Patrick Chan Landing the Quad

[jennylovskt]

I can never settle on an Olympic champion without a quad. It is just not right. Even he has less transitions, a champion must have at least a quad. That's just my thought.

 

[bekalc]

I can never settle on an Olympic champion without a quad. It is just not right.

But if the quad guys don't skate well than what can be done? Should we ignore the fact that Joubert fell and had trouble with his triple axel at last years worlds? Or that Tomas doubled his last two big triples?

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I can never settle on an Olympic champion without a quad. It is just not right. Even he has less transitions, a champion must have at least a quad. That's just my thought.

Agree to disagree, I guess. To me, that's stating something like Timothy Goebbel, at his best, would deserve to beat Jeffrey Buttle/Patrick Chan (to use quadless medalists of late) at their best, and I much prefer the latter two.

 

[oxade21]

I can never settle on an Olympic champion without a quad. It is just not right. Even he has less transitions, a champion must have at least a quad. That's just my thought.

Don't you worry. There won't be one in Vancouver. Plushy won't let that happen.

Honestly though, it is sad that we need three skaters to come back to make sure the ballerinas don't win.

 

[Buttercup]

Joubert said that only Lysacek was his competition before worlds because of the quad (which still bugs me).

I think that misrepresents what he said - as I recall it, Joubert merely referred to Lysacek as the most dangerous or something like that, and Hersh added that Brian accords him special respect because he tries quads. But really, if it were just about the quad, Joubert could have named another skater, because Lysacek is iffy with it anyway. Maybe Brian just recognized - correctly, as it turns out - that Evan is a very cosistent performer at Worlds (now at 3 medals in 4 appearances, IIRC) and had been making steady progress throughout the 2008-9 season. Lysacek medalled at every event he entered in 2008-9, didn't he? Plushenko also picked him for the podium prior to Worlds.

While it's often used to prop Chan up, do you think it's false? Or more accurately, do you think that the jump content we associate with Joubert, Yagudin or Plushenko (quads, axels, etc) can be performed with the level of transitions/footwork/spins required nowadays? Plushenko, as someone stated, always got high scores for his transitions, but would he score as highly now?

Oh, it's not about Chan, it's just that the endless discussion of transitions is annoying me . Transitions are just one of the program components and my point is that people have taken to viewing it as the main criterion for judging performances. I'm constantly reading about programs that have no transitions, have great transitions, skaters who need to do more transitions, etc, etc. Meanwhile I don't see the same attention being paid to skating skills, or interpretation (the latter is difficult because it's more subjective). And while I don't want to see empty programs, skating isn't just about who can pack in the most transitions. It's about the complete performance.

Jeffrey Buttle didn't win Worlds because he had more transitions than everyone else, he won Worlds because he skated two performances that worked on every level. While there was no quad, everything else was difficult and performed very well. In the case of Patrick Chan (because he is the subject of this thread ) I don't feel he's at that level yet in terms of expressing music, as a performer, and with his jump consistency.

Looking at past champions, it's hard to say how they might have adapted to CoP. Plushenko, of course, managed just fine. Ilia Kulik had difficult jump entries and lots of in between moves and was still landing top-notch jump content, so I imagine he'd have had no problems. Yags would be a question mark because of his hip problems, it's possible that doing CoP programs would have cut his career short to an even greater extent than it was. Of course it's hard to do the most difficult jumps when you're constantly putting an effort into the rest of your skating, but it's not impossible. This is what separates good skaters from great ones.

 

[Jaana]

And I am also amazed, and not in a good way, by the amount of articles about Chan that talk non-stop about how great he is, how superior his skating is, how intricate his choreography, how fantastic his transitions, how brilliant his spins (that to me are only above average, not even half as good as e.g. Abbott's or back then Buttle's spins) how cute and normal and what a great person he is. It all sounds like propaganda. At some point people will believe it.

I think all that hype is understandable, because the Olympics are in Canada and the hopes for a Canadian male singles skater to win the Olympic gold medal are really high. I don´t think all that will influence the judges, since there will be judges from various countries. Besides, the hopes were very high for 1988 Olympics and also for 1996 Worlds. Stojko was a competitor with great mental strength, but even for him the hype was too much in 1996.... It is an advantage to have a huge home support, but all the hype and hope can be of huge disadvantage as a skater will have huge extra pressure from all that.

I can never settle on an Olympic champion without a quad. It is just not right. Even he has less transitions, a champion must have at least a quad. That's just my thought.

I disagree. In my opinion the winner must in general sense skate better than his competitors did and to do it, does not necessarily need to include a quad, in my opinion. If a skater has a successful quad and also in other areas skates better than the rest, that is of course great and she/he will be a champion.

 

[iluvtodd]

In my opinion the winner must in general sense skate better than his competitors did and to do it, does not necessarily need to include a quad, in my opinion. If a skater has a successful quad and also in other areas skates better than the rest, that is of course great and she/he will be a champion.

Thank you! I couldn't have stated it better or more tactfully. :agree:

 

[merrybari]

I might be able to become a fan of his skating, but I am definitely not a fan of his mouth.

He must have forgotten that Plushenko, Lambiel, and Takahashi are coming back. Evan Lysacek is not a front runner.

I agree his mouth does run away with him sometimes. Part of that is youth, imo, and the lack of experience that comes with it. I read that at one of the Canadian training camps there was a session "Media 101" or something like that where he is "training" to think before he speaks.

I also think the nature of the question may have led to the response of his primary competitors - also based on results at Worlds 2009 where indeed they - Evan and Brian - were exactly that.

Just because Plushenko and Lambiel are coming back doesn't automatically put them on the podium - they have to earn it like the rest. Same for Takahashi - great though he was and as well as his recovery seems to be going, I'll wait for the GP to see how he does in actual competition. Of course all of them are a force, but not necessarily any better than any others in the pack.

Finally I don't understand how you can say Evan is not a front runner. He did, as one poster mentioned, medal at ALL his 2008-09 season's events, showing improvement every time, he has been on the world podium 3 of the 4 times he's competed there, this last one on top! AND is one of the most consistent and best trained skaters out there. His competitors know he is a force to be reckoned with and never count him out. I sure don't either. I say, imo, his chances are as good as any and better than most. It all depends on who brings their A-game to the ice when it counts. My eyes are on Evan to do exactly that.

One thing we can all agree on, I think, is that the men's competition this Olympic season will be amazing and nailbiting. On any given day, in this very deep international field, just about anyone can take home the prize. I can't wait for the season to start so we can stop speculating. Bring it on!!

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Don't you worry. There won't be one in Vancouver. Plushy won't let that happen.

Honestly though, it is sad that we need three skaters to come back to make sure the ballerinas don't win.

Other than Chan, who else would you consider ballerinas and are threats to win?

Buttercup, fair enough. I need to find the comment that I read because I assumed, based on Chan's response (ouch, I know) that Joubert had privileged the quad above all else in his statement, and given evidence to the contrary, I was surprised.

That said, aren't the reigning medalists usually the main threats for Olympic medals? The podium is rarely the exact same, admittedly. Those who come back after injury (Takahashi, Lambiel) or multiple seasons not competing (Plushenko) are rarely the biggest threats - hell, I think it's overstating things to assume they need it.

 

[jennylovskt]

But if the quad guys don't skate well than what can be done? Should we ignore the fact that Joubert fell and had trouble with his triple axel at last years worlds? Or that Tomas doubled his last two big triples?

Two things that I'd like to say. First, this is why that I was leanning on Joubert on increasing the value of quad jumps (I mean increasing more than current value it has). Second, I did not say that Lysacek was not a rightful winner in the last World. However, Joubert would have had that gold if he hadn't had that fall on the double axel at the end. It didn't matter if he had a shaky 3 axel. That was a sad competition which I cannot accept for the Olympics. Luckily, the chances of happening it again is so slim.

Agree to disagree, I guess. To me, that's stating something like Timothy Goebbel, at his best, would deserve to beat Jeffrey Buttle/Patrick Chan (to use quadless medalists of late) at their best, and I much prefer the latter two.

You took the idea and stretched to the other end. I didn't know that Timothy Goebel had transitions.

...we don't know how the question was phrased, and he may have been asked specifically about the people who skated in 2009.

That is possible.

Just because Plushenko and Lambiel are coming back doesn't automatically put them on the podium - they have to earn it like the rest. Same for Takahashi - great though he was and as well as his recovery seems to be going,...

This applies to everyone. But I think the come-back bunch are all serious contenders, and have great chance on landing on the podium.

Finally I don't understand how you can say Evan is not a front runner. He did, as one poster mentioned, medal at ALL his 2008-09 season's events, showing improvement every time, he has been on the world podium 3 of the 4 times he's competed there, this last one on top! AND is one of the most consistent and best trained skaters out there. His competitors know he is a force to be reckoned with and never count him out. I sure don't either. I say, imo, his chances are as good as any and better than most. It all depends on who brings their A-game to the ice when it counts. My eyes are on Evan to do exactly that.

I agree that he is consistent and that is his strenghth, but I am not sure about "best trained". Look at all the three Worlds that he medaled, which one was the one that he won in a strong field? Probably the 2006 World was the only good one where he won bronze. The podium has only three spots. If it had six, I would definitely say that he is a front runner for a medal.

Don't you worry. There won't be one in Vancouver. Plushy won't let that happen.

Honestly though, it is sad that we need three skaters to come back to make sure the ballerinas don't win.

Thank God!

 

[seniorita]

to be fair, he has referred in other interviews to other athletes rather than only Evan and Joub, in recent interview he referred to Plush as well,
"I'm excited to maybe compete against him," Chan said. "I always watched him on TV. My family always talked about him, about how hard he must have worked. To see him in person, maybe skate with him, would be so cool. I've never met him in my life."

 

[merrybari]

I agree that he is consistent and that is his strenghth, but I am not sure about "best trained". Look at all the three Worlds that he medaled, which one was the one that he won in a strong field? Probably the 2006 World was the only good one where he won bronze. The podium has only three spots. If it had six, I would definitely say that he is a front runner for a medal.

Are you saying it was NOT a strong field in 2009 Worlds? I must disagree. The international field in men's skating is the strongest it has been, imo, despite the absence of the returnees, who have much to prove - again, imo - after having missed several seasons. The past is past - it's what they can do NOW that counts. Remains to be seen what that is until the season begins.

Also, Jourbert's failure to win the gold was not solely the result of the fall on that last axel. His PCS scores were not as high as Chan's or Evan's which I believe was a greater contributing factor than that fall. He looked lost on the ice and said afterward he'd made a big mistake when he/they decided to change the program plan 10 minutes before taking the ice.

 

[bekalc]

Also, Jourbert's failure to win the gold was not solely the result of the fall on that last axel. His PCS scores were not as high as Chan's or Evan's which I believe was a greater contributing factor than that fall. He looked lost on the ice and said afterward he'd made a big mistake when he/they decided to change the program plan 10 minutes before taking the ice.

I wouldn't assume that Joubert's PCS wouldn't have gone up if he hadn't fallen. I bet they would have. Plus it messed up his final spins too and he could have had extra GOE on the double axel. AT the very least Joubert would have had silver over Chan,.

 

[psycho]

Finally I don't understand how you can say Evan is not a front runner. He did, as one poster mentioned, medal at ALL his 2008-09 season's events, showing improvement every time,

While I agree with you that saying that the current world champ is not a front-runner is ridiculous (come on folks!), it always amuses me how Evan fans like to pretend he had a great 08-09 season. He didn't. In fact, at the end of January, it was looking really bleak for the poor guy. He blew 2 GPs, for which he was considered a shoo-in for gold (maybe not SA, but at least a silver was supposed to be his). Then he didn't even qualify for GPF! Then, he managed to lose nationals to a flawed Abbott and freaking Mroz (poor Evan, I would be traumatized). Yes, he turned it around and kicked *** at 4CC and Worlds, but I don't think last season is the best example to use to illustrate Evan's consistency and domination. He's just as unpredictable as the rest of them.

As for the people saying Lambiel is more of a front-runner than the current world champ, give me a break folks! I love Stephane, but he hasn't been training most of the summer and apparently just recently went on vacation. If you expect him to be in any kind of fighting shape, I think you're in for a big surprise.
Of all the returnees, the biggest threat is Takahashi, if his knee holds up. Plushenko is still a wildcard , no matter how much he's overscored at some Russian event. And Stephane, well, I think he's the weakest link right now.

Are you saying it was NOT a strong field in 2009 Worlds? .

It was the weakest field we had in years! The only real threat to Evan was Joubert and Verner, who is mind-numbingly inconsistent. Oh and Chan with his Canadian passport.
Compare that to the kind of people at previous worlds: Joubert, Lambiel, Takahashi, Buttle , Weir...

 

[seniorita]

Of all the returnees, the biggest threat is Takahashi, if his knee holds up. Plushenko is still a wildcard , no matter how much he's overscored at some Russian event. And Stephane, well, I think he's the weakest link right now.

not that I disagree with Plush being an unpredictable comeback, I just wonder how do you know he was much overscored since nobody has seen his programs he skated there..:think:
Lambiel went on vacations??Isn't he in Canada training?

 

[psycho]

not that I disagree with Plush being an unpredictable comeback, I just wonder how do you know he was much overscored since nobody has seen his programs he skated there..:think:
Lambiel went on vacations??Isn't he in Canada training?

His biggest fans said that although jumps were good, the performance wasn't much and the program was empty yet he was getting 8.9 for PCS? The fact that he scored 95 for a SP where he got through the jumps but phoned in performance?

I don't hate Plushy. I kinda even root for him. Better him than Chan, by far. But even he said he was overscored.

From Stephane's website:

although August was already a pretty busy month for him. Stephane followed a training camp in Toronto with galas in Korea, before allowing himself a week’s holiday in order to be at his best to tackle his return to competition.

That's some hardcore Olympic preparation right there. I tease because I love.

 

[seniorita]

His biggest fans said that although jumps were good, the performance wasn't much

I m not Plushy biggest fan? who stole my thunder?
Russian skating forum said nothing about an empty program, neither his official forum, I read quite good things, especially for sp, I just havent heard of it so I was just curious...maybe I was lost in google translation...
Jumps only good?he even impressed Ant

And thats why we should have a Stephan thread cause I miss stuff!

 

[jennylovskt]

he even impressed Ant

And that means a lot.

And thats why we should have a Stephan thread cause I miss stuff!

And Joubert thread.

OT: Oh, my, if we take out all the posts from Plushenko thread and put into relavent threads, Plushenko thread might lose 200 posts. Well, even though Plushenko thread "over scored" at GS, it is still the gold winner without the irrelavent so far.

 

[psycho]

I m not Plushy biggest fan? who stole my thunder?
Russian skating forum said nothing about an empty program, neither his official forum, I read quite good things, especially for sp, I just havent heard of it so I was just curious...maybe I was lost in google translation...
Jumps only good?he even impressed Ant

And thats why we should have a Stephan thread cause I miss stuff!

http://starsonice.ipb.su/index.php?showtopic=2210&st=75 Post by mar adentro

 

[seniorita]

I read it he talks ok about all jumps and circular, and second part of tango that was rather empty and he didnt like the straight, but.. this is Lp description and not Sp where he was scored high, and he added

But powerful, take off my hat.

rest in plushy thread cause we are out of subject here