Misha Ge out with Injury from 4CC

[silverfoxes]

Misha isn't trying to do multiple quads per program. I think he would have been happy with one stable quad. So no, this doesn't validate anything Patrick said at all.

If Misha just wanted to be an artist, he could make a very comfortable living doing shows and choreography for other skaters. He wants to compete and be an athlete. Unfortunately injuries happen to virtually every skater, but the quad is just one way to do it. Mikhail Kolyada lost all of last season because he fell on a twizzle & broke his ankle. Ladies and ice dancers get injured without doing quads. This sport can be brutal, for sure. But the quad is not this extra-evil element that destroys every one that tries it. Quads have been around for decades & they are not going away.

Hope he recovers soon!

 

[puremagic]

Oh no! This is very bad news

 

[iluvtodd]

Oh, no! Wishing Misha a full & complete recovery (along with Nathan)!

 

[4everchan]

Patrick, when he came back said clearly that he was going to bring up the level gradually as he was being careful with his body... He has said it all year long...

Actually, if Patrick had been straightforward and said 'I'm not going to train quads because of the risk of injury' then I'd have agreed with him wholeheartedly, and thought, 'good for him for sticking to his guns.'
But I just went back and read the CBC article and injury was NOT mentioned as the main reason he thought quads were becoming 'ridiculous' so his statements do not have anything to do with Misha.

Did anyone call Patrick's skating ridiculous when he was trying to put 2 quads in his programs for the first time? I hope not.
He did fall quite a bit on his way to perfecting the 2 quads he has in his long program and we didn't hear a peep from him during that time about how quads were 'getting ridiculous ' only now that several of the field have surpassed him do we hear this argument. Health reasons, I agree with; lowering skating as a whole? Nope.

If Misha and Jason and Joshua decide that the price of attaining a quad is too high then I think they should be proud of how far they've pushed the sport artistically. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Interspectator]

Patrick, when he came back said clearly that he was going to bring up the level gradually as he was being careful with his body... He has said it all year long...

Misha has also been training his first quad very carefully, As he said in his notice. But he got injured anyway.
Sometimes, it happens like that, or you train a spin carefully and get injured too.

 

[4everchan]

Misha has also been training his first quad very carefully, As he said in his notice. But he got injured anyway.
Sometimes, it happens like that, or you train a spin carefully and get injured too.

Yes. Someone can fall in the shower room like Bouchard did at the US open. The issue though is that quad is riskier.

 

[apgold]

Sorry to hear about Misha - hope he's okay for Worlds.

 

[Interspectator]

Yes. Someone can fall in the shower room like Bouchard did at the US open. The issue though is that quad is riskier.

On this we are agreed. :thumbsup: and in our best wishes to Misha.

 

[Tavi...]

I don't get it. If it's too much stress on the body of one skater than HE shouldn't practice it. If Hanyu or Jin or Fernandez or anyone can train many quads and don't get injuired than it is possible, and it's not quad fault itself but skater/coach who are pushing it over the limit of this skater.
Some skaters can't handle training too many triples. Everyone has their body limits on diffrent level.

Basically what you're saying is if your body can't handle training quads, too bad loser, give up competitive skating. Because given the fact that quad = automatic higher PCS, no quad = no way to make up points = no medal.

 

[HanDomi]

Basically what you're saying is if your body can't handle training quads, too bad loser, give up competitive skating. Because given the fact that quad = automatic higher PCS, no quad = no way to make up points = no medal.

There is only 3 medals. Not everyone will get them.
So what you suggesting here ? Limit quads because some skaters will never get a medal ?

 

[Interspectator]

Basically what you're saying is if your body can't handle training quads, too bad loser, give up competitive skating. Because given the fact that quad = automatic higher PCS, no quad = no way to make up points = no medal.

When the field improves the tech the way it did this year, then having a quad is essential if you want to stand at the TOP of the podium. Other podium placements are still possible without a quad.

It happens to many athletes that their bodies cannot keep up with the demands of their sports.
In previous years when few skaters were even attempting quads it was optional and triples were the requirement. Now all the top guys can do the all the triples and do them pretty well. Should those who can put quads in be told that their hard work and the risk they took isn't going to be rewarded?

Misha actually beat several quad jumpers in PCS AND overall last year at various competitions and at worlds, showing that the system does reward his good skating (Jason's too BTW). BUT, he wanted to go higher...when those placed higher than him had both higher tech scores and good presentation then taking the risk of training a quad jump was what he chose to do in order to be competitive with them.

That is the way sport is supposed to work.

The quad debate used to be the triple debate and before that it used to be the doubles debate no?

Still, there may be some changes in the rules coming after the next Olympics and we will see how the scoring system is revised (or not) to try to maintain the balance between PCS and TES. I would be in total support of more clinical studies into the stresses skating and jumps put on the body and how to improve the training methods and tools to lessen injury. If quads and some dangerous spin positions become regulated in some way for the sake of the athlete's health and safety I'd be interested to see how skating will continue to move forward and define itself as a sport.

 

[Mrs. P]

When the field improves the tech the way it did this year, then having a quad is essential if you want to stand at the TOP of the podium. Other podium placements are still possible without a quad.

It happens to many athletes that their bodies cannot keep up with the demands of their sports.
In previous years when few skaters were even attempting quads it was optional and triples were the requirement. Now all the top guys can do the all the triples and do them pretty well. Should those who can put quads in be told that their hard work and the risk they took isn't going to be rewarded?

Misha actually beat several quad jumpers in PCS AND overall last year at various competitions and at worlds, showing that the system does reward his good skating (Jason's too BTW). BUT, he wanted to go higher...when those placed higher than him had both higher tech scores and good presentation then taking the risk of training a quad jump was what he chose to do in order to be competitive with them.

That is the way sport is supposed to work.

The quad debate used to be the triple debate and before that it used to be the doubles debate no?

Still, there may be some changes in the rules coming after the next Olympics and we will see how the scoring system is revised (or not) to try to maintain the balance between PCS and TES. I would be in total support of more clinical studies into the stresses skating and jumps put on the body and how to improve the training methods and tools to lessen injury. If quads and some dangerous spin positions become regulated in some way for the sake of the athlete's health and safety I'd be interested to see how skating will continue to move forward and define itself as a sport.

This is my view. I think what bothers me about this quad debate is there seems to be extreme views, either -- you need a quad, tough luck that you got injured or quads are the source of all ills.

There needs to be a more nuanced discussion regarding training quads. In addition there needs to be discussion about career sustainability as well in the context of staying competitive.

All that said, if one had to deal with injury, now is not a bad time, better now than next year or the Olympic year.

 

[cruzceleste]

First, hope Misha has a complete and fast recovery.

Misha isn't trying to do multiple quads per program. I think he would have been happy with one stable quad. So no, this doesn't validate anything Patrick said at all.

If Misha just wanted to be an artist, he could make a very comfortable living doing shows and choreography for other skaters. He wants to compete and be an athlete. Unfortunately injuries happen to virtually every skater, but the quad is just one way to do it. Mikhail Kolyada lost all of last season because he fell on a twizzle & broke his ankle. Ladies and ice dancers get injured without doing quads. This sport can be brutal, for sure. But the quad is not this extra-evil element that destroys every one that tries it. Quads have been around for decades & they are not going away.

Hope he recovers soon!

I think this is a very valid point.

In figure skating we see injuries in diferent exercise, not only quads, so to said people is getting injure because of quads if a lot.

In this case is maybe because of Misha´s age, Misha´s weight, maybe wrong technique, maybe just bad luck, who knows... but we can´t limit the development of the sport because some people.

And if a skater doesn´t want to do quads he can perfectly not do so and be done with it, is up to every sportman to decide what to want.

 

[Violet Bliss]

This is my view. I think what bothers me about this quad debate is there seems to be extreme views, either -- you need a quad, tough luck that you got injured or quads are the source of all ills.

There needs to be a more nuanced discussion regarding training quads. In addition there needs to be discussion about career sustainability as well in the context of staying competitive.

All that said, if one had to deal with injury, now is not a bad time, better now than next year or the Olympic year.

I've been advocating equalizing the importance of TES and PCS in scoring, so skaters of different talents can develop their strengths and be competitive without being pressured into risky training beyond their physical limits for what their bodies are not built for.

Over emphasis of quads in their scoring prowess results in diminishing artistry in at least two ways: 1) In the programs themselves as too little time and energy are left for the non quad elements and the performance, and 2) discouragement and injuries of artistic skaters so that fewer of them will be competing/performing during their shortened careers.

 

[Tavi...]

There is only 3 medals. Not everyone will get them.
So what you suggesting here ? Limit quads because some skaters will never get a medal ?

No. I'm suggesting that your point of view is extremely limited and blames the athlete.

 

[HanDomi]

No. I'm suggesting that your point of view is extremely limited and blames the athlete.

Because who is here to blame other than coach/athlete ? They know what they are doing. Some skaters never managed to get quad and they had to accept it
It's hard but that's how it is in sport., but because they are trying it shows they are true sportsman that want to go higher with temselves even with all the risks that goes with it

 

[gsyzf]

I've been advocating equalizing the importance of TES and PCS in scoring, so skaters of different talents can develop their strengths and be competitive without being pressured into risky training beyond their physical limits for what their bodies are not built for.

Over emphasis of quads in their scoring prowess results in diminishing artistry in at least two ways: 1) In the programs themselves as too little time and energy are left for the non quad elements and the performance, and 2) discouragement and injuries of artistic skaters so that fewer of them will be competing/performing during their shortened careers.

But is it fair for the "artistic" skater to be given a pass for taking lower risk, avoiding injury and getting higher reward? Why must the "inartistic" skater suffer injuries in order to earn the score? What is artistry? It's very subjective. Who are we to say that our taste of artistry is superior than others'?

 

[Violet Bliss]

Because who is here to blame other than coach/athlete ? They know what they are doing. Some skaters never managed to get quad and they had to accept it that they can't go further
It's hard but that's how it is in sport.

This is an unique sport with both athlete and artistic aspects. The popularity depends much on the performance with artistry and entertainment value.

As well, many sports are protecting their athletes and youths with new rules regarding equipment, age eligibility, facilities, scoring criteria, etc. Risks need to be managed and should not be left to the eager, sometimes reckless young people and sometimes irresponsible, incompetent, or exploitative adults around them.

 

[Tavi...]

This is my view. I think what bothers me about this quad debate is there seems to be extreme views, either -- you need a quad, tough luck that you got injured or quads are the source of all ills.

There needs to be a more nuanced discussion regarding training quads. In addition there needs to be discussion about career sustainability as well in the context of staying competitive.

All that said, if one had to deal with injury, now is not a bad time, better now than next year or the Olympic year.

Thank you for saying this so clearly. This is exactly what bothers me. I do not think quads are inherently evil. But I dislike the knee jerk reaction that quads are the source of all that is good in the sport and that the consequences of adding more and more quads to a program are irrelevant. So far Yuzu has managed to put forth a brilliant and balanced FS with three quads. But will he be able to achieve the same thing with a four or five quad program? He's an extraordinary skater so maybe he will.

The thing is, if quads are the only way to define progress, at some point, progress will grind to a halt, and then what? The human body has inherent physical limitations. If you've reached them are you no longer engaged in a sport? Do you take PEDs?

 

[el henry]

Having read (and not able to restrain myself from contributing to) numerous posts on the issue, which dominates our men's skating conversation at times, I would like to elaborate on what Tavi has said. ETA: earlier post, did not see most recent one)

1. *Many* posts, here and elsewhere, take at least American male skaters to task for insufficient quad mastery. I am not a good researcher, so I will not look them up, and I am NOT saying it about the posts in this thread. Posts to the effect of, if a skater is not even trying for a quad, it is so unfair that he is placing ahead of skaters with quads. The vitriol directed at Adam, and at the judges at US Nats, not for the tech error, but for failing to recognize the beauty and majesty of four quads:noshake:

I have even read that the US should be *embarassed*, for heaven's sake, for sending a quadless champ to Worlds

2. With all the vitriol and snickering and (IMHO) lame attempts at sarcasm for lack of quads, I don't see how folks can be surprised at injuries. And to say that no one forced a skater to train a quadhwell: Makes no sense in light of the previous comments. I actually do not mind and am impressed by a well executed quad placed in a program where it makes sense with steps and spins and performance. But not at the expense of steps, spins and performance.

One thing I am grateful for, is that Misha does not appear to attract the snickering and sarcasm that Jason and (now) Adam do. Praise be for small favors