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It said somewhere in an article that 07 nationals is the first time Caroline has taken a fall during a competition. Does anyone know if that's true or not?
Michelle’s jump consistency: fact or nostalgia?
- Thread starter Mathman
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It said somewhere in an article that 07 nationals is the first time Caroline has taken a fall during a competition. Does anyone know if that's true or not?
Let's see.......If Michelle did, say, only 50 competitions in her career and each with an SP & FP. That would total 100 programs. If she performed the 3/3 in only 11 of those programs, that's pretty dog-gone rare! (Mathman probably has the exact tally!) Don't get me wrong. I think no one will ever match her winning record. But the two biggest ones ('98 and '02 Olympics) got away to gals who dared: Tara and Sarah! Wow, that still hurts!
P.S. I've never witnessed a Michelle meltdown. Her skating was poised regardless of a fall. She was up and back in stride so quickly that you would have forgotten the fall if you didn't have the scores or tape to remind you.
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Her nationals 1997 Nationals skate was a meltdown, no if and's about that one. It may have been that boot deal that was signed. I remember being kind of shocked, she still remained in the top 3. Honestly, her meltdown was the only reason that Tara beat her.
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Actually she really didn't. After Tara retired, Michelle really didn't have any rivals. I never considered Marya her rival. Michelle could have really pushed her technically much much more but she never had to. I really think she was capable of much more than the 3toe/3toe, if she had to push herself. but she never had to. There was pretty much nobody that could beat a clean Michelle until Slutsyaka gotten so much better and Michelle lost consistancy on her jumps.
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[QUOTE= the point of doing tricks that you simply cannot skate cleanly... but I guess if points are all that matters - the fans are going to have alter the ideal of a clean program...[/QUOTE]
You took the words right out of my mouth. What bothers me is that a program that is not clean is becoming acceptable and that in a few years the newer fans will think that point value of a program is imore important than skating clean.
You took the words right out of my mouth. What bothers me is that a program that is not clean is becoming acceptable and that in a few years the newer fans will think that point value of a program is imore important than skating clean.
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No, that would be Midori Ito.
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Actually 2002 Worlds qualifying instead of 2002 Worlds.
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Irina was her strongest rival from 99-2000 season onwards. Then Sasha emerged as a rival from 2002-2003 season onwards as well. So it is not true she had no strong rivals. Irina and Sasha would have been even bigger threats to Michelle then Tara ever was if they had Taras consistency in the biggest competitions. They often beat a clean Michelle in short programs which Tara never came close to doing, and even with a triple toe-triple toe Michelle was not a lock to win until Irina skated whereas vs Tara a triple toe-triple would put it over already.
At Worlds 99, Butyrskaya was a rival. She never had perfect programs but the one time she did she became a true rival
You could say the same about Sokolova. In 2003 with the triple-triples she was a serious rival. Had Michelle screwed up a jump or a few, Sokolova would have been World Champion. Michelle had no margin of error.
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I agree with this. I much prefer Michelles consistency in landing 7 triples, and occasionaly a triple toe-triple toe, along with giving such a well balanced package of excellent overall skating; to todays women trying much harder jumps and combinations, but flutzing, underotating, stumbling or popping out of several per competition at times, and with even the non-jump elements, and in between skating and choreography of the programs alot like an Easter egg points hunt.
I was never too technique savvy so I guess I always had a more simplistic view of a clean program. To me a program was clean if there were no falls on the jumps.
Mathman's analysis takes a different view of a clean program. But looking at it from my point of view - yes, Michelle did have jump consistency.
The years when her consistency took a hit her were the years she decided to go to college- which cut into her practice time, obviously.
Mathman's analysis takes a different view of a clean program. But looking at it from my point of view - yes, Michelle did have jump consistency.
The years when her consistency took a hit her were the years she decided to go to college- which cut into her practice time, obviously.
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It was on one foot all the way, so technically it was clean, just not the best. I am pretty sure Butyrskaya wins the short that year anyway.
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Michelle had the most AMAZING focus and dependability I've ever seen in a ladies figure skater. I think back to the 2001 Worlds Qualifying when her warm-up was cut short due to the heel of her boot coming loose after she fell on a 2Axel. Danny helped screw the heel back for her moments later and BAM!, she completely nails 7 beautiful triples, including a 3toe+3toe, to win the QR over all the ladies.
Also, at the 2004 Worlds, who will ever forget the streaker whose attempt to spook Kwan right before her LP and ridicule the event fell by the wayside when Kwan came out fighting, unwilling to waiver from the job at hand. 5 clean, gorgeous triples later, she placed 2nd in the LP after being 5th in the QR and 4th in the SP to capture the bronze medal. VERY IMPRESSIVE!
Also, at the 2004 Worlds, who will ever forget the streaker whose attempt to spook Kwan right before her LP and ridicule the event fell by the wayside when Kwan came out fighting, unwilling to waiver from the job at hand. 5 clean, gorgeous triples later, she placed 2nd in the LP after being 5th in the QR and 4th in the SP to capture the bronze medal. VERY IMPRESSIVE!
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when I think her her consistency I think more of the # of times she has fallen rather than the number of times that she has singled somthing. Michelle doesn't fall that often.
I would consider this a clean program. I think doubling the 2nd jump of a 3/3 combo is clean just as changing a 4/3 to to 3/3 is clean.
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At 2001 Nationals, Kwan did a clean 2toe+2toe, but remember she added an unplanned 3toe at the end of the program to make up for that error, so in general, I would also classify this as a clean program. It just lacked the intended difficulty of a 3+3, which she had planned to do. Still, everything was CLEAN and she nailed 6 triples.
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I would not call a program by Michelle Kwan with a double toe-double toe as clean. Just like I would not count Irinas 2000 World LP with a double salchow early on clean even though she threw that in right after and landed 6 triples (without the triple-triple planned).
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Under 6.0 though, doubling a jump was not as big a deal as it is now under COP. There was no penalty for doubling, especially if a skater was able to add the triple later on in the program. I still say her '01 skate was clean.
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- Mar 22, 2004
"clean" is not a discrete category.
(nb. by downgrading, I mean here downgrading done intentionally by the skater and not downgrading as determined by the caller, there's got to be a better way to distinguish the two)
At one end we have "sqeaky clean" - all elements completed as planned, no faulty take-offs or landings, no stumbles in footwork or faulty spins, ends with the music (not before or after). This is very rare, maybe Kwan's lp in 2000 or 2001?
At the other hand we have total meltdown (minority of elements completed as planned, either with falls, massive cascading downgrading, popping, stumbles, slips, improvised choreography etc)
A program with one downgraded jump (or downgraded combination) is still basically clean in my book, if not optimal. It's definitely 'cleaner' to me than a program with faulty edges on takeoff, massive prerotation, cleverly disguised two footed landings, standstill landings etc even if the skater (or caller) doesn't downgrade any jumps.
Again, often skaters downgrade almost involuntarily, a body reaction to faulty approach conditions and I'd rather have a skater downgrade to a double rather than ignore their instincts and fall.
Finally, COP is structured with almost no flexibility in terms of jumping passes (and make ups of same) so 'clean' programs are going to be almost non-existent. You want clean programs, alter the jump structure of COP.
(nb. by downgrading, I mean here downgrading done intentionally by the skater and not downgrading as determined by the caller, there's got to be a better way to distinguish the two)
At one end we have "sqeaky clean" - all elements completed as planned, no faulty take-offs or landings, no stumbles in footwork or faulty spins, ends with the music (not before or after). This is very rare, maybe Kwan's lp in 2000 or 2001?
At the other hand we have total meltdown (minority of elements completed as planned, either with falls, massive cascading downgrading, popping, stumbles, slips, improvised choreography etc)
A program with one downgraded jump (or downgraded combination) is still basically clean in my book, if not optimal. It's definitely 'cleaner' to me than a program with faulty edges on takeoff, massive prerotation, cleverly disguised two footed landings, standstill landings etc even if the skater (or caller) doesn't downgrade any jumps.
Again, often skaters downgrade almost involuntarily, a body reaction to faulty approach conditions and I'd rather have a skater downgrade to a double rather than ignore their instincts and fall.
Finally, COP is structured with almost no flexibility in terms of jumping passes (and make ups of same) so 'clean' programs are going to be almost non-existent. You want clean programs, alter the jump structure of COP.
