Phil Hersh on the season so far

[Purv]

If Evgenia makes mistakes, she goes home and practices so that mistake will never happen again.

Are you sure?

Costner is little overscored.But why judges "killed" Asada with their scores? Why shouldn they gave her higher PCS as Carolin's?She wasnt worth them? She retired for 1 year..and they gave her to understand that she shouldnt be coming back

 

[TontoK]

I agree that the USFSA wants Vincent. I think if they had their druthers they would go with Chen, Zhou and Brown. The skaters still have to earn it, though.

IMHO the United Sates has gone through a long period where we championed smooth operators like Jeremy Abbott and Adam Rippon, while trying to push the narrative that "artists" can compete even without quads. I think this time around they have been jerked into the real world and realize that without an arsenal of quads you are not going to win a championship, while if you do enough quads you might medal even if you don't have much else.

USFSA probably felt it could afford to go with the artistry approach. Really, before last year, how many skaters were doing multiple quads? Remember Javi won in Boston with an astounding THREE quads in the long program. A toe and two sals. It was technically groundbreaking program.

I think the quad revolution caught US by surprise. Look how many skaters worldwide are delivering multiple quads in early competitions. And it's not just the usual suspects from the usual countries. What will the landscape be by US Nationals?

The winners of big championships will be determined the way they usually are. The best technical skaters will be the contenders. The one among them who skates the cleanest and with the most artistry will win. Great artistic skaters without the technical chops will be ranked in a middle group.

 

[skatingfan4ever]

Here you go ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tPJiIUVtSs

And here is "Part 1." Here you get a glimpse at Mr. Colson's perception of and attitude toward figure skating in his own words. Plus, you get to see adorable young Chiddy training with him, not to mention Chiddy doing a double axel! (His Axel technique looks much more secure these days, but still). Mr. Colson planted the seeds of Patrick's greatness! Detail-oriented viewers will notice that the quote on my profile comes from this video. Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPyhhf6pinY

 

[karne]

But why judges "killed" Asada with their scores? Why shouldn they gave her higher PCS as Carolin's?She wasnt worth them? She retired for 1 year..and they gave her to understand that she shouldnt be coming back

Doing doubles killed her scores more than anything else.

I think the quad revolution caught US by surprise. Look how many skaters worldwide are delivering multiple quads in early competitions. And it's not just the usual suspects from the usual countries. What will the landscape be by US Nationals?

No, it didn't. All the way back in 2013 they were saying their men needed quads. And then suddenly they had Max, and whoops, nope, we want artists instead, it's not all about the quads. Okay, fine, dandy...HEY LOOK SHINY NEW TOY IT'S ALL ABOUT THE QUADS AGAIN.

 

[shine]

Doing doubles killed her scores more than anything else.



No, it didn't. All the way back in 2013 they were saying their men needed quads. And then suddenly they had Max, and whoops, nope, we want artists instead, it's not all about the quads. Okay, fine, dandy...HEY LOOK SHINY NEW TOY IT'S ALL ABOUT THE QUADS AGAIN.

So why exactly do you think the USFS favour the "shiny new toys" over Max when they are both quadsters?

 

[mrrice]

So why exactly do you think the USFS favour the "shiny new toys" over Max when they are both quadsters?

IMO, before 2016, Max was packaged as a jumping hockey player. He still won the Championships in 2013. However, it was 2016 where I think the judges lowballed his component mark in the LP. I love Adam but, IMO, that event belonged to Max. I won't dwell on the past and the way that Max is looking this season, I think he'll be going to the Games along with Nathan and a skater to be named later. The US has so many talented veterans and they also have Vincent Zhou and couple of other Men who are capable of landing quads.

 

[TontoK]

No, it didn't. All the way back in 2013 they were saying their men needed quads. And then suddenly they had Max, and whoops, nope, we want artists instead, it's not all about the quads. Okay, fine, dandy...HEY LOOK SHINY NEW TOY IT'S ALL ABOUT THE QUADS AGAIN.

Look, I'm with you in agreement on Max. I'm not your enemy on this.

My point was exactly what you're getting to, I think. When they had a skater like Max who was really pushing technical boundaries in the US, they didn't appreciate him and he wasn't rewarded sufficiently. In my opinion, of course.

Instead, they rewarded less-athletic artists by utilizing lax Tech Calls and throwing ridiculous GOE to artificially bridge the gap. In my opinion, of course.

They did our federation no favors then. How many years has it been since Max won Nationals? And only in the last season have skaters emerged that could compete with him in jumps. That's because USFSA sent clear signals that they would overtly favor artistic skaters with lesser technical abilities, so they didn't develop those technical abilities. Meanwhile, the rest of the world got with the program. In my opinion.

It's not about a shiny new toy.

 

[Mathman]

IMO, before 2016, Max was packaged as a jumping hockey player....

I think you hit the nail on the head with respect to how the USFSA viewed Max.

Still does, to some extent.

 

[ice coverage]

IMO, before 2016, Max was packaged as a jumping hockey player. He still won the Championships in 2013. ...

I think you hit the nail on the head with respect to how the USFSA viewed Max.

Still does, to some extent.

But I don't think how a skater is packaged is necessarily the same thing as how USFS viewed/views a skater.

IMO, it was 2013-14 when Max's packaging started moving away from the jumping hockey player. First season after winning Nats. YMMV.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I definitely agree with Carolina's scoring. Her PCS reflects how she skated in 2014, but she is noticeably slower across the ice now.

 

[el henry]

The USFS “favored” skaters of lesser technical ability, that put the USA somehow out of sync with international judging?

Horsefeathers

The USFS is in control only of assigning judges at Nats, right? So, in 2015, when Jason skated superior programs, he was rightfully scored highly for those beautiful programs, and was the National champ. The USFS was so far out of sync with the international community that Jason finished fourth at Worlds. Not exactly out of touch. (here is where jump lovers love to come in and go, oh, but dearie dearie me, he never came near the podium). But that’s not the point, the point is, did USFS “promote” (as far as I can tell, that means give scores at Nats) someone far above how international judges would score them? No, they did not.

2016: I loved Adams programs that year, and he actually had programs that year, as opposed to jump a little, skate a little, jump a little more Nathan Chen. I am deliberately not addressing Max, because that won’t affect my point. The Worlds team that year was originally Adam, Max and Nathan. So exactly how was naming that team giving the wrong message, promoting the wrong skaters, and out of sync with the international skating judging? Well, once again, it was not. And Nathan injured himself, to be replaced by Grant Hochstein. And the US men finished three in the top ten.

Same point with 2017 team: Nathan the wunderkind and Jason. Jason scored a plus 90 PB from the International judges for his gasp, quadless, SP, so clearly the USFS was not ignoring international judging by sending him. And I don’t think anyone would argue against sending Nathan. So, 6th and 7th for the US of A, hardly a stinging rebuke to the USFS judging.

PH may think the only point of skating is medals, medals, medals for the Red, White and Blue. I don’t have that mindset, so I can’t really address it. A top ten finish at Worlds is indeed an achievement; I've lived too long on this earth to think that winning really is the only thing. And I certainly have no problem with anyone enjoying the skaters they enjoy. That’s the whole point, isn’t it?

But so far, USFS judgments and international judges judgments have been pretty much in sync.:yes:

 

[TontoK]

El, my good friend and favorite arguing partner, you are missing my point.

While USFSA was putting all their eggs in less-athletic skaters' baskets, the rest of world was investing in technical prowess. True, we held our own for a while, but there is no way that could last.

The number of skaters who have landed quads already this season is astonishing. I don't remember seeing so many in earlier years in summer comps. I think that by US Nationals, it will be fairly routine for the top groups of international skaters to have 2 quads in the short and three or more in the long.

Will all of them hit? No. But will NONE of them hit? Also no. We're going to have to go after them - and there are a lot of them. Yes, from Russia and Japan and Canada- we expect that. But now also from Australia and Georgia and Ukraine and... you get the idea. There are a LOT of them.

How many US men do you think can even hope to stand their ground technically on the international championship stage?

At this point, I count three: Nathan, Vincent, and Max. And, as always, I say that's subject to change as the season progresses. But, someone has to show me something on competitive ice, not just talk about it or tweet edited practice videos.

And I know you won't see it this way, but all the pretty spins in the world aren't going to be much help when you start the competition at a 6-7 quad deficit. The math just doesn't work. It's not like the athletic skaters are incapable of delivering excellent PCS.

And if USFSA doesn't have, as a goal, the winning of medals, then they should all resign at one time. The competitive development of skaters and the winning of medals or maximizing placements should be a top priority for a major federation managing skaters at this level.

That turned into a rant, and I didn't mean it to. Sorry about that, but I'm not editing it. I think the points are valid, even if my frustrations have run on a bit.

 

[Jammers]

El, my good friend and favorite arguing partner, you are missing my point.

While USFSA was putting all their eggs in less-athletic skaters' baskets, the rest of world was investing in technical prowess. True, we held our own for a while, but there is no way that could last.

The number of skaters who have landed quads already this season is astonishing. I don't remember seeing so many in earlier years in summer comps. I think that by US Nationals, it will be fairly routine for the top groups of international skaters to have 2 quads in the short and three or more in the long.

Will all of them hit? No. But will NONE of them hit? Also no. We're going to have to go after them - and there are a lot of them. Yes, from Russia and Japan and Canada- we expect that. But now also from Australia and Georgia and Ukraine and... you get the idea. There are a LOT of them.

How many US men do you think can even hope to stand their ground technically on the international championship stage?

At this point, I count three: Nathan, Vincent, and Max. And, as always, I say that's subject to change as the season progresses. But, someone has to show me something on competitive ice, not just talk about it or tweet edited practice videos.

And I know you won't see it this way, but all the pretty spins in the world aren't going to be much help when you start the competition at a 6-7 quad deficit. The math just doesn't work. It's not like the athletic skaters are incapable of delivering excellent PCS.

And if USFSA doesn't have, as a goal, the winning of medals, then they should all resign at one time. The competitive development of skaters and the winning of medals or maximizing placements should be a top priority for a major federation managing skaters at this level.

That turned into a rant, and I didn't mean it to. Sorry about that, but I'm not editing it. I think the points are valid, even if my frustrations have run on a bit.

Seems to me the US has the most depth in Men's right now and the US men coming up now are all are doing quads which really started with Nathan and continuing with Vincent because these young skaters saw where the sport was going. It's true that for too long US men weren't pushing themselves technically but that's over now as Nathan and Vincent have show with their success. If Nathan and Vincent keep skating past 2018 the US will have two men who will be contenders for years to come who can do multiple quads and which other country can say that? Japan has Hanyu and Uno and that's it and Hanyu may retire Canada has Patrick but no one else right now and Russia has decent skaters who have quads who seem to always meltdown.

 

[ice coverage]

... PH may think the only point of skating is medals, medals, medals for the Red, White and Blue. I don’t have that mindset, so I can’t really address it. ...

Phil Hersh does not have that mindset either, IMO. For example:

Philip Hersh‏ @olyphil

Misha Ge is gloriously lyrical. I could watch him do nothing but crossovers for 4 minutes
7:15 PM - 23 Sep 2017
https://twitter.com/olyphil/status/911776176397529088​

Meanwhile, as a journalist, Phil covers the sport of competitive figure skating -- and one of the points (not the only point) of competition is medals.

If you are rolling your eyes at the word "sport," I will pose some rhetorical questions:

IIRC, you have mentioned that you are a football fan. (Or at least that you have watched a lot of NFL games.)

Surely the headline of a post-game article typically would be which team won or lost the game?
Mind you, I am not excluding the possibility of a sub-headline that players on the losing team were glorious in defeat (either individually or collectively).

And surely pre-season or pre-game preview articles most often include discussion of a team's chances of winning game(s)? (Or advancing to the playoffs or reaching the Super Bowl or ...) Even if the same articles include also discussion of individuals and/or teams who -- win or lose -- consistently are exciting to watch.​

Does not bother me that at the same time that Phil loves watching skaters regardless of their prospects for the podium, he is conscious of medals and [ETA: potentially] high-scoring elements.
(The tweets below are from the time of Finlandia. In the context of Twitter brevity, I think it is obvious that Phil is thinking about how the skaters would fare in the future at Olympics or Worlds [and not Challengers or GPs, although they too are international comps].)

Philip Hersh‏ @olyphil

Could watch Adam Rippon spin all day, but he, like Jason Brown, a non-factor internationally without quad(s)
6:23 AM - 6 Oct 2017
https://twitter.com/olyphil/status/916292921636392961​

Philip Hersh‏ @olyphil

No matter how much one likes skating of an Adam Rippon, Jason Brown or Misha Ge - I love to watch all 3 - they are non-contenders w/o quad
10:39 AM - 7 Oct 2017
https://twitter.com/olyphil/status/916719652184739840​

 

[TMC]

Funny you should mention football, ice. That's true that from a news POV, winning/losing is what headlines are made of. For myself, I've never cared about who wins when I watch football (soccer that is). I watch it purely for the pleasure of seeing the beautiful game in action. And Germany always wins anyway

If I cheer for a team and they win through sheer luck while playing otherwise awfully, I'm not happy. In fact, I care even less about who wins in football than in figure skating. I may not remember which team got into the final, but I will remember excellent plays/goals/saves (Tim Howard against Belgium at the 2014 World Cup forever etched in my mind).

I don't think Phil's mindset is necessarily all about the medals, but as a journalist I can understand why he wants to keep up an appearance of impartiality and how waxing lyrical about a middle-of-the-pack skater's artistic qualities too much might make him seem less objective than he'd like to seem. That's why it's easier to talk about medals and medal chances. And how much can you write about how beautiful someone's spirals are before you have to bring up podium chances just to make up your required word count?

 

[Mrs. P]

I'll make all these points before I make my point.
* Yes, Jason doesn't have a quad at the moment
* Yes, that makes him unlikely to medal at the big competitions as of now.
* Yes, he probably knows that, hence him working on the quad.

All that said, I feel like Jason gets misplaced as JUST/ONLY a "artistic skater whose skating is lovely to watch." Yes, while that is also true, I think there's quite a bit of nuance that is missing when you place him in the "fan favorites category."

As far as the judges are concerned, HE is not just nice to watch, he is top class in artistry and in basic skating skills. At Worlds last year, he had the fifth highest PCS score in the FS, beating both Boyang and Nathan. At Lombardia, he was within 1 point in PCS of Shoma's 5-quad FS, and even overtook him in a few categories.

I suppose you can argue that USFS politicking helped him get some of that, but he's still getting these scores despite 1.) Not being USA No. 1 since 2015 and 2.) Being out for an entire year and having several bad competitions this past season due to injury and 3.) Not having a quad to give that extra PCS boost -- that's why it took him a few years to go from 75-90 as opposed to Nathan's PCS scores increasing by about 10 points in a single season.

And yes, he doesn't have the quad, but his other technical elements are solid, even that 3A that had given him fits for years. There's no doubt he takes longer to master the jumps than other skaters (he had a UR triple loop at Novice while Joshua Farris was doing 3-3s with lutzes and flips), but once he has them, he can pull out +2s and even +3...and this is internationally, no US National judging required.

Yes BV is the easiest way to boost your score, but Jason's longtail strategy, which has existed probably as long as he been skating, is what keeps him within distance while he works on the quads. As Christina Gao's famous SP song states, he may remain "Close without Touching", but it's not insurmountable for him to get past the "fan favorite/lovely to watch" category into a true all-around world contender.

ETA: I will add that I'm not so naive to say that he did not receive some benefit from USFS promoting him or being from a big power skating country. I'm sure if he was from a smaller European or Asian country he might not be getting those scores. But that's a bit of a strawman argument.

ETA2: Since this is about Phil Hersh's article, I think the he is doing his job. While i wish he would maybe dig a little bit deeper in some aspects (like the point I made above), I don't find any of his points that objectionable. I do think that a U.S. medal (other than the team event) is not guaranteed simply cause, to our benefit, the fields internationally are so deep right now. I think men and dance are our best prospects, but not guaranteed.

 

[Sackie]

I am shocked by his take on the USA proposed results at the Olympics! I think the USA at this point is the # 1 contender for the team gold! I also can see them medalling in Dance for sure and probably men's as well and also have a good shot in the ladies.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

If by a good shot in ladies, you mean Nagasu, then I agree. Otherwise, I don't think they have a ladies chance. Team, dance, and men, yes they have a chance there.

 

[Mathman]

Surely the headline of a post-game article (about American football) typically would be which team won or lost the game?

Or it might be about how many players knelt for the national anthem. :yes:

 

[skylark]

as opposed to jump a little, skate a little, jump a little more Nathan Chen.

It's no more fair, and just as incorrect IMO, to characterize Nathan's skating that way, than it is to call Jason an artistic skater and a beautiful spinner who can't jump.

The Worlds team that year was originally Adam, Max and Nathan.

Many people at the time felt that Nathan, not Max, should have won the silver at Nationals. On the strength of his artistry. Many felt Nathan was lowballed on the artistic mark in that comp.

Just sayin'. Nathan and his team took it as a step in the process. Moved on.