NYTimes article on the U.S. Ladies

[Spirals for Miles]

Or Olympic champions Tenley Albright, Carol Heiss. Peggy Fleming, Dorothy Hamill, Kristi Yamaguchi, Tara Lipinski and Sarah Hughes, none of whom depended on getting money from the government.

Well, that was then, this is now. (although Davis and White won something just a few years ago). Figure skating ran out of steam in the U.S. somewhere around the beginning of the twenty-first century. Why? Manitou put it most eloquently above: it just did. Nothing to do do with government money -- we never had any to begin with. It is what it is. Go Nathan!

But how many more Olympic champions would there be if others with real talent could get help to continue? How is it fair to those talented children and young adults that their sporting career is determined by their parents' economic status?

 

[college pat]

ALot of the people on this forum has great ideas,
But has anyone of them talked to person that lives in a rural area that was low-moderate income.

i wanted to be a figure skater when i was young. We didn't have the money nor the transportation,
grandma & mom stated to skate on a pond or a small patch of ice. Well that was useless due to it didn't necessarily freeze enough to skate on.
Let alone the boots, blades was no where to be found in the store or even how to get one.

In other words i didn't know back in the 1970's where the skating clubs was/are. they didn't go out in parades, or other types to announce themselves.
i didn't find out until i was older bowling green had one & that is where Scott hamilton went, Seyboldts had Ft. Wayne, it was nice.

How about the local clubs doing more promoting the sport in their local area in small towns, rural, inner city.

You mention the main reason why--Money. if the skaters who medal can't get money, sponsorship how do you expect the promising skaters

1) stay in if don't have money.
2) get involved if don't have money
3) the forum actually discourages people from skating & watching. if they don't want lower income-middle due to financial reasons why should those people watch & support in 2nd.
4) do you even want them.

Does U.S. figure skating actually promote, pass the the best skater , best qualified only the best skater with the financial capability/backing.

which type does the U.S. skater actually gets and skates for country, club, federation. Do we see our very best skaters with talent or skater ones with money & talent>

I am not knocking the one with the money. Congratulations but it makes me wonder if we send our very best talented skater or very best financial back skater with some talent.

 

[concorde]

But how many more Olympic champions would there be if others with real talent could get help to continue? How is it fair to those talented children and young adults that their sporting career is determined by their parents' economic status?

There is actually a second part to that that no one has mentioned. The parents' willingness to make the athlete's training schedule fit into the family routine.

To succeed, a skater needs both.

 

[gkelly]

When I was a teenager, I once overheard a parent ask the coach who owned the rink we skated at ask "What does it take to succeed in this sport? Talent? Hard work?"

His answer was "Money and access to an ice rink."

In reality all are necessary. But there won't be any skating at all if the would-be skater can't get onto the ice.

 

[Mathman]

But how many more Olympic champions would there be if others with real talent could get help to continue? How is it fair to those talented children and young adults that their sporting career is determined by their parents' economic status?

I have wondered what it was like back in the day. Although none of the Olympic champions of the past was poor, they weren't rich, either. Peggy Fleming's mom sewed her costumes by hand. Dorothy Hamill worked as a secretary. (She once said about the Olympics, it was either win the gold medal and become a millionaire or get silver and go back to my job as a secretary.) Michelle Kwan's parents, immigrants from Hong Kong, mortgaged their house to pay for skating lessons for Michelle and her sister.

Kristi Yamaguchi was not poor (her dad was a dentist, her mother was born in a internment camp where the US government rounded up Japanese-Amricans during World War II). Kristi was identified at age nine as a future star and received a lot of help and encouragement from the figure skating establishment throughout her career. Tara and Sarah came from families that were well off financially.

There is actually a second part to that that no one has mentioned. The parents' willingness to make the athlete's training schedule fit into the family routine.

So true. If you pour everything into your skater, what about the other children in the family?

It would certainly be nice to offer greater figure skating exposure and opportunities to families of modest means. But we can also ask, why figure skating? In particular, if we have in mind that the government ought to make a big investment, I think the money would be better spent on, for instance, girls' soccer. Or swimming. Or volleyball. Producing gold medalists in various winter sports is not really that high on the list of National priorities.

 

[jenaj]

All of the reasons given for the US ladies' fall from dominance--money, other sports to compete in, scholarship money, training methods (not centralized), USFSA slow to adapt to IJS--apply equally or more so to men's skating. And add in the perception in the US that skating is a "feminine" sport. Yet despite all that, there is Nathan Chen. Somewhere out there, now or in the future, is a young American girl with the competitive mindset of a Michelle Kwan and the talent of a Gracie Gold. We just have to wait for the cycle to turn because it will.

 

[Manitou]

But how many more Olympic champions would there be if others with real talent could get help to continue? How is it fair to those talented children and young adults that their sporting career is determined by their parents' economic status?

That’s the way the Universe works. It’s not about focusing on every possible individual opportunity, but about large numbers and statistics.
The same in simpler words: Probably there was a potentially talented kid in Pakistan or Chile who just lost her chance of becoming the greatest skater of all time. Because of lack of whatever is necessary to realize this chance. And I am talking not only about the money, but about the entire large context.
You know, the Universe is not revolving around figure skating. Creating a perfect figure skater is not the goal of laws of nature.

 

[MarinHondas]

All of the reasons given for the US ladies fall from dominance--money, other sports to compete in, scholarship money, training methods (not centralized), USFSA slow to adapt to IJS--apply equally or more so to men's skating. And add in the perception in the US that skating is a "feminine" sport. Yet despite all that, there is Nathan Chen. Somewhere out there, now or in the future, is a young American girl with the competitive mindset of a Michelle Kwan and the talent of a Gracie Gold. We just have to wait for the cycle t turn because it will.

Looking at the younger levels at this nationals, I see a definite future in U.S. ladies. Alysa Liu, for one. She backloads 6/7 jumps in FS and 2/3 in short( the two she backloads are 3-3 and 3lz). She’s someone to watch for sure. She’s only 12 and won’t be eligible for the jgp until the 2019 season but she’s looking like someone that could really compete with the top juniors in the world. Indi Cha, who just won the intermediate ladies title, is also a firecracker. I’m not sure how old she is(12?) but she was a great little performer. She has 3f, 3lo, 3sal (and 2a) in her arsenal. Not quite the set that Alysa has but I see lots of potential there. Hope it’s developed. Those were two that stood out to me so far but there were many others! Even some intermediate ladies are now landing 3lz!! The jump bonus USFSA implemented has really helped.

 

[lappo]

I have wondered what it was like back in the day. Although none of the Olympic champions of the past was poor, they weren't rich, either. Peggy Fleming's mom sewed her costumes by hand. Dorothy Hamill worked as a secretary. (She once said about the Olympics, it was either win the gold medal and become a millionaire or get silver and go back to my job as a secretary.) Michelle Kwan's parents, immigrants from Hong Kong, mortgaged their house to pay for skating lessons for Michelle and her sister.

Kristi Yamaguchi was not poor (her dad was a dentist, her mother was born in a internment camp where the US government rounded up Japanese-Amricans during World War II). Kristi was identified at age nine as a future star and received a lot of help and encouragement from the figure skating establishment throughout her career. Tara and Sarah came from families that were well off financially.



So true. If you pour everything into your skater, what about the other children in the family?

It would certainly be nice to offer greater figure skating exposure and opportunities to families of modest means. But we can also ask, why figure skating? In particular, if we have in mind that the government ought to make a big investment, I think the money would be better spent on, for instance, girls' soccer. Or swimming. Or volleyball. Producing gold medalists in various winter sports is not really that high on the list of National priorities.

So true. If you think about it, both the sisters of Hanyu and Fernandez stopped skating at young age in order that their brothers could afford to skate themselves; Yuna Kim sister would have loved to get singing lessons but she couldn't because all the money of her family were put on her sister skating (their mum talks about her feelings about this disparity). It should be acknowledged that behind great skaters there are sometimes siblings who got their dreams and opportunities crushed at young age and that maybe this also bring a sense of guilt and even more pressure on the "talented kid" who got the chance.

 

[Manitou]

Kristi Yamaguchi was not poor (her dad was a dentist, her mother was born in a internment camp where the US government rounded up Japanese-Amricans during World War II). Kristi was identified at age nine as a future star and received a lot of help and encouragement from the figure skating establishment throughout her career. Tara and Sarah came from families that were well off financially.
.

How do you know that Kristi were not more tallented in tennis and if she had used her true potential she would have surpassed Steffi Graf and Serena Williams?
And Tara would have invented a cure for cancer and diabetes if she hadn’t gone to skating?

And now we have the tennis fans and the entire human population lamenting over unfair circumstances that led to that waste of talents.

My point is that there has never been a promise of every chance and opportunity maximized and taken advantage of.

 

[Amei]

But how many more Olympic champions would there be if others with real talent could get help to continue? How is it fair to those talented children and young adults that their sporting career is determined by their parents' economic status?

What's common phrase - Life isn't fair. Things cost money and when people talk about government money you are actually talking about money that they take from someone that works their tail off for that money. And money that is taken from someone that works and earns that money should only be going to improve necessary public life - public transportation, defense, improved education. Its one thing to say a kid doesn't have enough to eat because of economic standards the kid had no control over so the kid is put into a free meal program that is funded by tax dollars, its another to say a kid wants to have a chance to be a top tier athlete in an expensive sport and tax dollars should be given to pursue said dream.

 

[Barb]

I am not knocking the one with the money. Congratulations but it makes me wonder if we send our very best talented skater or very best financial back skater with some talent.

true, but it happens in every sport, even in soccer that is relatively accessible. Do you think that european people have simply more natural talented than african or asian people at soccer, no!!!, they simply got the opportunity. It is not enough to buy a ball.

 

[Jammers]

Looking at the younger levels at this nationals, I see a definite future in U.S. ladies. Alysa Liu, for one. She backloads 6/7 jumps in FS and 2/3 in short( the two she backloads are 3-3 and 3lz). She’s someone to watch for sure. She’s only 12 and won’t be eligible for the jgp until the 2019 season but she’s looking like someone that could really compete with the top juniors in the world. Indi Cha, who just won the intermediate ladies title, is also a firecracker. I’m not sure how old she is(12?) but she was a great little performer. She has 3f, 3lo, 3sal (and 2a) in her arsenal. Not quite the set that Alysa has but I see lots of potential there. Hope it’s developed. Those were two that stood out to me so far but there were many others! Even some intermediate ladies are now landing 3lz!! The jump bonus USFSA implemented has really helped.

I think the future for US ladies is with the girls coming up in the lower levels like Intermediate or someone like Lui who's only 12 but already competing as a Junior. The USFSA has only in the last couple of years started crediting the younger girls with trying some of the harder jumps in the lower levels and it will take a few years for it to show in the results in Seniors but you have to start somewhere. I'm sure a decade ago Russia wasn't thinking they would start dominating ladies and they were worse off then the US is right now.

 

[geige]

Ashley continues to get most of the media attention:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...re-skating-nationals-ashley-wagner/994214001/

Not too sure about this quote: “But, again, the one who almost certainly will be sent to Pyeongchang, barring a complete collapse, will be Wagner, even though she has not skated particularly well so far this season.”

 

[Amei]

Ashley continues to get most of the media attention:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...re-skating-nationals-ashley-wagner/994214001/

Not too sure about this quote: “But, again, the one who almost certainly will be sent to Pyeongchang, barring a complete collapse, will be Wagner, even though she has not skated particularly well so far this season.”

That's because for the 'every 4 years fan' Ashley will be the name they recognize. And I don't disagree with the assumption that unless she completely collapses she will be on the team, we all know with some errors that she can be given PCS bumps to keep her in the top 3. Of the ladies skaters Ashley is the 1 that has been in the most Olympic and USFSA advertising this year (at least that I've seen).

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Ashley continues to get most of the media attention:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...re-skating-nationals-ashley-wagner/994214001/

Not too sure about this quote: “But, again, the one who almost certainly will be sent to Pyeongchang, barring a complete collapse, will be Wagner, even though she has not skated particularly well so far this season.”

I also don't agree with her assumption that Nathan would be the only man doing the team event. That would put him at a disadvantage in the individual event IMO.

 

[college pat]

Chapis

I agree with you to a point.

Asian, European skaters - i didn't claim they was more financially wealthy but due to a different system in how they chose their skaters . They look for , seek out potential future talent skaters. their federation uses a different system where they according to a lot of forum post is those skaters are funded through their federation, where their expenses are paid.

Does those federations possibly lose some of their best skaters yes.


I am mainly focused on the U.S. Skaters basically because of the reasons most of even the U.S. Olympic winners have stated they wouldn't put or tell their children into figure skating sport --finances.

They also told of the toll on the family what their brother, sister, gave up. ex-Peggy mom made her outfits, Kristi's dad, Tara's parents, Nancy family', Dorothy, Evan's, and their parents would be classified as professional to upper middle income.
So if they have a problem with finances in the sport what about the lower income skater/team parents, a truly lower income person one that makes less than $20,000 a year even $30,000? retail worker, laborer, manufacturer, waitress ( ex- Calla urbanski & rocky marval- waitress & truck driver-- even tonya harding- not considered norm for figure skating why her background of low income, single parent.

Why even a lot of U.S. pair teams had to take jobs to support themselves even certain current single skaters that takes time away from training, practice etc

How can they be aid, nutured, helped, transportation & cost through the skating club itself, U.S.F.S.A?

Does the clubs actively & U.S.F.S.A actively seek out different & smaller areas/towns to put rinks in?, tennis courts are in small towns, parks, so are baseball diamonds, makeshift soccer fields to help nuture the sport in lower income area and seek out and promote the sport.



Some of other forum post mentioned other sports like tennis, basketball, gymnastics, skate boarding, they received aid in the form of all paid academy, sponsorship deals at a young age, college, school town, how.
They was spotted , sometimes sought out at a young age and a future talent and given the money, aid, needs, transportation, sponsorship to nuture their talent despite lack of money, income, one parent. etc.---

Yet those sports doesn't seem to be as negative about their child being their sport. Yes, they all state it a financial toll, hardship and We are going to let child choose what sport. Despite our sport was financial hardship, they list the financial hardship and the help they receive

 

[JSM]

Unfortunately, rinks are not cheap and require a lot of staff and maintenance. It's not at all like putting in tennis courts.

In much of the US, rinks exist for hockey (which is the only way they make enough money to stay operational). And they have some public sessions and freestyles on the side.

 

[[email protected]]

I am sure it's a misconception that Russian skaters and their parents are much better off than American because the State pays for everything. Russia is a much poorer country. What is considered to be middle-class in the USA - about $100,000 per year household income - is certainly the upper class in Russia, may be top 5% of the folks. So the middle class in Russia is about 100,000 rbls per month per household which is $20,000 per year.

The difference is that the Russians are ready to suffer for their kids and the kids sometimes are ready to suffer as well. The living conditions, one just cannot compare. We are talking about real sacrifices not some "shattered dreams of other siblings". I wonder if any of the American skater could pull forward a story similar to Maxim Trankov's one:

Что такое школа выживания в Питере, лучше других, думаю, можем рассказать как раз мы с Сашей Смирновым. Что такое жить бомжами. Каково ночевать на трибунах стадиона или в тренерской на катке.
Первые три года толком не тренировался. В Питере у меня была знакомая, которая периодически меня подкармливала, а при необходимости я мог у нее переночевать. На катке мы были знакомы со всеми барменшами и официантками, и они частенько разрешали нам забирать с кухни остатки еды. Во время ночных массовых катаний мы с Сашей за какие-то копейки подрабатывали в гардеробе, а еще нам оставляли в баре пустые бутылки. За неделю этих бутылок набирался целый хоккейный баул, в воскресенье мы шли их сдавать и покупали себе лапшу "Доширак". На этом "Дошираке" жили два года...

What is the school of survival in St. Petersburg, I and Alexander Smirnov can tell better than anyone else. What is it to be homeless, to sleep directly on a stand or in the coaches' room at the rink. The first 3 years I could not train normally. I had an acquaintance who fed me occassionally and sometimes I could sleep at hers. We knew all the waitresses and barmaids at the rink, they often allowed us to take the leftovers from the kitchen. When there was night public skating we worked in the cloakroom for pennies. And we could have empty bottles from the bar. When we had hockey bags full of bottles we brought them for a refund to buy instant noodles Doshirak. This Doshirak was our basic food for 2 years...

Without the State support with the difference in incomes that we have there just would not be any figure skating in Russia.

 

[andromache]

What is the school of survival in St. Petersburg, I and Alexander Smirnov can tell better than anyone else. What is it to be homeless, to sleep directly on a stand or in the coaches' room at the rink. The first 3 years I could not train normally. I had an acquaintance who fed me occassionally and sometimes I could sleep at hers. We knew all the waitresses and barmaids at the rink, they often allowed us to take the leftovers from the kitchen. When there was night public skating we worked in the cloakroom for pennies. And we could have empty bottles from the bar. When we had hockey bags full of bottles we brought them for a refund to buy instant noodles Doshirak. This Doshirak was our basic food for 2 years...

To be fair, coaching/ice time is extremely expensive in the US; I imagine it is cheaper in Russia, no matter who is paying for it.

(I haven't read the entire thread, but I imagine no one thinks that Russian skaters and their families are living in luxury - the state support, however, is one motivator for kids and parents suffering for the sport. It means that anyone of talent, no matter how poor, can still skate.)

Sport is just very culturally different between the US and Russia. In the US, suffering for the sake of sport is considered by most to be stupid and irresponsible. Why waste your $$$ when there is only a .01% chance you will ever go to the Olympics? It is considered to be bad parenting and neglect if you can't afford groceries but can afford skating lessons for your kid. Not being able to afford housing but spending money on ice time? Ridiculously irresponsible.

Sacrifices of such an extreme level for pursuing sport are just not considered acceptable in US culture. Instead, the emphasis is on making sacrifices to attain an education, because theoretically you're more likely to succeed at getting a decent-paying job with a college degree than you are to do so with a sport.