More deductions needed for falls

[Proxy]

You go for it because you get the higher score if you hit it.

Bingo.

Remember the time when the quad jumps weren't worth going for?

Who says they weren't worth going for? If the reward is big enough skaters will go for them. If the reward is small, of course they will not take a big risk for a small reward.

If a quad skater loses to a triple skater, they may not see benefit of attempting quads and losing further places. The answer is to go back and work on their presentation and spins and skating skills, to level the playing field and make their higher jump difficulty the deciding factor.

 

[ks777]

Bingo.



Who says they weren't worth going for? If the reward is big enough skaters will go for them. If the reward is small, of course they will not take a big risk for a small reward.

If a quad skater loses to a triple skater, they may not see benefit of attempting quads and losing further places. The answer is to go back and work on their presentation and spins and skating skills, to level the playing field and make their higher jump difficulty the deciding factor.

no. This already happened after Plushenko retired. People were just doing triples because it's safer. We can NOT go back to that again.

 

[anonymoose_au]

no. This already happened after Plushenko retired. People were just doing triples because it's safer. We can NOT go back to that again.

This is true...which is why Plushy kept on been able to come back, which was seriously awesome, but at the same time a kinda sad reflection on terms of figure skating as a sport.

It was like a gymnast from 10 years ago showing up without upping the technical content they used to do and still winning - or almost winning!

(In other news this conversation about quads makes me want to make a t-shirt that says "Don't blame it on Nathan, Don't blame it on Boyang, Don't Blame in on Vincent, Blame it on Plushy" )

 

[Big Deal]

It can save the sport to be able to keep audience's interest.
As I wrote it in some other forum: IF they would changee the choreography of the Ballet "Swan Lake" adding one more rotation of every jumps than every 2nd or 3rd jump would ended by a fall of the ballet dancer, who would buy a ticket to watch it?
Even the best ones in the world seems to be far from being perfect with this "srategy" and people talking abot "those good old days". The athletes of the recent era are much better technically, but they falling around forced to do elements they cannot do perfectly more than 70-80% of the cases. WRONG!

Now we ended up as one of the technically best skaters of all time won his second Olympic gold medal with more than one fall both times!!

EDGE and ROTATION are important, but not the ONLY important things as it seems to be nowdays. (except one case when Sotnikova won Olympic Gold WITHOUT proper edges and rotations!).

HOW A JUMP WITH ROTATION AND WITHOUT LANDING WOULD GIVE 8-10 POINTS TO THE ATHLETES?????

 

[VenusHalley]

I'm not sure on the exact solution, but I do think a fallen jump needs to score less than a successful jump one revolution lower.

A fallen quad should not score higher than a landed triple. Under any circumstances.

this. Or soon we will come to time when ladies events are won by some 15 years old splatting all over on attempted backloaded quads.

I dont th8nk there should be a zero for fall or hands down on fully rotated jump though.

 

[gkelly]

You go for it because you get the higher score if you hit it. I wouldn't say a 3Axel fall deserves less points than a mediocre double axel, and we do see many mediocre double axels from the ladies, but a really good double axel should still be scoring higher.

Agreed.
If the base value of the quad or triple axel, minus the maximum GOE reduction, minus the standard fall deduction, equals less than the base value of a jump with the same takeoff and one revolution lower, that would seem fairest to me.

The best way to achieve that is to make the maximum -GOEs larger for these high-value elements. Is that going to happen with the change to -5 to +5 next year? We'll have to see the details of that change.

Making the -GOEs a strict percentage of the base value, such that a -3 or -5 would subtract at least half the base value, could also work.

(No, don't change the base value if there's a fall. Just subtract a lot in GOE, and also apply a fall deduction. Jumps that are underrotated and also have falls should continue to be worth less than rotated jumps with falls.)

There also might be some value in making the fall deductions a percentage of the TES or TSS rather than just a flat 1.00. That way the guys who are racking up triple-digit TES with lots of quads would lose more for each fall than the guys in the same competition who aren't even attempting double axels. You could make different standard fall deductions for each discipline and for senior vs. junior vs. novice, but it doesn't make sense for the lower ranked skaters at senior B events or even at Euros and 4Cs to be penalized for each fall as if they were also earning base values for quads they aren't ready to attempt yet if ever.

 

[ancientpeas]

Two fears I have about more deductions for falls (which I support in theory)

1. It will stymie the technical progress of the sport. If people are afraid to do quads because the penalty for missing them is too high everyone will play it safe.
2. I hate the the kickem while they are down penalty for more than 2 falls in a program. If the judges were doing their job and not awarding such high marks for mistake filled programs then this never would have been necessary.

 

[GGFan]

I think like the economy the system is one that needs continuous tweaking, so I'll carry on with this stupid analogy.

By 2010 the sport had realized that we were in a depression in terms jump content. They wisely decided to institute stimulus measures to push the men to be more daring.

Well the jump economy has been back and booming for a couple years now and now it's time to undo some of the stimulus measures. The stimulus has led to rampant inflation which in itself is harmful to the sport.

Like ancientpeas and others I believe that they should proceed carefully lest they push things too far in the other direction. But doing nothing is also a choice and is having an effect.

 

[Blushingheart]

Is that true FS program will be 30 seconds shorter?

 

[moriel]

Two fears I have about more deductions for falls (which I support in theory)

1. It will stymie the technical progress of the sport. If people are afraid to do quads because the penalty for missing them is too high everyone will play it safe.
2. I hate the the kickem while they are down penalty for more than 2 falls in a program. If the judges were doing their job and not awarding such high marks for mistake filled programs then this never would have been necessary.

Last but not least, higher penalty for falls would encourage mediocre jump technique if not accompanied of strict calls on UR and prerotation, and proper GOE for messy landings.

Specially considering that the GOE scale will go up to -5 to +5.
Fall would be bad, but a prerotated and borderline UR jump with bad landing could be still rewarded with high GOE.

We already see a lot of this, and with more penalty for falls, skaters would be literally be encouraged to do this.

 

[ancientpeas]

Last but not least, higher penalty for falls would encourage mediocre jump technique if not accompanied of strict calls on UR and prerotation, and proper GOE for messy landings.

Specially considering that the GOE scale will go up to -5 to +5.
Fall would be bad, but a prerotated and borderline UR jump with bad landing could be still rewarded with high GOE.

We already see a lot of this, and with more penalty for falls, skaters would be literally be encouraged to do this.

I agree.
I'm afraid that the increase in GOE will be used to prop up skaters rather that actually award those who have, say, a terrific triple axel or spins that are a cut above or lifts that are jaw dropping.

And I still want to see more points awarded for footwork sequences. My personal pet peeve with how many points jumps get is that it makes concentrating on the rest rather pointless and if your step-sequence, which is a work of art, gets nearly the same marks as a mediocre one then why would you put in the time and energy when you could be getting 15 points for a poorly landed quad-triple.

 

[Ballade88]

In my opinion, a failed jump gets ZERO points. If you can't handle a jump and fall then you didn't 'have' the jump at that moment. Why should someone get credit for something they had no control of? That's the easiest solution, and just adding a bigger GOE spread won't help for the reason I stated above.

I understand this reasoning because a fall means you don't have total mastery of the jump at that moment. While I don't agree that it should get zero points, I think it should definitely not get the full base value even if the judges credit the actual rotations in the air. I also think a fall should have more of an impact on PCS because it is a very visible error and almost always disrupts the flow of the performance. Definitely, in the old-school days of figure skating and gymnastics, a fall was very costly. You can do an otherwise beautiful and difficult routine but that fall would carry great deductions to the final score. It was harsh but it also made more sense to casual viewers. I also think that an athlete who can do a clean routine, as long as the level of difficulty isn't so far off, should be rewarded more for their ability to deliver under pressure.

 

[VenusHalley]

I understand this reasoning because a fall means you don't have total mastery of the jump at that moment. While I don't agree that it should get zero points, I think it should definitely not get the full base value even if the judges credit the actual rotations in the air. I also think a fall should have more of an impact on PCS because it is a very visible error and almost always disrupts the flow of the performance. Definitely, in the old-school days of figure skating and gymnastics, a fall was very costly. You can do an otherwise beautiful and difficult routine but that fall would carry great deductions to the final score. It was harsh but it also made more sense to casual viewers. I also think that an athlete who can do a clean routine, as long as the level of difficulty isn't so far off, should be rewarded more for their ability to deliver under pressure.

I believe there needs to be a balance between encouraging the skaters trying harder and daring elements... while not encouraging stumbling and splatting through program with higher BV.