You had me so far, but I'm not sure I understand this point. If a skater is going to be using makeup jump passes to make up for doubled or poppsed (or otherwise flawed) jumps earlier, then the earlier attempts were not clean. Except insofar as clean double jumps or single axels are clean jumps so the program would still be clean (just lower in base value) without any makeups.
Michelle’s jump consistency: fact or nostalgia?
- Thread starter Mathman
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You had me so far, but I'm not sure I understand this point. If a skater is going to be using makeup jump passes to make up for doubled or poppsed (or otherwise flawed) jumps earlier, then the earlier attempts were not clean. Except insofar as clean double jumps or single axels are clean jumps so the program would still be clean (just lower in base value) without any makeups.
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2004
Yeah,
I think COP discourages discretionary downgrading because skaters know it'll screw up their jumping pass limit/zayak count so skaters go for jumps that they might scale back if they had more flexibility to make jumps up. The result is ... falls or general fugliness.
Wow. Couldn't disagree more. I think Tara, Sasha, & Irina especially were definitely formidable opponents. I think Michelle caught something of a "breather" at 99 Nationals, especially with Nicole out, but other than that there was always someone waiting in the wings.
I also agree that MK was a really great competitor. I know a lot of people who aren't big fans of her skating but even all of them agree on that point. I think that's the very reason she'll never turn professional. She'll retire obviously but I'd be stunned to see her start up a long & storied career as a professional skater. I think the thrill of the fight is too strong in her.
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- Jan 24, 2004
Okay, you may argue that she didn't push women's skating technically. But to say that say she didn't push herself technically is a little ridiculous considering what happened to her in 2005-2006. You don't develop a potentially career-ending injury by not pushing yourself. Perhaps the 3toe/3oe was all she was capable of. Had she pounded out other 3/3 combos her hips may not have made it all the way to 2005.ks77 said:
I Would Bet Money
I would bet money if you canvassed all the coaches in the world, most of them would say Michelle Kwan was the most reliable, complete and the greatest skater of all time. She was also one of the most technicalIy beautiful skaters of all time. I feel privileged to have been able to see her. I think her greatest rival was Irina, who was also one very special skater. She made Michelle better by being her competition.
I would bet money if you canvassed all the coaches in the world, most of them would say Michelle Kwan was the most reliable, complete and the greatest skater of all time. She was also one of the most technicalIy beautiful skaters of all time. I feel privileged to have been able to see her. I think her greatest rival was Irina, who was also one very special skater. She made Michelle better by being her competition.
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After watching some youtube, I think that Michelle gave alot to the sport. The only reason the other girls started the 3/3's was becuse they couldn't beat a clean Kwan without one. Michelle could do the 3/3 when she was up against the wall, but she didn't need one to win. She had superb, unchallenged artistry. If she skated clean the other girls knew they needed the 3/3 to beat her. So she did push the other girls.
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- Jan 22, 2004
This is how I’ve always viewed Michelle’s career. Like many I feel that she had an amazing career due in part to her consistency. However, on the flip side, her success, IMO, can also be attributed to the lack of a strong rival (especially early in her career). There was Tara for 1 season, but she never had a rivalry like Orsor & Botiano, Plushenko & Yagudin or Mao & Kim. For the most part it was Michelle, and then her competitors trailing, sometimes significantly, behind.
I agree. Michelle had no reason to push herself because unlike the lady’s field today, she came up during a time when she was pretty much the only skater with the “complete package.” She had wonderful artistry and consistent jumps. Most skaters during her time either had beautiful artistry but problems with their jumps, consistent jumps and limited artistry, or neither good artistry or consistent jumps. She didn’t have to push herself because there wasn’t a constant competitor with good artistry and jumps (particulary 3/3s) to push her. Tara had the potential to be a formidable rival, but she retired after Nagano, and by the time Irina came into her own Michelle had started to move past her peak.
I'm sorry, but I just can't believe that in over a decade, Michelle only had one strong rival. That (IMO) is simply unreal.
Irina had a pretty impressive winning streak until she would go up against Michelle at worlds in 2000 and 2001 -- she was no slouch. She made Kwan stretch her artistry as far as it would go -- and maintain her consistency -- and Kwan pushed her.
Heading Into 2002, Irina did better -- the next season, they didn't compete against each other because MK skipped the GP and Irina's mom got sick, so she skipped Worlds. In the '03/'04 season, Irina was sick; when Irina was healthy, Michelle was hurt.
Irina had a pretty impressive winning streak until she would go up against Michelle at worlds in 2000 and 2001 -- she was no slouch. She made Kwan stretch her artistry as far as it would go -- and maintain her consistency -- and Kwan pushed her.
Heading Into 2002, Irina did better -- the next season, they didn't compete against each other because MK skipped the GP and Irina's mom got sick, so she skipped Worlds. In the '03/'04 season, Irina was sick; when Irina was healthy, Michelle was hurt.
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- Mar 28, 2005
I laugh at people dismissing the Irina-Michelle rivalry, or saying Michelle was already past her peak when it started. Her performances at the 2000 and 2001 Worlds in the LP were probably her best ever when you consider technical aspects of the skates too. Even her amazing performances at the 1998 U.S Nationals she didnt land a triple-triple, and she was even faster and more dynamic in her 2000 and 2001 Worlds LP. She was spurred to that level of performance due to the incredible opposition offered by Irina those years, and even Maria in 2000 (who remember won the short program at Worlds that year, and was defending World Champion). Irina and Michelle had an intense 3 year rivalry from the 99-2000 season through to the 2001-2002 season. Unfortunately the rivalry was stalled from there due to alternating health problems for both, as well as personal problems for Irina. Irina was even a close competitor of Michelle in 94-96, and despite the beginning stages of her slump was still a close competitor to both Michelle and Tara in 97, before the major problems of the 97-98 and 98-99 seasons.
Maria could be classified as a challenger to Kwan from the 98-99 and 2001-2002 seasons, not a great rival but still a competitive threat to some extent. When Michelle faltered at the 99 Worlds Maria ended up beating her for the title in convincing fashion, also remember Michelle's performance in the 99 LP at Worlds while not perfect was fairly respectable, she landed 6 clean triples, only stepped out of the triple lutz (so even was close to all 7 triples), did not do the triple-triple she had planned, and singled a double axel. Maria still won straight 1st places in the LP, Michelle would have needed to skate her best to have beaten her, which is what I call a legitimate challenge put forth. Maria remember won the short program at the 2000 Worlds over both Irina and Michelle, she couldnt hang on in the LP, but again she was very much challening too. She lost a controversial 5-4 split to Irina at NHK in 2000, which would have made Irina the only one to go undefeated in the GP series in the 2000-2001 season, Michelle losing once and had that decision gone the way most think it should have then Irina also would have, and Maria would have topped both in the GP series. Maria also beat Michelle in the SP in the 2001 GP final. Maria was always lurking throughout that quadrennial, but she wasnt consistent enough, and most times Michelle and Irina were just too strong also.
Cohen I would classify as a Kwan rival too. Kwan had to come from behind to beat Cohen for the title at the 2000 Nationals. Kwan had to fend off an impressive Cohen at the 2002 Natonals, and had to fend off Cohen for a medal at the 2002 Olympics. Cohen was considered Kwan's most serious threat at both the 2003 Nationals and 2003 Worlds. Kwan had to come from behind after the SP to beat Cohen at the 2004 U.S Nationals again and did. Cohen then beat Kwan at the 2004 Worlds. Kwan beat Cohen to tie the record for U.S titles at the 2005 U.S Nationals, then Cohen again beat her at Worlds. That was a rivalry.
Even Hughes was a mini rival of sorts.
Kwan had many impressive rivals and she stared them all down. She actually had more challengers after Tara left then when Tara was there, where for awhile it was only Tara. Also even Tara she was thought to only have any chance of losing to with major falls, that was until the shock of Nagano. Tara's other wins were all when Michelle had multiple more and more serious mistakes and Tara was squeeky clean.
Maria could be classified as a challenger to Kwan from the 98-99 and 2001-2002 seasons, not a great rival but still a competitive threat to some extent. When Michelle faltered at the 99 Worlds Maria ended up beating her for the title in convincing fashion, also remember Michelle's performance in the 99 LP at Worlds while not perfect was fairly respectable, she landed 6 clean triples, only stepped out of the triple lutz (so even was close to all 7 triples), did not do the triple-triple she had planned, and singled a double axel. Maria still won straight 1st places in the LP, Michelle would have needed to skate her best to have beaten her, which is what I call a legitimate challenge put forth. Maria remember won the short program at the 2000 Worlds over both Irina and Michelle, she couldnt hang on in the LP, but again she was very much challening too. She lost a controversial 5-4 split to Irina at NHK in 2000, which would have made Irina the only one to go undefeated in the GP series in the 2000-2001 season, Michelle losing once and had that decision gone the way most think it should have then Irina also would have, and Maria would have topped both in the GP series. Maria also beat Michelle in the SP in the 2001 GP final. Maria was always lurking throughout that quadrennial, but she wasnt consistent enough, and most times Michelle and Irina were just too strong also.
Cohen I would classify as a Kwan rival too. Kwan had to come from behind to beat Cohen for the title at the 2000 Nationals. Kwan had to fend off an impressive Cohen at the 2002 Natonals, and had to fend off Cohen for a medal at the 2002 Olympics. Cohen was considered Kwan's most serious threat at both the 2003 Nationals and 2003 Worlds. Kwan had to come from behind after the SP to beat Cohen at the 2004 U.S Nationals again and did. Cohen then beat Kwan at the 2004 Worlds. Kwan beat Cohen to tie the record for U.S titles at the 2005 U.S Nationals, then Cohen again beat her at Worlds. That was a rivalry.
Even Hughes was a mini rival of sorts.
Kwan had many impressive rivals and she stared them all down. She actually had more challengers after Tara left then when Tara was there, where for awhile it was only Tara. Also even Tara she was thought to only have any chance of losing to with major falls, that was until the shock of Nagano. Tara's other wins were all when Michelle had multiple more and more serious mistakes and Tara was squeeky clean.
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- Joined
- Jan 23, 2004
I was going to respond to the rival and pushing her technical limit myth that exists regarding Kwan, but thanks to Slutskayafan and Attyfan I could have not said it better.
Thanks for this very eloquent post, slutskayafan. It's important to remember that though Irina + Maria did not have it all together many times, the times that they were on, they certainly presented a challenge to Michelle. Same for Hughes and Cohen. If people object to this point by saying that only consistent skaters qualify as real rivals, then I'd reply by saying that there aren't many of those in the history of skating. Midori Ito floundered. Yamaguchi fell on her jumps. Lipinski had her bad moments. So did Yuna Kim + Mao Asada. Incredibly consistent skaters are tough to find.
Well, Baiul's LP in 1993, Sato's in 1994, Chen's in 1995, Butyrskaya's in 1999, or Slutskaya's in 2002 were not any more difficult than Kwan's in the years that she won, and in some cases less so.
Michelle's jump consistency.......
It all comes downs to nothing more than opinion.
Michelle's greatness can't really be debated because her record speaks volumes. Personally, I think her greatness lies in fact that she is the greatest competitor I've seen with Slutskaya close behind. Michelle delivered consistently at competitions for a decade. But, as I've mentioned before, I feel luck plays a significant role with any athlete. Michelle was born at the right time to compete among skaters who she could beat. Except for the Olympics, she had a stellar career.
However, if Michelle were to compete against these new skaters like Asada, Kim, and the new upcoming US ladies (not Kimmie because I think she skates much like Michelle minus the artistry), I wonder how she would fare. The new ladies offer something different and are able to really rack up the COP points.
I'm not saying the new ladies are better than Michelle, they are just different and offer another facet to skating. Although I've always been a huge fan of Michelle Kwan, I love figureskating enough to see the wonderful new skaters and what they have to offer. To me, I've closed the book on Michelle's competitive career and can move on. If she comes back to compete, I will be happy to watch but frankly the new ladies interest me more now.
Dizzy
It all comes downs to nothing more than opinion.
Michelle's greatness can't really be debated because her record speaks volumes. Personally, I think her greatness lies in fact that she is the greatest competitor I've seen with Slutskaya close behind. Michelle delivered consistently at competitions for a decade. But, as I've mentioned before, I feel luck plays a significant role with any athlete. Michelle was born at the right time to compete among skaters who she could beat. Except for the Olympics, she had a stellar career.
However, if Michelle were to compete against these new skaters like Asada, Kim, and the new upcoming US ladies (not Kimmie because I think she skates much like Michelle minus the artistry), I wonder how she would fare. The new ladies offer something different and are able to really rack up the COP points.
I'm not saying the new ladies are better than Michelle, they are just different and offer another facet to skating. Although I've always been a huge fan of Michelle Kwan, I love figureskating enough to see the wonderful new skaters and what they have to offer. To me, I've closed the book on Michelle's competitive career and can move on. If she comes back to compete, I will be happy to watch but frankly the new ladies interest me more now.
Dizzy
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- Oct 31, 2006
- Country
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Michelle/Tara Rivalry:
1996 Nationals: Michelle GOLD, Tara BRONZE
1996 Worlds: Michelle GOLD, Tara 15TH
1996-97 Trophee Lalique; Michelle GOLD, Tara BRONZE
1997 Nationals: Tara GOLD, Michelle SILVER
1997 Champions Series Final: Tara GOLD, Michelle SILVER
1997 Worlds: Tara GOLD, Michelle SILVER
1997-98 Skate America: Michelle GOLD, Tara SILVER
1998 Nationals; Michelle GOLD, Tara SILVER
1998 Olympics: Tara GOLD, Michelle SILVER
It's disappointing that Michelle and Tara only competed against each other 9 times. Michelle has 5 wins and Tara has 4. It's a shame this rivalry did not last longer. It's this reason that I've always believed Kwan's greatest rival to be Irina Slutskaya.
1996 Nationals: Michelle GOLD, Tara BRONZE
1996 Worlds: Michelle GOLD, Tara 15TH
1996-97 Trophee Lalique; Michelle GOLD, Tara BRONZE
1997 Nationals: Tara GOLD, Michelle SILVER
1997 Champions Series Final: Tara GOLD, Michelle SILVER
1997 Worlds: Tara GOLD, Michelle SILVER
1997-98 Skate America: Michelle GOLD, Tara SILVER
1998 Nationals; Michelle GOLD, Tara SILVER
1998 Olympics: Tara GOLD, Michelle SILVER
It's disappointing that Michelle and Tara only competed against each other 9 times. Michelle has 5 wins and Tara has 4. It's a shame this rivalry did not last longer. It's this reason that I've always believed Kwan's greatest rival to be Irina Slutskaya.
I agree -- it would be interesting how she would fare. My guess is that she would fare something like Stephanie Rosanthal at the '06 Nats -- the program that everyone was talking about, but didn't score that high in the points department. OTOH, in a competion like '06 Olys (which, IMO is the ladies equivalent of '03 Men's Nats) , a healthy Michelle could hold her own.
Takahashi should watch Rosanthal's hiphop program.
Throwing a few breakdance moves does not say hiphop.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
People who started following Michelle's career only near the end sometimes forget that she started out as a little jumping bean. Not much finesse, but she could jump up a storm. She beat Lu Chen, a much more artistically mature skater at the time, at 1996 Worlds by (barely) outjumping her.
Only later did her presentation skills catch up.
Only later did her presentation skills catch up.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2004
Exactly! And this is why I shake my head at my online friends who attempt to make the claim that Kwan couldn't hang with the fresh faces on the scene... She move seamlessly through the years going from jumping bean to favorite to the Kween and its impossible to honestly say that she was good for her time, but not up to snuff with this generation... One, this isn't true and Two, let's see how great these skaters become once age & years of ice pounding take their toll - if you take away the 3a and 3/3 what do these skaters have to offer for the long haul?
My biggest fear for the sport is that we will continue to discard and annoint skaters too soon and fail to see just how great they can become...
