Plushenko wants to become a legend of figure skating

[bibi24]

Besides, Stojko has always had close competitions with someone. He battled to win in the end which I don't think that should be called "dominance". Dominance is no competitions.

How do you "blow people out of the water" with 6.0 & ordinals system? You can't get a 10 point lead after SP and win by 20-30 points in the end. Back then everyone was in contention, ie. for the top 3 in SP, whoever won the freeskate won the competition.

3 out of 4 wins in consecutive years at worlds is "dominance".

EDIT: I am not so much disputing who's more dominant, I'll give that edge to Plushenko (because of his early rise and longevity). All I am saying is to disregard Stojko being a "dominate" skater during his time doesn't rub well with me haha

 

[Tonichelle]

How do you "blow people out of the water" with 6.0 & ordinals system? You can't get a 10 point lead after SP and win by 20-30 points in the end. Back then everyone was in contention, ie. for the top 3 in SP, whoever won the freeskate won the competition.

which means no one was in contention. jumps in rank in the FS (like Lysacek's jump to fourth, and nearly the podium, in 2006 for example) didn't happen in the old system. And if you drew the short straw and went early, well, tough beans to you.

 

[gmyers]

I don't recall Hamilton saying Goebel deserved Gold... he questioned Plushenko's placement over Tim's, though.

he's also directed to explain why an American didn't win. He has a target audience, and it's not the world. :disapp: NBC is so strongly anti-Russia that their commentators have to toe the line as much as possible... granted Hamilton comes from the old school - but at teh same time he knows skating and what he likes about it... Plushenko, well, isn't Scotty's cup of tea. He's not alone in that opinion. And his opinion didn't sway people's judgement one way or the other on that matter.

I recently watched and because Yagudin replaced a planned quad with a 3A that meant that Yagudin watered down his program and since it was the only thing Hamilton really talked about it seemed like it was Goebel all the way for him.

 

[pangtongfan]

Hamilton who began as a reasonable commentator has morphed into a horrific and agenda pushing, extremely biased announcer, so I agree his on air statements as far as who should have won anything matter little. He also never liked Urmanov whatsoever, and was heavily biased to Stojko who was one of his personal friends, so I agree his opinion on any result between them means nothing. However many people after the 94 Olympics felt Stojko should have won. It was as much a talk as the Kerrigan-Baiul and Gritschuk/Platov vs Usova/Zhulin vs Tovill/Dean results in the aftermath. Elvis was also screwed royally at the 92 Olympics where he deserved atleast the bronze. For what it is worth I was never a fan of Stojko's skating and hated his dominance.

Anyway it doesnt matter. Point is both Plushenko and Stojko were dominant skaters, and Plushenko's competitive record is not that far above Stojko's. The only real difference is the Oly Gold really as others said. It would be exciting to see the two together in their primes. Plushenko is the better skater, but he would have his hands full. Stojko was just as much a competitor, if not more.

And if Stojko's main rivals were unstable jumpers who lacked power and attack like Lambiel and Buttle, poor man Stojko clones like Joubert, or up and comers like 06 Takahashi or 06 Lysacek, Elvis in his prime would have been winning events by 25-30 points or with straight 1st place ordinals as well probably. Plushenko was the only one even good enough to win events from 2003-2006 so little wonder he had an easy time, he didnt have anyone to beat once Yagudin was gone. When he didnt win during that period it was someone like Lambiel popping 3 jumps into singles and winning the 2005 Worlds still by 16 points, or Joubert back when he was only a jumper winning Europeans out of the blue after being down in 7th or 8th in the World rankings previously.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Yagudin was supposed to skate two quads and two 3As. He skated two quads and one 3A. Changed the second planned 3A into 3S, not because Yagudin couldn't do it, but because Yagudin thought it was more than enough. Scott Hamilton said it wasn't enough because Yagudin didn't skate that second 3A, . He thought Plushenko and Goebel could beat Yagudin and said it was a "tough call". It seemed to me that everyone in the audience, everyone in front of the TV, Yagudin himself, and his coach Tarasova all believed that Yagudin has clearly won right after Yagudin's free skate, except Scott Hamilton. And the result proved that everyone was correct but Scott. There was no "tough call" at all. Yagudin got so many 6.0s. Yagudin was actually under-marked in his SP. That was pretty funny. Anti-Russia or not, Scott was definitely wearing a colored nationalism glasses.

 

[pangtongfan]

Scott Hamilton and Sandra Bezic should be assigned to commentating regionals or something. More appropriate for their skill level in the booth. Bezic used to be decent too but is now a dried up old hag with a snotty condescending tone about everything. Button is in his 80s and would still far eclipse both.

 

[evangeline]

How do you "blow people out of the water" with 6.0 & ordinals system? You can't get a 10 point lead after SP and win by 20-30 points in the end. Back then everyone was in contention, ie. for the top 3 in SP, whoever won the freeskate won the competition.

It's completely possible to "blow people out of the water" under 6.0 and the ordinals system. Someone like Alexei Yagudin at the 2002 Olympics, with straight first-place ordinals (and multiple 6.0s!), blew his competition out of the water and into the stratosphere. Conversely, the original 5-4 split in favour of B/S over S/P in pairs at SLC was a very close decision and certainly did not blow anything out of any aquatic bodies whatsoever.

As for Scott Hamilton at SLC, he was definitely saying that Yagudin had probably conceded the LP to both Plushenko and Goebel.

 

[Tonichelle]

Put it fully into context - after the pairs debacle, the commentators weren't about to call a winner for the rest of the events. Also consider they had pretty much bagged Yagudin for SOI - Scott has always been notorious in his favoring of his cast of merry skaters. There's no reason to believe he was anti-Yagudin and pro-Goebel. More like overly cautious after the mess he and Sandy caused in the previous event.

 

[gmyers]

Yagudin was supposed to skate two quads and two 3As. He skated two quads and one 3A. Changed the second planned 3A into 3S, not because Yagudin couldn't do it, but because Yagudin thought it was more than enough. Scott Hamilton said it wasn't enough because Yagudin didn't skate that second 3A, . He thought Plushenko and Goebel could beat Yagudin and said it was a "tough call". It seemed to me that everyone in the audience, everyone in front of the TV, Yagudin himself, and his coach Tarasova all believed that Yagudin has clearly won right after Yagudin's free skate, except Scott Hamilton. And the result proved that everyone was correct but Scott. There was no "tough call" at all. Yagudin got so many 6.0s. Yagudin was actually under-marked in his SP. That was pretty funny. Anti-Russia or not, Scott was definitely wearing a colored nationalism glasses.

I guess I didn't watch recently enough as I got jumps wrong but not the commentary really. LOL.

Also isn't it sad that both Goebel and Honda had near ending injuries in 2004 causing them to miss worlds. So neither could defend their medals.

 

[pangtongfan]

Only someone devoid of a brain would not know Yagudin's amazing performance, even without the second triple axel, would blow away Plushenko's difficult but rather sloppy performance (with mistakes), never mind Goebel's which didnt even take a first place vote off Plushenko, have a clean triple axel, and had a 5.4 and 5.5 for presentation. There is no defense for Hamilton's stupidity there, nor his stupidity in helping to create the pairs scandal for the highly overrated Sale & Pelletier, but that is another topic.

 

[wmsb]

I think the topic of Hamilton comes from his saying about Stojko should have won in 94......everyone can have his opinion, but let's focus on existing facts.

Then.....if Stojko can be regarded as Legend???

If he cann't, so in this case, the difference between "legend" and "non-legend" is just the Oly gold?

 

[pangtongfan]

I think Stojko can be called a legend in skating. First man to land a quad combo, first man to land a quad-triple, won Olympic silver with injured groin so bad he could barely walk in one of the gutsiest performances ever, 3 time World Champion, 2 time Olympic silver medalist, competed in 4 Olympics, pushed mens skating forward with his technical ability and mental strength, one of the most popular skaters on Champions on Ice tour for many years. Heck he is the biggest reason guys like Yagudin, Plushenko, and others were throwing quads left and right in their era, Stojko made it neccessary to win for the longest while, which is why seeing Evan win with such a performance was hard for him to take at the time.

And an Olympic Gold is not neccessary to be a legend:

Michelle Kwan
Janet Lynn
Irina Slutskaya
Midori Ito
Kurt Browning
Elvis Stojko
Brian Orser

I would say all those skaters are legendary in their own way and are still household names today.

 

[Tonichelle]

I think the topic of Hamilton comes from his saying about Stojko should have won in 94......everyone can have his opinion, but let's focus on existing facts.

again, putting into context - most N. American commentators agreed, and continue to agree about that one... it all comes down to taste. technical (stojko) over theatrical (urmanov)... pretty sure if Scott could have his way Browning wouldn't have flubbed the short and would have finally gotten the dang title.

 

[pangtongfan]

Actually Boitano winning again would have been Scotts first choice. Browning winning was just most everyone elses. Petrenko winning was not my preference, but what I thought would happen. Oh well thats sport. The only way to make Chan beatable in Sochi is to go back to the 6.0 system though. Fat chance of that.

 

[ciocio]

The predictions about Sochi are the most ridiculous thing I´ve ever seen. It takes only one serious injury and Plushenko, Chan, Kozuka, etc, can kiss Sochi goodbye.:disapp:

 

[seniorita]

Plushenko, well, isn't Scotty's cup of tea. He's not alone in that opinion. And his opinion didn't sway people's judgement one way or the other on that matter.

Well yes Plu was not his cup of tea and he was not alone, but that can be said for everyone and it doesnt justify anything. In my opinion IF you are a commentator you have to leave your personal preferences aside and report the competitions and what is happening.. All commentators belong to one country, but not all of them have the tedancy to gush about their favs and diminish the rest. Anyway it is his own style, I have respect for Hamilton.

There's no reason to believe he was anti-Yagudin and pro-Goebel. More like overly cautious after the mess he and Sandy caused in the previous event.

You said he was anti-Plush, so why I cant believe he was anti-Yag and pro-Goebel? The fact is that PLu was doing since 1998 the COI tour. Did you see them in Worlds 2011, all hugs and kisses? Plushy went to SOI last winter

again, putting into context - most N. American commentators agreed, and continue to agree about that one... it all comes down to taste. technical (stojko) over theatrical (urmanov)...

Times and taste change, I thought 2010 time most N.A commentators were all about all around artistic skater(EVAN) versus technical (PLU).
One > thing I remember for VAncouver is his commentary in gala about Plushenko, after a week of making clear his preference before and during competition, in the gala the difference was so striking that my first thought was Well now Evan is OC, we can praise Plu again.

 

[Olympia]

Anyway it doesnt matter. Point is both Plushenko and Stojko were dominant skaters, and Plushenko's competitive record is not that far above Stojko's. The only real difference is the Oly Gold really as others said. It would be exciting to see the two together in their primes. Plushenko is the better skater, but he would have his hands full. Stojko was just as much a competitor, if not more.

On this I agree. One trait Plushenko and Stojko have in common is absolute coolness under pressure. Of all the people I would wish to see compete with Plushenko in his prime, Stojko probably leads the list for that reason. The fans would probably have to sit all the way back in the last row or be burned by the blast-furnace intensity generated by these two. In terms of style, there's no competition: Plushenko has the greater measure of correctness of movement and jump positions. But Stojko is not just a jumping machine like Goebel (whose unfortunate slouch always made him look a bit ungraceful on the ice). Elvis has a roughneck style that suits him--he's built of solid muscle, like a fireplug, and would look silly holding the limb extensions that look natural on the slimmer, Russian-trained Plushenko. Plushenko always reminds me of one of those nineteenth-century violin virtuosos who traveled in a private railroad car and performed before the crowned heads of Europe. Stojko is a dirt-bike rider who probably could build a house with his own hands.

 

[let`s talk]

There is no defense for Hamilton's stupidity there, nor his stupidity in helping to create the pairs scandal for the highly overrated Sale & Pelletier, but that is another topic.

Here I agree with you fully. But let's not judge harshly. It's a known fact that people without turmors say stupid things too!

 

[seniorita]

It's a known fact that people without turmors say stupid things too!

?

yeah...and it doesnt need to go that far away to see it, this thread wil do.

 

[pangtongfan]

On another note a few edges I think Stojko has over Plushenko:

1. Elvis clearly has better spins. It isnt even really a debate.
2. Elvis at his best had as good or arguably better footwork.
3. Elvis had more sincere programs which were true to himself and his own image of skating, even if you didnt like them or their concepts. Plushenkos often were superficial in a sense.

That said I do still consider Plushenko the better skater overall probably. And on that note I end my comments on Stojko who I never even liked anyway and dont care to discuss any further than I already have. Just am glad most are apparently wise enough to see he was indeed the dominant skater of his own era like Plushenko was in the post Yagdin era, and his competitive record does not lag far behind Plushenko as a few initially suggested. He deserves his due for that.