dandy, but some people will drone on about skating's reduced popularity and then try to make your argument. The issue is not who is populating the self selected fan threads but who is actually watching skating and how do you get more people to watch.

1. I think the majority of the people who watch skating are women.
2. I think the majority of the people who watch skating just stumble upon it on tv.
3. I think ladies skating is what those casual watchers most want to watch
4. I don't think those casual women viewers really care to sit through and watch a whole hour of men's competition.
5. It would be better to just show the highlights of men... and pairs... and ice dancing.

 

[Mrs. P]

FWIW: The author of this piece: http://deadspin.com/your-guide-to-jason-brown-the-skater-you-cant-help-bu-1522244096

is male.


And if you click on his articles: http://tom_ley.kinja.com/

He typically writes about basketball.

Well then how the hell is he going to become a household name if he can't even do a damn quad?

By being really, really awesome at everything else a figure skater does. Watching the biggest names in the sport go flying through the air and sticking quadruple toe loops is great, but there are other ways to put on a visually stunning program, and nobody understands that better than Brown. If the other skaters in the Olympics are the power pitchers of the sport, then consider Jason Brown the R.A. Dickey of figure skating. The other guys dominate with physical strength, but Brown dips and dances through his programs in a way that is just as impressive.

Which brings us to the 2014 U.S. Figure Skating

R.A. Dickey is a pitcher for the Toronto Blue Jays. I guess his story was that he wasn't seeing success with traditional pitches so he started doing knuckleball pitches, i.e. he found another way to success. So basically he's praising Jason for finding other ways to succeed in the sport.

Deadspin is a really popular sports publication -- reaching millions of people every month. If USFS could learn how to get skaters more into these publications it would help.

 

[Interspectator]

Mrs. P, who won most GP medals so far this year for the USA? Men or Women?

 

[Mrs. P]

Mrs. P, who won most GP medals so far this year for the USA? Men or Women?

I think we're even

Skate America - Jason Brown (silver), Gracie Gold (bronze)
Skate Canada - Max Aaron (bronze), Ashley Wagner (silver)
Cup of China - Richard Dornbush (bronze)
Rostelecom Cup - neither (best finish: Jason Brown, 5th; Mirai Nagasu, 4th)
Trophee Eric Bompard - no men (best finish: Adam Rippon, 5th) Ashley Wagner (bronze)
NHK - ????

We're 3 for men, 3 for women. Though more men (3) have won more medals than women (2).


However, both are outranked by Ice Dance who have had three different pairs win a medal (2 at SkAm) during every event of the GP series. That streak is likely to end at NHK though, unless Baker/Hawayek show considerable improvement from their first event (they were in 8th).

 

[NaVi]

FWIW: The author of this piece: http://deadspin.com/your-guide-to-jason-brown-the-skater-you-cant-help-bu-1522244096

is male.


And if you click on his articles: http://tom_ley.kinja.com/

He typically writes about basketball.

He works for Gawker... he writes clickbaity articles that are meant to drive traffic. Yeah he was writing about Jason Brown, but for the Olympics.

Deadspin is a really popular sports publication -- reaching millions of people every month. If USFS could learn how to get skaters more into these publications it would help.

One thing that's very noticeably different between Russia and the United States is that Russian sports outlets actually cover figure skating as a sport and as it's own thing separate from the Olympics.

And as someone who is new to figure skating fandom, I like to compare skating to other sports that I watch... especially MMA. What I find amazing about figure skating compared to MMA is that there is very little figure skating journalism in comparison to MMA.

I wouldn't worry about Gawker's Deadspin so much... but why is there no figure skating equivalent to mmamania.com or bloodyelbow.com? Why is figure skating coverage on bleacherreport lumped in with the Olympics?