Problems with skate judging? (Two Hersh articles)

[visaliakid]

Problems with skate judging? Pairs champs can count them - by Philip Hersh, Chicago Tribune. The Pair he interviews is McLaughlin and Brubaker.

Their candid answers, which emerged in the form of a progressive call and antiphon during an interview at their training base in Colorado Springs, resonated even more because their partnership has prospered competitively during the NJS era.

``The judging system started off in such a good direction,'' Brubaker said, ``and now it just seems there are so many rules that. . .

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/sports_globetrotting/2009/01/problems-with-s.html

 

[Mathman]

"call and antiphon"

 

[rain]

Interesting. I have to say that of all the disciplines, I think the NJS has been, ironically, the worst for pairs. It is one I barely enjoy watching anymore. M/B are absolutely right that a lot of the programs look the same (though I would argue that there is still some room for creativity, and the fault for the supreme lack of it in pairs these days does to some extent fall on the skaters as well as the system).

What annoys me are the ugly positions/changes etc. such as the cluttering of the death spiral to the point where teams are getting points for having hideously slow and awful ones — but who can tell because it's not the classic position? Well the judges should, but they're not. There should be a deduction for "ugly" lol.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Well, the art of Pairs Skating is now totally involved in acrobatics and the skaters show off the acrobatics for the vaudeville-appreciative audience as well as the Gymnastics-like judges. I no longer look at Pairs as I did when it was a ballet-like pas de deuxs.

Brubaker has the correct idea: Go for the points; Not for the Artistique.

Except for Shen and Zhao, I have not seen a Pairs Team that can make those tricks look like part of a ballet pas de deux or even a flamenco paso

go for it Rockne, you're not expected to win the Olys till 2014, and keep an eye on those acrobats.

 

[visaliakid]

As an aside, I can guarantee you (from sources that sent me and others notice of this article, by email) that all articles being written on the subject of the IJS and it's impact on the sport are being circulated to top level skating officials around the globe and within the halls of the ISU. :thumbsup:

 

[lmarie086]

They actually do raise a lot of good points. Typically I prefer to watch a pairs SP rather than LP but I like the LPs better this season because there are no spirals. You can definitely see skaters counting through the spiral sequence, trying to get the points. Spirals (including death spirals) as they are now take up valuable time in a program where the pair can actually be doing something more to interpret the music.

I think it's good that they are being vocal about their opinion. Perhaps it will do some good if taken into account for changes in the future. I sure hope so.

Go M/B!

 

[sillylionlove]

I have to agree. It seems like all pairs programs are the same. In fact, the men's and women's programs are so similiar as well.

 

[Buttercup]

I have to agree. It seems like all pairs programs are the same. In fact, the men's and women's programs are so similiar as well.

Seriously? You really think all the men are alike and all the women are alike, or that the men's programs are similar to the ladies? I'll guess it's the former, and while I agree it's true to some extent for the ladies, I absolutely disagree about the men, where the variety of styles and programs is pretty impressive (even with the occasional cookie-cutter step sequences thrown in).

The last event in which I really got to watch the men skate was CoR, and I have to say, Joubert has a different style from Verner, who's not at all like Preaubert or KvdP, neither of whom skates like Abbott, or Berntsson, or Sergei Voronov. And that's just one event!

As for the pairs programs lacking originality, it is true to some degree. But I agree with rain - this can be attributed to the current field at least as much as the judging system.

 

[Mafke]

IIRC some time ago, an informal poll found that CoP was best (or least bad) for Dance, then came Men, Ladies and that CoP was least good (or worst) for Pairs.

The acrobatic sickness started taking over pairs a long time ago (and some wonderful pairs like S/Z and S/P played a role in that but I've hardly been able to watch in the last few years. I think Pairs is a discipline that really needs to go back in time (or in some new direction) or it might just disappear or end up fused with Dance.

The current field might be part of the problem but the effects of CoP are also shaping the field (which means the current problem might not be going away).

 

[gkelly]

The acrobatic sickness started taking over pairs a long time ago (and some wonderful pairs like S/Z and S/P played a role in that

Heck, Irina Rodnina and partners played a role in that. Pair skating has long been about acrobatic tricks and largely about what the lady does above the ice rather than on it. Which is why it's always been the least interesting discipline to me even though it's often the most spectacular.

Also, the well-balanced program rules have been more restrictive for pairs than for other disciplines since the late 1990s, so the more restrictive limits that came in with the new judging system for the other disciplines had less of an effect for pairs, who were already all doing pretty much the same numbers of the same kinds of elements.

I think Pairs is a discipline that really needs to go back in time (or in some new direction) or it might just disappear or end up fused with Dance.

In what direction would you like to see the discipline develop?

 

[merrybari]

As an aside, I can guarantee you (from sources that sent me and others notice of this article, by email) that all articles being written on the subject of the IJS and it's impact on the sport are being circulated to top level skating officials around the globe and within the halls of the ISU. :thumbsup:

This is good to hear. Wonder how long it will take for the ISU "powers that be" to open their ears and really listen, and then DO something about what they hear.

What's been said so far has seemed to fall on deaf ears, or when they HAVE listened the "fixes," imo, have made things worse not better.

 

[enlight78]

I agree about how trying to get levels 4s can limit options,especially when most are trying to do it the easiest and fastest way. And with the current judging you can't confidently trade in higher levels for higher pcs instead. Their other arguements sounds like problems from training. l don't know how much more difficult it is for a skater.As a dancer we are ask do most of the things named in the article all time and don't think twice about it. Maybe it would help if they choreograph the program first and then found music that fits. They wouldn't have to worry about following the music. The music will follow them. After so many practices some of the moves should be automactic.

 

[sillylionlove]

Seriously? You really think all the men are alike and all the women are alike, or that the men's programs are similar to the ladies? I'll guess it's the former, and while I agree it's true to some extent for the ladies, I absolutely disagree about the men, where the variety of styles and programs is pretty impressive (even with the occasional cookie-cutter step sequences thrown in).

The last event in which I really got to watch the men skate was CoR, and I have to say, Joubert has a different style from Verner, who's not at all like Preaubert or KvdP, neither of whom skates like Abbott, or Berntsson, or Sergei Voronov. And that's just one event!

As for the pairs programs lacking originality, it is true to some degree. But I agree with rain - this can be attributed to the current field at least as much as the judging system.

I guess I meant that for a majority of the men...it's like...I have seen that spin a million times today..it's not so much the style as they are all different...but they all do the same elements...(I know that there are only a certain amount of jumps...so those don't count) but the spins are all the same etc.

 

[gkelly]

I guess I meant that for a majority of the men...it's like...I have seen that spin a million times today..it's not so much the style as they are all different...but they all do the same elements...(I know that there are only a certain amount of jumps...so those don't count) but the spins are all the same etc.

Under the old system, you probably saw the same simple spins just as often, but they were often so boring or were over so quickly they didn't register.

 

[gsrossano]

Under the old system, you probably saw the same simple spins just as often, but they were often so boring or were over so quickly they didn't register.

From the point of view of someone who has been taking photos of the same programs over and over for 25 years and now has a closet full of several million pictures, I agree that the programs under 6.0 also were very repetitive. The same simple spins over and over. The same SP content attempted from every senior skater. Content repeated from year to year, just set to different music.

I think what makes the difference now, is that under 6.0 programs were not full of such horrendously ugly stuff. If you look at the same simple but attractive thing over and over, it's not a burden (even pleasant if it expresses the music nicely and/or is well done), but to have to look at the same ugly stuff over and over (that often doesn't even fit the music) has become unbearable.

As an aside, I can guarantee you (from sources that sent me and others notice of this article, by email) that all articles being written on the subject of the IJS and it's impact on the sport are being circulated to top level skating officials around the globe and within the halls of the ISU. :thumbsup:

Probably so they can identify, seek out and punish the people who write such things! As one who has been on the receiving end of the punishement part twice last year I could tell you a lot about how that works!

 

[gkelly]

I think what makes the difference now, is that under 6.0 programs were not full of such horrendously ugly stuff. If you look at the same simple but attractive thing over and over, it's not a burden (even pleasant if it expresses the music nicely and/or is well done), but to have to look at the same ugly stuff over and over (that often doesn't even fit the music) has become unbearable.

How to discourage ugly stuff?

Seems to me the simplest way would be to adjust the scale of values to make sure it's always more valuable to achieve a higher GOE than to earn a higher level. And encourage judges to reward beauty with higher GOEs.

 

[gsrossano]

How to discourage ugly stuff?

The ugly stuff in spins and sequences comes from a few of the available features. Change those bullets so that ugly does not meet the bullet and does not get extra points, and ugly will disappear overnight.

 

[Taan]

Champion skaters brand their sport's shortcomings

:frown2: :frown2:
http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/sports_globetrotting/2009/01/champion-skater.html

 

[Mathman]

^ Thanks for the post, Taan.

Excerpts:

When I talk to people on the street about skating, there's one word they know, and that's the quad. From a business standpoint, I think it is important we try to promote athletes working on the quad. It is something recognizable to the general public.

The sport of figure skating has become some kind of national math contest, and this judging system is killing the sport.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Since Icenetwork has been able to produce the Planned Program Sheets, it is easy to see just where the skaters are at for their base values. I have to agree with Buttercup, who writes that there is very little difference one is going to see in the programs from these sheets.

Yet, there are deductions to the Base Values by Tech Panel and judges, some automatic, others according to the whims of the judges.

There are also additions to the Base Values - nothing automatic that I know of, but definitely in accordance with the whims of the judges. Since there is no input from the Tech Panel here, we move on to their Power again: they oversee the Levels.

So even though all the skaters look very similar to begin with, the automatic deductions, GoEs (+as well as-) and Levels come together to form a final score.

Did I get all that correctly?

Acrobatic Dance is the oldest form of Dance since recorded time. It is quantifiable because some tricks are more difficult than others. Since figure skating builds on other forms of Dance (nothing much original in figure skating except the blades) ballet-like, flamenco-like, folk-like and others, and of course the acrobatic-like. Imo, they blended well under the 6.0 system, but to win nowadays in the Sport a skater has to incorporate difficult tricks for the most points - go Acrobatics!

It is true, there have always been a slice of acrobatics in the sport of figure skating. But to get the points to win, one has to work on bigger tricks and the Levels. A pair team can work on a Bereznaya/Sikhularize style of pairs but the team must cut out some of the tricks and work on Levels of what tricks are left.

I suppose every twelve years (3 Olys) there will be a team who can combine all the point getting tricks and still look like B&S - maybe. Murkhotova/Trankov?