Men's Free

[Medusa]

Before, it was clear who the winner was because of the overall quality of the performance, falls or no falls, and not because of technical calls based on instant replays which the audience can't see. If a person fell on a jump it was a total loss and rightly so. Everyone could understand that. Clean programs counted for something because it didn't interrupt the flow and beauty of the program. I think figure skating is in for a very rough ride in the U.S. and understandably so. This is a totally confused sport and a totally confused audience thanks to the ISU and the Europeans who are in control of it.

Well, and Evan totally crashed on the Quad - therefore Johnny should have won because he stayed on his feet in contrast to Kozuka and Evan?

And it was never clear who the winner was, there were zillions of controversal decisions before COP came. After the old judging system, who would have won today? Reynolds? Because the last three all had the exact same jumps, the same mistakes, the Quad (except that Johnny didn't actually fell on his downgraded Quad) and minor wobble on another jump. Kozuka had maxed out the combos and the other two didn't.

And what's with the "the Europeans are to blame"? Sometimes I get the feeling that you lot love the poor innocent and badly bashed underdog - role.

 

[ks777]

I am watching this on cbc now and Kurt Browning said Kevin Reynolds reminds him of " Jeffery Geoble"!! It's Timothy Geoble, isn't it??

 

[museksk8r]

And what's with the "the Europeans are to blame"? Sometimes I get the feeling that you lot love the poor innocent and badly bashed underdog - role.

I have to agree! "The Europeans" is a very bad word choice. "The ISU governing members" is more accurate. The people of an entire continent shouldn't be held to blame for the state of figure skating. In a way, it's like saying that every European person in the entire world is in total agreement with how the sport is being governed. As an American, I surely wouldn't want ANYONE to say that I approve of the actions of George W. Bush. The truth is a very different story!

 

[dutchherder]

I like Evan's new lp, and think it will improve over the season as he becomes more accustomed to it. Hate the costume, though. It makes him look gangly.

Johnny needs some variety... perhaps he should consult someone like Kurt Browning for new footwork ideas, and he definitely needs some new costume ideas. All of his programs are starting to run together.

Very pleasantly surprised with Kozuka!

 

[museksk8r]

I am watching this on cbc now and Kurt Browning said Kevin Reynolds reminds him of " Jeffery Geoble"!! It's Timothy Geoble, isn't it??

Yes, it's Timothy, and ow!, what an insult, but I am in agreement with Kurt.

 

[museksk8r]

Johnny needs some variety... perhaps he should consult someone like Kurt Browning for new footwork ideas, and he definitely needs some new costume ideas. All of his programs are starting to run together.

I really agree. The consensus from everywhere I'm reading is that Johnny is becoming unoriginal and stagnant. His cautiousness in the LP continues to haunt him.

 

[ks777]

Is Kevin Reynolds related to Racheal Flatt?

 

[Mathman]

The fact that the audience doesn't get this result is very bad news for the sport.

I agree. The audience cannot see any connection between what they see on the ice and the funny little numbers that say this guy won, that guy lost.

Plus, all too many contests are decided by underrotaion calls that are impossible to judge convincingly one way or the other.

And it was never clear who the winner was, there were zillions of controversal decisions before COP came.

To me, this is different question. It was always clear why skater A won and skater B lost. The majority of the judges liked skater A's performance better.

I really think that skating is inherently ordinals. Quality rather than quantity. This performance is better than that one. I may disagree with the judges, but that is not a "controversy," that's just the nature of things.

Who would have won totay? It could have gone several different ways. Possibly the audience might have left the arena saying, boo, the judges are blind, my fave got robbed! But that's a lot better than leaving with an indifferent shrug and a blank stare.

Yes, it's Timothy, and ow!, what an insult, but I am in agreement with Kurt.

I have to stick up for my boy, the Quad King. Goebel could land his jumps. The rest of his skating, OK, you've got me there, but still...

 

[Tonichelle]

I dunno I get tired of Sandra and Scott bad mouthing the CoP when essentially they had a big hand in getting it to us. Mainly because the whole "nit picking the technical" is exactly what they did and demanded the judges do in 2002. You can't have it both ways.

 

[emma]

I'm a fence sitter on this debate - I do like the 'whole impression' counting and the sense that "that was great!!" being meaningful -- but I also hate, hate, hate, when technical superiority is overlooked because he/she didn't 'sell' it (and yes, I'm thinking Kwan 1998,l Kerrigan 1994 and many, many, many others).

About the men - I was underwhelmed with the LP's but was tired too...so who knows. Weir is one big recycle right now and that he isn't even stronger/better makes me think: this is as good as it gets. I actually think Evan shows improvement - but he had enough obvious to me errors that I didn't feel he 'wuzrobbed' per se, I just thought the top three were a mixed bag and hard to judge - I don't think I would have been much clear under 6.0, and do think that Kazuka's edges, knee bend, and flow are really really in a class of there own in this comp....any order and I would have said, sure. this order seemed right to me based especially on what I read about the sp.

 

[yelyoh]

Just keep having the feeling that Johnny is caught somewhere between skating to win and skating not to lose. Evan (whom I like less) always seems to be skating to win. I wish JW would just let loose and skate with more attack. Both of them seem to be getting awfully redundant in general with their programs.

 

[siberia82]

I am watching this on cbc now and Kurt Browning said Kevin Reynolds reminds him of " Jeffery Geoble"!! It's Timothy Geoble, isn't it??

I laughed my head off when Kurt made that huge blunder!

 

[ManyCairns]

Just keep having the feeling that Johnny is caught somewhere between skating to win and skating not to lose. Evan (whom I like less) always seems to be skating to win. I wish JW would just let loose and skate with more attack. Both of them seem to be getting awfully redundant in general with their programs.

That's a great observation. Johnny (though I'm a fan) does need to let loose and/or try something new. Evan is also very redundant -- esp. since so far TT's influence doesn't appear to have changed much but the costume. But maybe both men are still thinking of this as a building year for the Olys and they're saving their best ideas for next season [she writes hopefully].


About TIM: Wow, what a major blunder by Kurt. Geez. Since I usually go for the very artistic skaters, it's odd, but I always really enjoyed watching Tim. Sad that he has already been "forgotten" to the extent of having his name mistaken by a commentator.

 

[lmarie086]

Just keep having the feeling that Johnny is caught somewhere between skating to win and skating not to lose. Evan (whom I like less) always seems to be skating to win. I wish JW would just let loose and skate with more attack. Both of them seem to be getting awfully redundant in general with their programs.

That's a very good point. Which reminds me...I miss: "Singin' in the Rain" Evan! and "Otonal" Johnny! That was the last time I felt Johnny was really free within the choreography. And there are times I wish he'd at the very least go to Priscilla Hill for some choreography (didn't she do Otonal? Or am I crazy?), because his best work came when he worked with her.

But maybe both men are still thinking of this as a building year for the Olys and they're saving their best ideas for next season [she writes hopefully].

Ooh boy I am hoping the same! It's very interesting...I know it is too early but I'm already thinking of which US men I'd like to see on the Olympic team. It'll only confuse me into thinking the Olympics are in 2009 rather than 2010, but it's fun to think about lol!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Isn' it funny how American boys were touted for a sweep, and they, amongst the three of them, couldn't even manage to win a gold! LOL

I'm a stickler for not being inluenced by predictions.

I have to agree! "The Europeans" is a very bad word choice. "The ISU governing members" is more accurate. The people of an entire continent shouldn't be held to blame for the state of figure skating. In a way, it's like saying that every European person in the entire world is in total agreement with how the sport is being governed. As an American, I surely wouldn't want ANYONE to say that I approve of the actions of George W. Bush. The truth is a very different story!

The organization is run by the man according to the wishes of the most powerful influences in his election to that post.

Now guess the names I left out.

 

[Tonichelle]

I'm a fence sitter on this debate - I do like the 'whole impression' counting and the sense that "that was great!!" being meaningful -- but I also hate, hate, hate, when technical superiority is overlooked because he/she didn't 'sell' it (and yes, I'm thinking Kwan 1998,l Kerrigan 1994 and many, many, many others).

I am much like you - I don't see anything different with CoP than I did with 6.0 as far as better or worse, it's just different, and I do like some of the pros that CoP has. It should be sport first when it comes down to it. I have no problem with the nitpicks.

I would like to see consistency in the judging, but we didn't get that under 6.0 so why would we expect it here? Until they get rid of crooked judging and find someway to have the judges be independant from all federations including the very body that governs the sport (and ok, until they can find a dozen perfect people who never ever think about cheating) then we're going to have a few moments of "huh?"

yeah it would be nice to chant 6.0, but it's not coming back...

 

[momjudi]

That's a very good point. Which reminds me...I miss: "Singin' in the Rain" Evan! and "Otonal" Johnny! That was the last time I felt Johnny was really free within the choreography. And there are times I wish he'd at the very least go to Priscilla Hill for some choreography (didn't she do Otonal? Or am I crazy?), because his best work came when he worked with her.

TaT did the choreography for Otonal.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

About the men - I was underwhelmed with the LP's but was tired too...so who knows. Weir is one big recycle right now and that he isn't even stronger/better makes me think: this is as good as it gets. I actually think Evan shows improvement - but he had enough obvious to me errors that I didn't feel he 'wuzrobbed' per se, I just thought the top three were a mixed bag and hard to judge - I don't think I would have been much clear under 6.0, and do think that Kazuka's edges, knee bend, and flow are really really in a class of there own in this comp....any order and I would have said, sure. this order seemed right to me based especially on what I read about the sp.

I kind of agree with you, but i also think that Johnny and Evan have been around more often than not. I can understand Buttle calling it quits and Lambiel getting bored. Of course neither Johnny nor Evan will retire before the 2010 Olys but I really think they should after that event is over - win or lose -.

Their recycling programs are like, we've seen this before , and what is there for the new season? This leaves both J and E vulnerable to newer fresher talents which they have experienced in this year's SA. Not just Kozuka but Reynolds, Schultheiss and Sawyer. And that's just SA. What about the one's we haven't yet seen in the forthcoming GPs? Younger, fresher talent looking toward 2014, and the one or two who will rise to the occasion in 2010, and be an eye opener. It can happen, and will.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Johnny's LP is his worst ever, IMO. There's nothing new in there and it doesn't create much of a feeling or even build to much of a climax. He does have a few good moments within the program, but this is far below what he is capable of. His Short Programs these past 3 seasons have all been sub-par for him as well. Johnny is currently at an all-time artistic low and that's sad to see. (although he's at least still a bit better than Lysacek)

I'm also annoyed that he isn't maxing out his combinations. He needs to do 3 of them, including the 3-jump combo! I really wish he would start training this jump layout:

4Toe
3Axel-3Toe
3Flip
3Axel
-----
3Lutz-3Toe
3Loop
2Axel-2Toe-2Loop
3Sal

I do agree with the overall results of the competition. Takahiko Kozuka wasn't amazing, but he was slightly better than Weir and Lysacek. I hope he improves artistically.

 

[seafoam]

Hmm...well. I don't agree that these programs are horrible for Johnny. I think they're already way ahead of last years (as happy as I was at Johnny's comeback, I thought those programs were pretty boring. I haven't rewatched them much)

I've watched the new ones a few times, and they improve with repeat viewings, imo. And I don't agree that he hasn't changed or improved over time. He's not going to change his basic style much. He already tried that. It didn't work out too well. But he has come a long way as far as using his whole body effectively (without resorting to flailing) and, yes, expressiveness. He'll never be a flashy showman, but he's not nearly as introverted as he used to be.

I'm not in love with the music of either the SP or LP, but I think he does use it well. I don't agree at all that he could be skating to anything.

Are they on par with the Swan or Valse Triste? No. But I doubt he'll be on that level again unless he chooses truly wonderful, memorable music. It makes such a huge difference, especially with a skater as refined and subtle as Johnny. I hope he realizes that in time for next season.

And, it's still early in the season. These were his first public performances of these programs. Maybe wait until at least until NHK before writing him off completely.