Perhaps, but if I read the article correctly she says she wants to go for it one more time, not that she wants to COMPETE one more time. That alone tells me that she is shooting for gold. And man, does she have work to do...the last international event IIRC that she won was Worlds 03, and Irina, one of her biggest competitors, was missing from that lineup (not to mention she was in the good ol' USA, with the crowd rampant about her). But good for her for committing to it, and I wish her the best.
Michelle makes it official!!!
- Thread starter nymkfan51
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Perhaps, but if I read the article correctly she says she wants to go for it one more time, not that she wants to COMPETE one more time. That alone tells me that she is shooting for gold. And man, does she have work to do...the last international event IIRC that she won was Worlds 03, and Irina, one of her biggest competitors, was missing from that lineup (not to mention she was in the good ol' USA, with the crowd rampant about her). But good for her for committing to it, and I wish her the best.
You know, I'm just not sure about these people (mostly Kwan fans) saying she's finished just because she doesn't do the GP. It doesn't mean anything. Look at the skaters who did the GP last year. With the exception of Irina, everyone else had results all over the map. Melted in the GP, did great at Worlds, and vice versa. Now, I can make my own recommendation (and I believe doing the GP would be to her benefit to gain experience under the new system and get the nerves settled) but it doesn't mean that's what would work for HER. Maybe now with one competition under her belt she knows what to work on to maximize points. If she didn't fall in the FS and have that QR she would have been 3rd (or 2nd?), so she's not out of it for sure. And especially since the Olympics don't have a QR that works to Kwan's advantage very much. I don't think the podium should be that much of a reach for her. However, a win certainly is, and there are more than two contenders this time around. This could be the hardest Olys for her yet.
IF SHE WANTS TO WIN:
GO FOR IT, leave the nerves and caution behind. She lost 1998 AND 2002 because of this.
STEP IT UP. Make your programs more difficult, and be prepared to do a jump sequence or 3-3 combination. Also wouldn't hurt to figure out what you need to do to maximize points (This is where doing the GP might work to her advantage).
That's all I've got to say. I've pulled for her the past two times. Will I pull for her this time? Depends. She's got to show me she REALLY wants it first. Otherwise I think I'll find somebody else to cheer for, an underdog, someone who wants it bad.
IF SHE WANTS TO WIN:
GO FOR IT, leave the nerves and caution behind. She lost 1998 AND 2002 because of this.
STEP IT UP. Make your programs more difficult, and be prepared to do a jump sequence or 3-3 combination. Also wouldn't hurt to figure out what you need to do to maximize points (This is where doing the GP might work to her advantage).
That's all I've got to say. I've pulled for her the past two times. Will I pull for her this time? Depends. She's got to show me she REALLY wants it first. Otherwise I think I'll find somebody else to cheer for, an underdog, someone who wants it bad.
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- Jul 26, 2003
There are three arguments for Kwan needing to do the GP, and they have nothing to do with placements in those earlier contests:
1. To get actual feedback early enough in the season to make adjustments
2. To show the ISU that she's an international team player -- i.e., not planted in the US for cheezefests and shows almost exclusively.
3. To sharpen her competitive skills in a non "lovefest" atmosphere in relatively empty arenas outside the US (see #2).
1. To get actual feedback early enough in the season to make adjustments
2. To show the ISU that she's an international team player -- i.e., not planted in the US for cheezefests and shows almost exclusively.
3. To sharpen her competitive skills in a non "lovefest" atmosphere in relatively empty arenas outside the US (see #2).
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Welcome, JGardell, thanks for joining us.
I agree with the posters who think that Realistic has hit the right note. I think Michelle is enthusiastically commited to do her best to win at Torino. I think she knows what it takes to do so. It is always better go in strong rather than apologetic. It is certainly more fun to win than to lose.
At the same time, I believe that Michelle understands that winning or losing an amateur athletic contest -- even one on such a glorious stage as the Olympics -- is not the end of the world.
Either way, she's in a class by herself.
Mathman
I agree with the posters who think that Realistic has hit the right note. I think Michelle is enthusiastically commited to do her best to win at Torino. I think she knows what it takes to do so. It is always better go in strong rather than apologetic. It is certainly more fun to win than to lose.
At the same time, I believe that Michelle understands that winning or losing an amateur athletic contest -- even one on such a glorious stage as the Olympics -- is not the end of the world.
Either way, she's in a class by herself.
Mathman
More....
Nymkfan51 , I really do believe it's over for her as far as the Gold is concerned if she doesn't do the Grand Prix Series. It will be out of her control at that point because the ISU judges will see to it. I am not being paranoid and I don't need a crystal ball. Just common sense to see the obvious. It's the reality of figure skating, like it or not. It is the most political sport there is. But beyond that, she won't be truly ready for the Olympics without the needed feedback. She won't have had time to do the necessary changes etc. and she won't have the experience which is invaluable. Having said that, I would be shocked if she announced she wasn't doing the Grand Prix Series. I believe she has a goal, and it isn't to rack up one more Olympic experience. I think she knows what she has to do, and that is reinvent herself to be competitive under CoP. Yes, I want her to medal or win the gold at the next Olympics. I also want her to do whatever it takes to achieve that goal so she has no regrets, medal or not. Yes, she has tons of wins and brilliant performances as her legacy, and if she stopped now, no one should criticize, and believe me I wouldn't. But this is her last opportunity, realistically speaking. Joesitz is right, she needs to be serious about this and really go for it.
Nymkfan51 , I really do believe it's over for her as far as the Gold is concerned if she doesn't do the Grand Prix Series. It will be out of her control at that point because the ISU judges will see to it. I am not being paranoid and I don't need a crystal ball. Just common sense to see the obvious. It's the reality of figure skating, like it or not. It is the most political sport there is. But beyond that, she won't be truly ready for the Olympics without the needed feedback. She won't have had time to do the necessary changes etc. and she won't have the experience which is invaluable. Having said that, I would be shocked if she announced she wasn't doing the Grand Prix Series. I believe she has a goal, and it isn't to rack up one more Olympic experience. I think she knows what she has to do, and that is reinvent herself to be competitive under CoP. Yes, I want her to medal or win the gold at the next Olympics. I also want her to do whatever it takes to achieve that goal so she has no regrets, medal or not. Yes, she has tons of wins and brilliant performances as her legacy, and if she stopped now, no one should criticize, and believe me I wouldn't. But this is her last opportunity, realistically speaking. Joesitz is right, she needs to be serious about this and really go for it.
kyla2 said:
kyla ... your last post I totally inderstand. You were saying "I believe ... "
It was your earlier post where you stated you were "certain" that she wouldn't win that sort of bothered me. But ...
I really don't think we are far apart in our thinking. We both want her to win, and we both think she should do the GP. Where we differ is, that I think if she chooses not to do it, it will be for a good reason. I can only imagine that she wants the Olympic Gold more than I want it for her ... so I can't believe she would just pass on the GP and say, "nah, I think I'll skip it because I don't feel like doing it." I trust her to make the best decisions for herself. And keep in mind, the favorites do not always win. The pressure is almost unbearable in an Olympic season, and I really think the favorite has a much harder time of putting a perfect performance out there. So she could be helped the more that people write her off.
But as I said in an earlier post, I do think she will do the GP. So hopefully this will all be a moot point.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Two examples of athletes who want to compete: The British guy who did Ski Jump (remember him) and the Prince of Monaco who did the Slalom or was it the DownHill? Both of these athletes knew they would not win but they wanted to compete Why not? Twenty years from then, their grandchildren will learn that granddad was an Olympian. Cool! I'm sure there are many entries where the athlete does not expect to win. There's a slew of them in the first groups to skate, but they want to compete And why not?
Then there is the athlete who just fades away slowly after winning many allocades. Think Billie Jean King; all those golf players. They love the sport and just can't stop but they are no longer competitive.
There is also the athlete who wants to compete and will work toward that goal to win the competition. Not only cool, but sensible. Both the Ladies and Men's Division is not between two top skaters but among a group of probably the most talented competitors in this Olympics in years. There is no clear winner in either group unless you can not go beyond your favorite.
And there is always the law of averages that three or four of the top ten will have a meltdown or at least foul up. Maybe that's how some skaters expect to win a competition.
Hockeyfan's case for doing the GP is sound.
My scenario for the 'season': A new dress! New music! Similar choreography! Same technical but a beautifully skated exhibition. Tweeking the program here and there for Marshalls and Nats until a last minute look at what to do for the Olys.
This scenario applies to America's two top Lady skaters, btw.
Meanwhile, Slutskaya, Suguri, Arakawa, Ando, Rochette, Poykio, will be busy getting the feed back from the international scene doing the GPs.
This is not a bash of the American Ladies. It is, hopefully, a wake-up call to go out and skate their best at the Olys and not in the exhibition style.
Joe
Then there is the athlete who just fades away slowly after winning many allocades. Think Billie Jean King; all those golf players. They love the sport and just can't stop but they are no longer competitive.
There is also the athlete who wants to compete and will work toward that goal to win the competition. Not only cool, but sensible. Both the Ladies and Men's Division is not between two top skaters but among a group of probably the most talented competitors in this Olympics in years. There is no clear winner in either group unless you can not go beyond your favorite.
And there is always the law of averages that three or four of the top ten will have a meltdown or at least foul up. Maybe that's how some skaters expect to win a competition.
Hockeyfan's case for doing the GP is sound.
My scenario for the 'season': A new dress! New music! Similar choreography! Same technical but a beautifully skated exhibition. Tweeking the program here and there for Marshalls and Nats until a last minute look at what to do for the Olys.
This scenario applies to America's two top Lady skaters, btw.
Meanwhile, Slutskaya, Suguri, Arakawa, Ando, Rochette, Poykio, will be busy getting the feed back from the international scene doing the GPs.
This is not a bash of the American Ladies. It is, hopefully, a wake-up call to go out and skate their best at the Olys and not in the exhibition style.
Joe
My only hope is that, assuming she makes it there, she shows up to Torino on fire and ready to go. My impression of her last two season is that she was a bit sluggish. Whether that was due to mental or physical lack of preparation - or, something else entirely, I don't know. Of course, I could be completely wrong, maybe her programs and her skates at Worlds in 2004, and Nats and Worlds 2005 were the best that she was capable at the time. That is what I ask of myself, and that is what I expect of others (right or wrong). It just seems to me that Michelle kind of half-a**ed parts of the last two season. It very well could have been strategy - maintain a level of fitness and competition readiness while preserving her body. If that's the case, it seems very intelligent to me. That being said, it won't be sufficient for the Olympics. If she's aiming for Torino, I hope she goes to win and does all the necessary preparation to do so. IMO, that includes some serious competitions leading up to the Olympics.
A comment on the Michelle likes to compete ... that statement seems incongruous given her approach to the last two seasons. Liking to compete isn't about being at a competition, it's the fire and drive to win that competition. While the outcome may not be an actual win, it does mean putting your best out there and making your competition beat you. (It also doesn't mean not making mistakes - they happen - is just means showing up prepared and giving it your all.) I haven't seen that from Michelle in a while.
I'm not bashing Michelle - I would love to see her win gold in Torino, and I believe she is capable BUT she has a lot of work to do. *** I so wish I was privy to her training methodology - to know the reasoning behind the last few years and what she is doing going forward!
A comment on the Michelle likes to compete ... that statement seems incongruous given her approach to the last two seasons. Liking to compete isn't about being at a competition, it's the fire and drive to win that competition. While the outcome may not be an actual win, it does mean putting your best out there and making your competition beat you. (It also doesn't mean not making mistakes - they happen - is just means showing up prepared and giving it your all.) I haven't seen that from Michelle in a while.
I'm not bashing Michelle - I would love to see her win gold in Torino, and I believe she is capable BUT she has a lot of work to do. *** I so wish I was privy to her training methodology - to know the reasoning behind the last few years and what she is doing going forward!
Michelle
I want Michelle to do the GP for 2 reasons. I want her to give me 1 more season to enjoy and tape the comps shes in. I think it would be in her best interest to play the game for Speedy and also to get feedback from international judges. This will let her experience how she stacks up to the other skaters and their tricks. I dont believe Michelle will skip the GP just cause she doesnt feel like it. I will give the benefit of the doubt if she pulls out due to injury or pain . I just hope she goes forth with motivation and puts down a blow out SP and Lp as she knows this is her last season. I dont think she will go past OLYS. and Worlds. I just hope the OLYS is judged fairly so Skating will continue. Michelle winning would boost the interest in the sport I believe. I wish she wasnt working with NM as has been reported. I think he is limited in his choro and the programs look alike. I guess w will have to wait and see.
I want Michelle to do the GP for 2 reasons. I want her to give me 1 more season to enjoy and tape the comps shes in. I think it would be in her best interest to play the game for Speedy and also to get feedback from international judges. This will let her experience how she stacks up to the other skaters and their tricks. I dont believe Michelle will skip the GP just cause she doesnt feel like it. I will give the benefit of the doubt if she pulls out due to injury or pain . I just hope she goes forth with motivation and puts down a blow out SP and Lp as she knows this is her last season. I dont think she will go past OLYS. and Worlds. I just hope the OLYS is judged fairly so Skating will continue. Michelle winning would boost the interest in the sport I believe. I wish she wasnt working with NM as has been reported. I think he is limited in his choro and the programs look alike. I guess w will have to wait and see.
It seems to me Joe, that you are just really down on Michelle right now. That's perfectly fine ... certainly you have every right to your opinion. I may just have to skip over your posts about her for awhile 
... I just want to enjoy the fact that she's still competing and really love every minute of this upcoming season. 
... I just want to enjoy the fact that she's still competing and really love every minute of this upcoming season. Michelle
Well, I would say we agree NymkFan51 much more than we disagree. We want Michelle to win and see her fight for it. If she can't compete due to real injury, and yes, that does happen, than I would never be critical. Michelle gets as close to unconditional love from me as anyone does (besides my pets-we have no children). I don't agree with Joe that it's going to be more of the same old, same old from the American women (c'mon Joe have faith). They are going to fight for it trust me. No one is a shoe in for the gold as we have seen from the past. I know Michelle knows what she's up against and if anyone on the planet can come back and deliver the goods, she can. I do have faith in her and I hope Rafael is up to this task. I want her most of all, to be proud of what she does in Torino. I don't want her to have any regrets, no matter how it turns out. I want the sports writers to say that she delivered a great performance and she should be proud of what she did. I want the same for Sasha too. I want her to be able to stand and deliver a beautiful program and make no mistakes, or at the very most, minimal mistakes. i want it for them, not me.
Well, I would say we agree NymkFan51 much more than we disagree. We want Michelle to win and see her fight for it. If she can't compete due to real injury, and yes, that does happen, than I would never be critical. Michelle gets as close to unconditional love from me as anyone does (besides my pets-we have no children). I don't agree with Joe that it's going to be more of the same old, same old from the American women (c'mon Joe have faith). They are going to fight for it trust me. No one is a shoe in for the gold as we have seen from the past. I know Michelle knows what she's up against and if anyone on the planet can come back and deliver the goods, she can. I do have faith in her and I hope Rafael is up to this task. I want her most of all, to be proud of what she does in Torino. I don't want her to have any regrets, no matter how it turns out. I want the sports writers to say that she delivered a great performance and she should be proud of what she did. I want the same for Sasha too. I want her to be able to stand and deliver a beautiful program and make no mistakes, or at the very most, minimal mistakes. i want it for them, not me.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
I'm happy, too, that she is still skating, and I'm hoping that I got it all wrong about not doing international competitions until the Olys. If you've been in Dortmund or Moscow you will know that when she takes the ice, there is no big ovation like there is in America. Except for a group of Americans who happen to be there, the crowd is not behind her like they are in the US. There is also the american sasha fans too. She's just another entry in the competition. The fans in Europe know her well and when she skates they nod in approval but they don't see much more than crossovers between elements, and of course there's Carolina (hometown girl) and Irina with solid 3x3s, both of whom will get ovations.nymkfan51 said:It seems to me Joe, that you are just really down on Michelle right now. That's perfectly fine ... certainly you have every right to your opinion. I may just have to skip over your posts about her for awhile
I will sit quiet now and wait for her to skate in the Olys, and hope that I got it all wrong. The Cheesefests and the Nats, are, for me, predictable.
Joe
Joesitz said:
Audiences prefer the skaters who live (or at least train -- and Kostner trains in Germany) in their country, so Americans prefer American skaters and Russians prefer Russian skaters. Kwan's doing (or not doing) the GP will not change her home country. It won't even help introduce her to European audiences, since she got assigned to SA and CoC.
You don't have to sit quietly Joe. 
I can't worry about what kind of ovations she gets. She's been around a long time, and folks get tired of that. Even in the U.S. there are people who are sick of MK and would like her to disappear. Having said that, if she comes back this season with exciting programs, the people will respond. I totally believe that.
I can't worry about what kind of ovations she gets. She's been around a long time, and folks get tired of that. Even in the U.S. there are people who are sick of MK and would like her to disappear. Having said that, if she comes back this season with exciting programs, the people will respond. I totally believe that.
Joesitz said:
Not surprise, and Tiger Woods did not get ovation in Europe either, in fact some European fans stuck out their umbrellas in an attempt to trip him up one time, so...Michelle should learn by now that the more others don't like her, the more they don't wish her success, the more motivated she should be Are you saying that European fans cheer more for Cohen?? I am not surprise either. I have my theory about that..
According to eye witness at Moscow, Kwan received a warmer reception there b/c of what Cohen said about Tarasova at a press conference
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Audiences
It's only natural that skating audiences cheer for the home girls, so to speak. But having said that, I do believe American audiences are the most generous in the world. We tend to applaud great performances regardless of who they are and where they come from i.e. Shen and Zhao. I think this is partly because we have no inferiority complex to begin with, which would make us less inclined to applaud the opposing team, and also because it's just our nature to be giving and generous. I am part Italian background and Italians tend to be open and generous in spirit as well. I expect them to be generous in their applause to all the Olympic competitors.
It's only natural that skating audiences cheer for the home girls, so to speak. But having said that, I do believe American audiences are the most generous in the world. We tend to applaud great performances regardless of who they are and where they come from i.e. Shen and Zhao. I think this is partly because we have no inferiority complex to begin with, which would make us less inclined to applaud the opposing team, and also because it's just our nature to be giving and generous. I am part Italian background and Italians tend to be open and generous in spirit as well. I expect them to be generous in their applause to all the Olympic competitors.
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2003
As a fellow gal with an Italian heritage, I completely agree with this statement. I think Torino is going to have wonderful crowds and audiences for all the Olympic events and I think that they will appreciate good performances from all athletes and not just their own.
I think that the applause given may be related to culture (I have heard, for example, that the Japanese audiences are quieter and more reserved than Americans), but there will always be a preference for the "home country" athletes. All I hope is that the audience doesn't contain the individual idiots (like the streaker in Dortmund or the drunk who yelled "fall" to Sasha in Russia)
